All over but the shoutin’

Obamalina: President-elect Barack Obama at his recent rally in Asheville. With help from Buncombe voters, he became the first Democrat to carry the state since 1976. Photo By Jonathan Welch

It was a great night for feeling Blue in Buncombe. A surge in voter turnout, fueled by intense interest in the presidential contest, paid off for local Democrats the evening of Nov. 4. When the votes were counted, the party started celebrating its near-total sweep of local and state offices.

And when it became clear that Barack Obama had bested John McCain not only among Buncombe voters but also in North Carolina and the nation at large, progressive politicos were ecstatic. At the Asheville Brewing Co. on Coxe Avenue, a crowd of hundreds cheered and teared up as news coverage of the returns was projected on a wall. As Obama began his acceptance speech, the onlookers chanted, “Yes we can! Yes we can!” and then “U.S.A.! U.S.A!.”

How the Democratic groundswell will shape local politics remains to be scene, of course, but clearly, the political landscape has changed. In the following pages, Xpress’ election roundup explores who won local races, how they did it, and what the future may hold for local government.

 

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About Jon Elliston
An Asheville-based mountain journalist: Former Mountain Xpress managing editor. Investigations and open government editor at Carolina Public Press. Senior contributing editor at WNC magazine.

74 thoughts on “All over but the shoutin’

  1. Chad Nesbitt

    Although this election is going to come back and bite everybody in the rear (including the Democrats) I am happy for black Americans. I only hope that they really look at what party has helped the black community over the years.

    The Republican party was the leader in the civil rights era of the 1960’s.
    Martin Luther King Jr. himself was a Republican

    Democrats killed over 300 black Americans in Wilmington 1898. The NC Democrat Party still to this day honor the white supremacist that led the killings. They honor this man with their largest fundraiser of the year, Asheville’s Vance Aycock Dinner.

    During the Clinton administration those that made under $30,000.00 a year received
    “extra earned income” depending on how many dependents you had. At that time they could get back around $1500.00 a year.

    Under the Bush administration they received over $4000.00.

    I predict by 2010 the local Democrat Commissioners will have us regulated to death and it won’t be Gant that is pushing the envelope. It will be Holly Jones. These Democrats are pushing the poor and middle class residence out of Buncombe County.

    Welcome to the Hilton Head of the mountains.

  2. Chad, I thought you would use this space to talk about Obama’s grandmother being “kept on ice”. Care to defend those comments?

  3. Chad Nesbitt

    J Bugg,

    Have you heard of the funeral? Obama talked so highly of her during the campaign.

    It takes at least 3 days to prepare a body and funeral arrangements. Obama had plenty of time to attend the funeral. Know what he was doing on the 3rd day after her death? Having dinner with his wife at their favorite restaurant in Chicago.

    This is the elected President of the United States and no one covers the funeral of the person his talked about as his inspiration?

    Try this – type in “obama grandmother funeral” in a search engine.
    I could not find anything except that she died on the eve of the election.

    I’m no conspiracy theorist here but
    I just don’t buy it.

    Not to be cold but it’s all about the show.

  4. Jim Shura

    Just go away Chad-

    When my stepfather died, the viewing happened 36 hours later. His ashes went into Arlington 15 hours after that. It could have been sooner if we hadn’t wanted to allow time for others to get there.

    You are full of it and you are wrong.

  5. Chad Nesbitt

    Stick your tongue back in your mouth Mr. Yuck.
    Just answer this fair question.

    Why did the media not cover Obama’s “inspiration” grandmothers funeral?

    With all the paparazzi and media attention Obama gets no one took a picture of Obama’s grandmothers funeral? No one talked to Obama’s family members that were there?

    Here we go, take a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brAOfhatU4A

    Yes I think she passed away. But it wasn’t on the eve of the election. It was back in September when Obama went back to Hawaii to see her. Sounds crazy I know but something just doesn’t ad up.

    Sympathy for a candidate before an election? Hmmmmm.
    Please prove me wrong because I want to be wrong.
    I don’t want to think somebody would
    stoop this low.
    But growing up in politics, I know just how low politicians and their staff
    can get to win an election.

  6. Chad Nesbitt

    Mr. Yuck,

    By the way, sorry about your stepfather.
    Seriously.

    Chad

  7. But growing up in politics, I know just how low politicians and their staff can get to win an election.

    Do you also know how low partisan hacks will go to try to make other people look bad through innuendo?

  8. Chad Nesbitt

    J Bugg,

    I sure do! Just look at what the liberals tried to do to Sarah Palin.
    “The baby’s not really hers it’s the daughters”, “$150,000.00 on cloths”, “Africa a continent?”

    Or let’s bring it local – “Chad Nesbitt hates gay’s”, “Nesbitt is a racist”, “Chad Nesbitt advocates discrimination”. Hooligans wrote those and they are simply not true.

    And Bugg, what was that you said about Mumpower? Ha, Ha.

    Believe me, if I get on television and say the District Attorney is corrupt or a local politician is doing something sneaky, it is no innuendo, it’s a fact and I can always back it up. But when it comes to Obama’s grandmother, I’m simply asking a fair question that no one here (so far) can answer.

    Sorry Elison for not staying on topic.
    Bugg asked. So I’m answering.

  9. Gordon Smith

    Chad,

    You said, regarding the Employee Non-Discrimination Act: “Carolina Stompers plans to take this issue on full force. The future of our children and Christian morality are at stake. If organizations like these succeed, lawmakers will make it a hate crime to teach the word of God.”

    You certainly do advocate discrimination against gays and lesbians. If not, I’m sure you’ll join the rest of us in supporting marriage rights and non-discrimination laws.

    You really can’t claim to love gay people and then deny them basic human rights.

    So you think Obama killed his grandmother or what? You’re running on pure speculation, so you may as well go over the next cliff.

  10. Zigopolis

    Dear Chad,

    I’m not trying to make you nuts, but if you type the words you mentioned into google and then take hit the news key you’ll get the information you need about services for his grandmother.

    To help you cut to the chase, here’s the link from the local Honolulu press: http://www.starbulletin.com/news/hawaiinews/20081113_Dunham_service_set_for_tomorrow.html

    I’m sure the memorial service will get some press as will Obama returning to HI in a month to have a private service.

  11. Chad Nesbitt

    Gordon,

    Glad to see you found your lap top.
    Or did some of that “spread the wealth” money already come in and you bought a new one?

    You said
    <>You really can’t claim to love gay people and then deny them basic human rights.<>

    There is a difference between human rights and human choices. I could really care less who you have sex with Gordon. That’s your business. But when you make it my business I have a problem with that.

    We have a human right to defend ourselves.
    We have a human right to pro create.
    We have a human right to freedom.

    It is a choice to kill someone.
    It is a choice in the way you have sex.
    It is a choice to be responsible for our actions.

    The Employee Non-discrimation Act would allow men or women to dress up as the opposite sex and work in a state run work place. For instance a 3rd grade teacher. It would also bring on same sex bathrooms. The organization I was referring to that pushes legislation like this is Equality NC. And yes, they want it to be a hate crime to teach the word of God.

    Let’s face it. Today’s politics really boils down to God. Do you believe in what God say’s or not.
    Most Americans do. Liberals like you can’t stand that because Christians are the #1 thing in the way of the leftist agenda. That’s why you and your friends try to make fun and discredit me and the 1512 members of the Carolina Stompers. It is very evident with the way Sarah Palin was treated by the liberals.

    Sorry Gordon. You have the “choice” to have group sex in front of children at the Folsome Street Fair in San Francisco. But I have the “human right” to defend those children from seeing it.

  12. Chad Nesbitt

    Zigopolis,

    Thank you for the info.

    I noticed the article was just published today 11/13/08.

    According to the article – I guess if Obama can wait a month to have a service for his “inspiration” I guess he could wait a month and the night of the election to announce her death.

  13. Chad Nesbitt

    Sorry again Ellison. Off topic.
    But like a word in your title article, at least we are “shoutin”.

    Uh oh, gota go. I hear Hoolie crying. He’s lining up his friends to post against me and “try” to shut down my freedom speech like he did at his website. HERE YE, HERE YE, HEAR YE,
    HERE COMES HOOLIE’S “FAIRNESS DOCTRINE” BRINGIN ON THE CHANGE!

  14. Gordon Smith

    “Let’s face it. Today’s politics really boils down to God. Do you believe in what God say’s or not.”

    I guess if you’re an evangelical Christian (52.1% of whom believe that Obama is or was a Muslim), then you want to pretend that it’s all about Christianity.

    There are a lot of religions in our nation, and a lot of people who don’t do any worshiping at all. That’s o.k. though because we’ve got freedom of religion, and there’s no reason one particular brand of Christianity ought to hold sway over the entire nation. You, The Chad, evidently want to have a theocracy in which laws are based on your interpretation of a single religious text rather than on Constitutional freedoms.

    How’s the fight against James Taylor going?

  15. Ashevegasjoe

    Chad,
    It is truly remarkable that, in the same post, you can decry the attacks on yourself and Palin, and then put forth this crap of a conspiracy theory concerning Obama’s Grandma.
    If it were done for sympathy votes you’d think he would have announced her death sooner. As a third of the voters had already voted, and many more didn’t hear the news until after the election. This accusation is on par with Michael Savage claiming that Obama actually flew to Hawaii to change his birth certificate.
    You will never be able to make a claim of persecution, when you so freely hurl b.s. You guys lost because people are tired of this negative, “Dolein” trash-talking (and because your movement is bankrupt of new ideas). I almost forgot, you also lost because your base is old-white people, as Latinos, blacks, youths, and women were tired of the tiresome GOP.
    By the by, I think you are sad, whiny losers, and it makes me smile.

  16. Ashevegasjoe

    I almost forgot your first ridiculous claim about Republicans championing civil rights. I guess the work of Robert Kennedy, Jesse Jackson, John Kennedy, and Al Sharpton slipped your mind. Not to mention the 90+% of black voters who voted for a Democrat. I guess they just did it because he’s black, and they are unable to see through the lies the Democrats have tricked them with. While you and your superior intellect have a grasp of the “truth”?!! Once again, I smile.

  17. Chad Nesbitt

    Ashevegasjoe,

    You said,
    <>If it were done for sympathy votes you’d think he would have announced her death sooner.<>

    Wrong. It’s all in the marketing. Leaving the campaign in September and being with his dying grandmother for 3 day’s showed the country he has compassion. Meanwhile, he left to see her while all the Ayer’s controversy just got hot. Announcing her death on the eve of the election reminded voters of his compassion and his “inspiration”. If it wasn’t marketing then it was one hell of a damn coincidence.

    You said,
    <>This accusation is on par with Michael Savage claiming that Obama actually flew to Hawaii to change his birth certificate. You will never be able to make a claim of persecution,
    when you so freely hurl b.s.<>

    Here you go from the largest on-line news organization in the world – http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80928

    You said,
    <>I almost forgot, you also lost because your base is old-white people, as Latinos, blacks, youths, and women were tired of the tiresome GOP.<>

    Here you go “just the facts” – http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/president/
    Gee…. that must mean the GOP has 58,182,349 old-white people? Hmmmm….
    That’s 58 million in case you didn’t get that.

    ANNOUNCING: The superior marketing strategy of Barack Obama – All the media except for 1/2 of Fox News. Acorn and the registering of over 400 thousand 2nd graders and Disney characters. The propaganda of moveon.org. The over 600 million dollars of campaign contributions from God knows who. The magic of Hollywood. And the simple fact that Obama is one smooth person and can read from a tele prompter.
    BROUGHT THE CHANGE ON BABY! Never mind that we don’t know who he is.

    From your second post –
    You said,
    <>I almost forgot your first ridiculous claim about Republicans championing civil rights..<>

    Here you go – I’m a proud member of this organization. http://www.nationalblackrepublicans.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=pages.DYK&x=2741306

    Would you like the telephone number of
    Buncombe County Republican
    Chairman Dr. Tim Johnson?
    He’s black and a very good friend of mine.
    I’m sure he can any questions you may have.

    You said,
    <>By the by, I think you are sad, whiny losers, and it makes me smile.<>

    By the by, I think you need to get your facts straight and you make me and others LOL.

    God I hope you are not Jason Sanford Ashvegas. Jason is smarter than the posts you posted.

  18. Chad Nesbitt

    Gordon Smith wrote,
    <>I guess if you’re an evangelical Christian (52.1% of whom believe that Obama is or was a Muslim), then you want to pretend that its all about Christianity.<>

    Wrong again Hoolie. I said believe in God. “Newsweek Poll” say’s 91% of Americans do.
    Here you go – http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070402/poll-9-of-10-americans-believe-in-god-nearly-half-rejects-evolution.htm

    Gordon smith wrote,
    <>You, The Chad, evidently want to have a theocracy in which laws are based on your interpretation of a single religious text rather than on Constitutional freedoms.<>

    Last time I looked, the Constitution was a written document. Have you been to Washington and looked at the national monuments? God is written all over them. We are not changing just because you, The Hoolie, want it changed.

    Gordon said,
    <>How’s the fight against James Taylor going?<>

    Very well thank you. Complaint filed at the state. Have you had an Starbucks Coffee lately?
    http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/off-topic/875352

  19. Chad Nesbitt

    Here you go chalkbox,
    http://www.carolinastompers.com

    We are under some construction so pardon the old links. New look is coming. We are taking contributions for a spell checker by the way.
    We were going pay Hoolie to proof read but under the new Obama tax structure, we can’t afford him.

  20. evolved

    Are you saying people voted for Obama because his grandmother died? What ever happened to that old phrase “judge not, lest ye be judged?” Why don’t Christians understand that Jesus was a bare-footed hippie with dreads that hung around with prostitutes and wanted everything to be chill? He wanted us to love our brothers, not judge them, and give love without condition to ALL GOD’s CHILDREN. I’m not even Christian but I know God loves us all the same. (Maybe he likes Obama the best) :)

  21. Trey

    Chad, and people like Chad, are the reason Obama won the election.

    Thanks Chad.

  22. dave

    Good point, trey.

    This election cycle has introduced me to the twisted world of psuedo-right wing partisans. boy its bizarre. Did you see bill oreilly on the Daily Show last night? Its a great example if this; delusional denial, shifting logic, personal attacks, all instead of just promoting what they believe. Since they dont really believe in anything. that requires critical thinking skills.

    I’d much rather see these people just admit they are hateful, fearful, bigots. I could respect that more, and it would make their posts much shorter-avoiding the long, hypocritical, self-contradicting tap-dance sessions.

    This is just the beginning, though. its going to get A LOT worse. I suggest listening to Limbaugh at least once a week so your can tell when people are parroting him word for word. its very entertaining, actually. They usually have no sings of independent thought.

    Have you heard of the SC preacher who has told his flock they cant receive communion if they voted Obama?

  23. Thomas Marx

    In a year there will be shoutin alright. Shouts calling for the impeachment of this Chicago thug politician!

  24. Ashevegasjoe

    Marx,
    there are already shouts for his impeachment, that should show you how rational they are. The only people who will call for his impeachment, are the same right-wing nuts who tried to impeach Clinton without the support of the populace, and failed.

    Chad,
    Glad to see you worked up in a hysteria. First of all, I am not Jason, my name is.. Joe. Secondly, my assertion was not that all 58 million Republicans are old and white. My claim, that is irrefutable, is that the Republican party is overwhelmingly old and white, and with the core issues, has failed to bring in black, latino, or young voters. This idea has been echoed on several occasions by conservative columniist George Will. To try to deny it by pointing out your one black friend is funny. And, I’m already familiar with him, as he showed his psychotic delusions by asserting people were having their votes bought with a free concert, with absolutely no proof (much like all of your claims about Obama).
    Also, your announcement that Obama is good at marketing is a little late. Here’s another news flash McCain is a flip-flopper and Palin isn’t intelligent enough to manage geo-political concerns. Obama ran a well-organized campaign, and appealed with a populist message. Just like G.W. did for the last eight years. You just resent being beat at your own game. Lastly, if after two years of campaigning, 56 debates, ABC news specials, and all the dirt possible being dug up by Clinton and the GOP, you don’t think you know enough about Obama, you never will. What do you want? Favorite sexual position, what he wanted to be in first grade? The guy has been under the microscope for a long time, and the best dirt you can come up with is that he served on a board with a respected professor from Illinois. I mean to say, if William Ayers is a terrorist, why is he not being investigated and detained by the FBI or CIA? Why are people not protesting at his University? Because this was a last desparate attempt to sling some mud, and thankfully, most reasonable Americans didn’t buy into it. You of course, ate it up like a cat-head biscuit in gopher gravy.

    He is your President-elect, show him respect, if you don’t like it, “git out”.

  25. Chad Nesbitt

    Ashvegasjoe,

    First of all thank God your not Sanford. I think sanford is an Obama supporter but he is a hell of a lot smarter (and get’s his facts straight) than you. Needless to say thank you for a straight forward post.

    Fact #1 – Now don’t be shocked when you see this.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBd0IhWQ3zA&eurl=http://carolinastompers.com/news.php?start_from=30&ucat;=&archive;=&subaction;=&id;=&

    Pissst…. “I see young people”. Click on the “watch in high quality”. YOU CAN REALY SEE THEM CLEARLY. YOUTH! YOUTH! YOUTH! THOUSANDS!

    Here’s another one, scroll down when you get there and look at the young people in the photo.
    http://carolinastompers.com/news.php?start_from=30&ucat;=&archive;=&subaction;=&id;=&

    You said “respected professor from Illinois”.
    Do what?
    Fact #2
    http://www.newsmax.com/headlines/fbi_obama_ayers_/2008/10/14/140252.html

    Yes he is my president. “My” President. He works for me! When I see one of my employee’s screw up I call them on it and or fire them. They work for me and represent me to the public.
    There is no difference in my President.

    Get you facts straight please.

  26. dave

    “Young voters preferred Obama over John McCain by 68 percent to 30 percent — the highest share of the youth vote obtained by any candidate since exit polls began reporting results by age in 1976, according to CIRCLE, a non-partisan organization that promotes research on the political engagement of Americans between ages 15 and 25.”

    from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27525497/

    Get you facts straight please.

    You see, chad, C. anderson, et al. We are not interested in allowing your vocal minority in shouting out the real issue of impeachment, which would fall on the CURRENT administration. Can you explain to me how the Bush Administration, which is still in power, by the way, doesnt deserve to be impeached? Or better yet, thrown in Prison? Not that I think that would ever happen. But if you want to talk about defending this country, why not talk about the administration that has decimated the Constitution, and made a mockery of civil rights in the past 8 years?

    Oh, I know why. You have been programmed by Rush Limbaugh and public schooling to not have well-developed critical thinking skills.
    Its truly laughable. Pitiful. Delusional.
    Read a book, for Allah’s sake. I’m sure that’ll get your goat.

  27. Chad Nesbitt

    Dave,

    Well if MSNBC say’s so….. How much did Obama give that network anyway? Whatever…

    Anything you see that is cool to young people has Obama written all over it. Hell, even video games have him on it. It’s called buying an election with over 600 million dollars. Talk about being programmed. That is really is delusional.

    Enlighten me on how Bush decimated the Constitution and made a mockery of civil rights.
    I gotta hear this.

    Oh let me guess – The Patriot Act and of course the gay marriage thing right.

    Come fight me over here on the gay thing.
    http://www.mountainx.com/news/2008/anti_proposition_8_protest_saturday_in_pritchard_park

    I’m trying to keep my fights in order. Ha.

  28. Ashevegasjoe

    Chad,
    I’ve seen you complain a number of times about liberals calling you names, and yet you have no qualms questioning my intellegience. By the way, if you feel the need to question intellect, please research the difference between “your” and “you’re”. Also, I read in another post that you would hit someone “beside the head” with a 2×4. Your intellegience is truly staggering.
    I also noted that you like to post links, rather than engage in original dialogue– how surprizing. The numbers are clear, and Rush and George Will recognize them, why can’t you. Your base is old and white, and thankfully, dying off. If there isn’t a complete re-tooling of the GOP and it’s leadership, you have many more butt-kickings coming. How does it feel to watch your movement die? I think I here a wahmbulance coming. HA! Please keep beating the illegal immigration and anti-gay drums, I love to watch the the election results.
    As for Bush and his decimation of the constitution, how about the suspension of Habeus Corpus, and warrantless wiretaps for starters.

  29. Ashevegasjoe

    Good god, I watched the Palin in Asheville video. There’s ten minutes of my life I’ll never get back. Thanks Chad, but I was actually at the rally, and I saw first hand the sad, angry base. I also saw a jubilant, young crowd of Obama supporters who seemed much more energetic. “Thousands” of youths is true hyperbole. And, you never answered my question: If Ayers is such a terrorist, why are the FBI and CIA not questioning him? Why is he still allowed to work at a university? Could it be that it was all a last, sad attempt to scare people away from voting for the guy with the funny name? You guys are pathetic– yet strangely entertaining.

  30. Chad Nesbitt

    Ashevegasjoe said,

    <>I also saw a jubilant, young crowd of Obama supporters who seemed much more energetic.<>

    Would that be the zombies standing outside or the 1 person that had to be taken out from the floor of the civic center?

    I answered your Ayers question with a link in a post above. They did question him. I would hope they still are keeping an eye on him since he said he did not bomb enough.

    Thank God for George Bush and your so called warrantless wiretaps. There has not been another terrorist bombing on US soil since we invaded the middle east and the Patriot Act. Have you even read the Patriot Act?

    <>Your base is old and white, and thankfully, dying off. <>

    Is that a hint of racism I hear in your words there Ashe? Hmmm….

    Now, glad you brought up the name calling.
    In my opinion, this is how you guys win your wars.
    You intimidate people by screaming as loud as you can at your opposition all a while hiding behind a bogus name like Ashevegasjoe or a protest sign.
    (At least Gordon Smith puts his name on the line). Liberals literally push people around that disagree with them. It scares most people because they do not want confrontation.
    They are afraid the confrontation might ruin their job. Liberals go as far as to suppress freedom of speech of the opposition.

    So yes, I may be a little arrogant in my words. Why?
    Because no matter what I say you are going to disagree with it.

    I would love to sit down and have a conversation and work something out for both parties. But you guys suck at that. It’s your way or the highway.

    Well, I’m here to tell you pal. It don’t work like that. We are watching you libs like a hawk.
    We have to because you are screwing up the future of America. And that future is our children.

    Believe me, we conservatives will be back in 2010 and take over in 2012.

  31. Ashevegasjoe

    Old people are not a race, and if liberals intimidate you I don’t know how you ever leave your house. I mention that they are white because your party is overwhelmingly white, as am I. I only hope you guys come back with Palin in 2012. Lastly, I’m not “hiding” behind a name, I am a local small business owner and would be glad to meet face-to-face, on the phone, or on the T.V. anytime, anywhere. Bring it. The truth will set you free.

    Obama is going to include members of the GOP in his cabinet, so I don’t think the country needs your olive branch–thanks.

  32. Ashevegasjoe

    Also, I know of no liberals who want to “supress freedom of speech”. Personally, I want you guys to talk as often as possible. When you speak, your lunacy is all the more apparent.

  33. dave

    Chad,

    If you dont think the Patriot Act, Illegal Wire Taps, PD-51, and calling the Constitution “just a G#dd##n piece of paper”, just to name a few things, is troubling, then I seriously question your political knowledge, as well as media literacy.
    I strongly suggest you sit down and watch some Dough Stanhope videos.

    Ashevegas Joe-
    Please don’t insult the moon by comparing Nesbitt to her. Thanks.

  34. dave

    “Well, I’m here to tell you pal. It don’t work like that. We are watching you libs like a hawk.
    We have to because you are screwing up the future of America. And that future is our children.”

    You dont even have children.

  35. Ashevegasjoe

    my apologies for what I’m guessing is the use of the word “lunacy”?? In the future I will refer to him as “bat f-cking crazy”

  36. Reality Check

    Ashevegasjoe – you don’t know of any liberals who want to suppress free speech? Incredible! The entire movement of speaking and thinking in a ‘politically correct’ manner comes from the liberals. “You can’t say that .. even if its true!” That is a complete speech and thought (hate crimes) regulatory effort. In the 60’s the left screamed all should have free speech. Apparently just to get THEIR point out. Now, they want to do the same to those who they felt were imposing restrictions on them. Is that free speech or just wanting your beliefs to take priority?

  37. Ken Hanke

    That is a complete speech and thought (hate crimes) regulatory effort.

    So are you saying that hate crimes are okay? The problem with this line of thought — and I’m not a huge advocate of political correctness in all cases — is that it’s too broad. The basic concept of political correctness really comes down to not insulting someone. It’s largely a matter of good manners and thoughtfulness, though I’d willingly concede that I’ve seen it taken way too far.

    Personally, I’m all for allowing the militant right to say anything they choose. It’s the greatest gift they ever handed to liberals.

  38. Reality Check

    Ken .. of course I don’t support someone beating/robbing/murdering someone else. Regardless of the reason. Does it really matter? The crime was wrong whether it was based on money or cultural hatred.

    The problem with labeling a crime as a ‘hate crime’ is two fold. One is that those crimes were already illegal with hefty penalties. Second and more significant, in order to convict, you have to determine the ‘thoughts’ of the perp. A very gray area subject to the mood of the enforcement body over that crime.

    PC has been taken way too far as you admit. Any regulation based on the courts interpretation of a person’s thoughts could too. Do you really want the ‘thought police’? Let society sort out good manners and thoughtfulness, not the legislature, police and the courts.

  39. Reality Check

    Ken .. what do you think of this scenario?

    Street thug is waiting for someone to mug. He’s picked his spot and lays in waiting. Some poor person walks by, the thug commences the beat down and burglary. While he’s beating the victim and taking his money, the perp’s adrenaline is pumping and he sees the victim is ‘not like him culturally or racially’ and he spews some insults to finish the job.

    Is that a hate crime or a mugging or both? It sure could be either or both and would boil down to the mood of the judge or jury. The wide range of interpretations here is scary.

  40. Ashevegasjoe

    The only people talking about political correctness and silencing the right, are THE RIGHT. R.C., you obviously listen to Rush and Hannity a lot. I do too, but if you listen to the other side, you will see that they (Ed Schultz, Bill Press, Miller, Olberman, Maddow, and The Daily Show), spend a huge portion of their shows simply playing direct quotes from conservatives. NOBODY on the left wants anyone silenced. And if you listen to Stephanie Miller you will see that being PC is not liberal. I hear you and Chad, and Rush continually talking about intimidation and how people want to silence you. It is a total fabrication. All we want is an equal share of the available media outlets. The things you guys say are way more insane than anything we could imagine. So, No, I don’t know of any liberals who want to suppress free speech– if you do, please give an example. Personally, I want the whole world to hear everything you guys say. In the words of Chad, “I’m watchin’ you guys like a hawk” grrrr

  41. Reality Check

    Trying to claim that PC is the product of a ‘vast right wing conspiracy’ is not going to fly. Good effort. It comes from a large faction of the Democratic Party. They’ve got the whole country afraid of their own shadows for fear of being called something discriminatory. Look how modern Human Resources Depts have had to learn to tap dance around everyone’s ‘feelings’. You personally may not agree with them, but they vote Democrat.

    I listen to Stephanie Miller. She’s wrong on this too.

    “All we want is an equal share of the available media outlets.” Does this mean you approve of the Fairness Doctrine?

    Don’t lump me with Chad. I’m a Libertarian. A half breed.

  42. Ken Hanke

    Is that a hate crime or a mugging or both? It sure could be either or both and would boil down to the mood of the judge or jury. The wide range of interpretations here is scary.

    Perhaps, but your scenario is such a stacked deck. There clearly have been incidents where people were brutalized and even killed for no other reason than that they were black or gay or what have you.

  43. Reality Check

    Ken, how about this:

    When a gangbanger of one culture/race hunts and kills another gangbanger of a different culture/race, is that a hate crime?

  44. Ken Hanke

    When a gangbanger of one culture/race hunts and kills another gangbanger of a different culture/race, is that a hate crime?

    It certainly has all the earmarks of it to me. I’m personally just amazed that you can equate hate crime legislation with political correctness.

  45. Reality Check

    Ken, I feel that all crimes are hate crimes whether the perp is after your money or is a racial bully. I have real concerns about rulings on such a subjective event.

    I’ll put it like this. PC is the ‘talk police’ and hate crimes are ‘thought police’. That is how they are similar. I prefer the ‘dirty deed police’.

  46. Ashevegasjoe

    Yes, the public should have ownership of the air waves, not corporations. I think presenting all the sides of a controversial issue is important in a democracy. The farirness doctrine was in place for decades, and there were no problems for talk shows. It was only when trial lawyers for Reagan outlawed it that we saw the rights to frequencies bought up, and the monopoly of the media by the right. I only want there to be an equal share of the media, it influences the voting public, and in Ohio and other swing states, liberal stations have been intentionally shut down during election years. I don’t want anyone silenced, but it would be nice if both sides to an issue were heard (or all three or four etc.)
    My point was that Miller is clearly not PC, and she is a very popular liberal talk show host. How can she be wrong on this issue?? You are really confused. Also, it is “vote Democratically”, as A “democrat” is a noun, you need an adverb to describe how you vote, hence “democratically”. Why must you guys wage you war on grammar, just because you hate Dems?

  47. Reality Check

    AVJ – more conspiracies holding down the left. If there was a real audience for liberal radio in the same scale as the right, Air American wouldn’t be almost bankrupt. The audience just isn’t there. Its that simple. Go find some advertisers and you can have your own radio show. No advertisers, no radio show.

    If the Fairness Doctrine is reinstated, it will be applied to TV and Radio and will crunch political speech with cumbersome gov’t regulation. You won’t like it then. Be careful what you ask for.

    I’m not going argue semantics. They vote for Democrats. How about that?

  48. Ken Hanke

    I’ll put it like this. PC is the ‘talk police’ and hate crimes are ‘thought police’. That is how they are similar.

    Then we will continue to disagree, which is probably not in the least surprising to anyone, including ourselves.

    If there was a real audience for liberal radio in the same scale as the right, Air American wouldn’t be almost bankrupt. The audience just isn’t there.

    Ever ask yourself why? I mean, you can’t make the claim that conservative talk radio speaks to more people, because that won’t really wash with the election results, will it? So what is it? Do liberals just have a lesser need to find their views validated via some pseudo-legitimate voice? Do conservatives need some Limbaugh or Savage to tell them what to think — or alternatively, to tell them what’s “really going on?” Do you — as your screen name rather suggests — find these shows to be a “reality check?”

    If the Fairness Doctrine is reinstated, it will be applied to TV and Radio and will crunch political speech with cumbersome gov’t regulation. You won’t like it then.

    Why? Didn’t inconvenience me when it was around before — apart from pre-empting a broadcast of Dark Victory, because Reagan had a small part in it, which wasn’t much of a loss in the grand scheme.

  49. Reality Check

    Ken – I’ll agree to disagree on PC

    Regarding the radio markets … I’m no radio marketing guru, but I do understand economics and political science. It isn’t that your automaton fantasy is true, its because its easier for the conservatives to condense their message to a large audience than it is for liberals. The liberal platform is 10x the size of the conservative’s. That makes it harder for the liberals to grab the big audience. Why its so hard for the conservative talk radio haters to let free speech and the free market work is a psychology experiment in iteslt.

  50. Reality Check

    Ken – Fairness Doctrine – I have to say that back then it was pretty fairly administered over TV and Radio. To me, this time is different as it appears to be a power grap by the party in power to squelch the voice of opposition. Congress has no intention of making this apply to TV. Lawsuits will have to do that.

  51. Ken Hanke

    It isn’t that your automaton fantasy is true, its because its easier for the conservatives to condense their message to a large audience than it is for liberals.

    Yes, perhaps so, since it’s a much simpler message. It’s interesting that mine is an “automaton fantasy,” and you claim to be the voice of reality. You don’t honestly think I’m buying either claim, I hope. Your vision of reality is clearly not the same as mine.

    Why its so hard for the conservative talk radio haters to let free speech and the free market work is a psychology experiment in iteslt.

    Is it indeed? Funny thing is, I know a lot of people who are disgusted by conservative talk radio — and Fox News and Newsmax — but I don’t actually know anyone who hates it. I realize “haters” has become a catch-all for anyone who disagrees with you (I use the universal you, not you in particular). Its intent is to discredit the person disagreeing, but more and more, for me at least, it discredits the person using it — much in the same way that the appearance of LOL or OMG makes me look askance at any post containing them. Because I find Savage, Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Coulter, et al morally repugnant does not mean I hate them.

    it appears to be a power grap by the party in power to squelch the voice of opposition

    Appears to be? Or is this a demonstrable fact?

  52. Reality Check

    Ken. You threw out the barb: “Do conservatives need some Limbaugh or Savage to tell them what to think—or alternatively, to tell them what’s “really going on?” That is where my automaton comment came from. You are twisting my words as to why there are differing audiences in radio. What is your explanation?

    As far as the ‘hater’ comment came from … it developed from a comments I was making to AVJ. He is a ‘hater’ of conservative radio enough to want to squelch it. You dove in front of that bullet. Watch where you jump.

    When the only medium being threatened with content regulation is most used by one party and the other party wants it and it only regulated .. I’ll stretch my neck out and say it IS a power grab. Are you in favor of applying the fairness doctrine to radio only?

  53. Ken Hanke

    That is where my automaton comment came from. You are twisting my words as to why there are differing audiences in radio. What is your explanation?

    I actually didn’t offer an explanation. I posed questions. I have no actual explanation — merely possible suppositions. You say that it’s because the liberal viewpoint is too diverse. That, to me, does say that the conservative is pretty narrow and even rather simplistic.

    As far as the ‘hater’ comment came from … it developed from a comments I was making to AVJ. He is a ‘hater’ of conservative radio enough to want to squelch it. You dove in front of that bullet. Watch where you jump.

    Fair enough, but you used hater in response to me. Also, I missed where AVJ said he hated conservative radio and wanted it squelched. All I see is him wanting to see a balance. That balance may be impossible — assuming you’re correct that liberal radio won’t sell — but that’s a separate issue.

    When the only medium being threatened with content regulation is most used by one party and the other party wants it and it only regulated .. I’ll stretch my neck out and say it IS a power grab. Are you in favor of applying the fairness doctrine to radio only?

    When I hear the amazing amalgamation of nonsense and bigotry espoused as fact by the likes of some of these people, I’m hard-pressed to get worked up over the idea that they might be regulated. But I certainly have no problem with it being applied more broadly to include TV, which I believe it actually should.

  54. Reality Check

    Ken – The differences between the rep and dem parties is not a secret. Its basic political science. Did you take any? I’m doubting it. Also, nice job of dumping on the right’s platform with empty rhetoric. Remember, I’m a Libertarian, I can see the reality of both parties and am not blinded by partisanship. Both are sucking pretty big right now.

    This is a small community of posters. AVJ and I have retorted before in diff forums on this topic. You interrupted. BTW – liberal radio does not sell. Ask Air America advertisers. That’s no secret either.

    Balance would be nice, but I fear it is impossible. We are already sliding down the opinion slope. All the Fairness(censorship) doctrine will do is ensure the party in power has the most free speech rights.

  55. Ashevegasjoe

    RC– I regularly listen to conservative radio, the last thing I want is to “quelch” it. I want more people to hear it, it’s wildly entertaining, if not a little bit scary. I plainly said that I, and no Liberal, want anyone silenced. You make these claims, and when asked for an example, you give none. Like Ken wrote, I only want equal access to frequencies (supposedly) owned by the public.
    The idea that liberals can’t have an economically succesful show, is one of the biggest lies perpetuated by Rush and Hannity. In truth, Ed Schultz and Stephanie Miller are nationally broadcast, and overwhelmed by advertizers. Also, I’m sure you’re aware that Olbermann is now recieving more ratings than Papa Bear. My favorite story is Rachel Maddow. She rose to fame with an early morning show on Air America, and now hosts both a radio and an extremely popular T.V. show. The lesson is painfully obvious: if you give liberals shows, they will get a large portion of the audience, and advertizers will get exposure. I can’t believe with all of the recent economic successes of liberals in the media, in spite of corporate ownership, you would even try that b.s. Limbaugh talking point. Conservatives fear the fairness doctrine, because in a true marketplace of ideas, they would be bankrupt. The only thing that will silence conservatives is their plummeting ratings, and lack of new ideas (but I guess if it was a “new” idea that would inherently be progressive right?)

  56. Reality Check

    AVJ – what then is this ‘equal access’ business? Is the left being denied something? How do you explain the failure of Air America?

  57. Ken Hanke

    The differences between the rep and dem parties is not a secret. Its basic political science. Did you take any? I’m doubting it.

    Yes, but it’s hardly a relavent point, unless you’re planning on putting your real name and your qualifications out here.

    Remember, I’m a Libertarian, I can see the reality of both parties and am not blinded by partisanship.

    Yes, I guessed by your name that you fully believe that. Don’t be surprised that I don’t accept you as the last word on such matters.

    This is a small community of posters. AVJ and I have retorted before in diff forums on this topic. You interrupted.

    Sorry. I didn’t realize I was intruding on a private conversation.

  58. dave

    RC-If you really think “Air America” is the antidote to Limbaugh, then you are really behind the times in American Politics. I dont know ANYBODY who listens to “Air America”, but I know a lot of folks who listen to Democracy Now! and the Global Report online and on the radio. In fact, most weeks I listen to a few Limbaugh shows, a few DN! shows, and maybe even a Matt Mittan show. But never Air America. ewww!

    Out of curiosity, RC, what decade where you born in? I was born in the mid 70’s.

  59. Ashevegasjoe

    RC– How do you explain the success of Ed Schultz, or Keith Olberman??

  60. Reality Check

    AVJ – What is your point? Is there a lot of Liberal radio – radio is all I’m talking about here – or not? Is there fair access or not? On one hand, you say there isn’t equal access, then you say there is tons of content. What is it? Shultz has some success. Small success, but success. Olbermann is on TV. You subject changing technique is back in form. I kind of missed it.

    Dave – I never said that. I was only talking about TALK RADIO. Your subject changing skills are shaping up too.

    Ken – its easy to submit condescending posts that only disagree with other posters. How about some content? Do you have any or are you here just to complain? You say I’m wrong about the Dem and Rep platforms … prove it.

  61. Ken Hanke

    Ken – its easy to submit condescending posts that only disagree with other posters. How about some content? Do you have any or are you here just to complain? You say I’m wrong about the Dem and Rep platforms … prove it.

    Prove what? That I don’t buy your stance as the clear-headed voice giving us all a “reality check?” (How condescending is that?) That’s pretty obvious. I posed a variety of possible scenarios as alternatives to your assertion as to why liberal talk radio “doesn’t work” in the marketplace. I don’t recall ever saying you’re wrong about the two platforms, which has nothing to do with my personal inability to find much appealing about the Republican one.

  62. dave

    RC Cola-Oh, so talk internet isnt relevant i suppose.

    Do you like chocolate? I do.

  63. Ashevegasjoe

    RC– wow, this is almost tiremsome. My point is that the liberal format on the radio works, when you give them a chance. The liberal format on TV works, when you give them a chance. There are 4000 talk shows on the radio across the country less than ten are liberal. Obviously not all of the conservative talkers are succesful, yet they continue to get the time and opportunity to spread their message. If that same opportunity were given to liberals, that would be fair. There is a ton of liberal content, there are not a lot of available frequencies to put them on. Because the frequencies are owned by companies with conservative interests. These companies put on conservative talkers in swing state areas, even when they are losing money, to influence voters (see Madison, Wisconsin).
    My point, which has not varied or changed, is that liberals are succesful when given the chance to have their own shows. The fairness doctrine would apply to TV, as well as radio. Bill Press, Stephanie Miller, Tom Hartman, all have succesful nationally broadcast radio shows. The only reason I threw in Olberman, is because he has regularly been beating O’reilly in ratings. This indicates to me, that people on a national level are more than willing to watch/listen/advertize with liberals. Your assertion that “the audience just isn’t there”, is a load of crap. Just because Hannity tells you something, that doesn’t make it true. Look at the empirical evidence.

  64. Reality Check

    Ken – Your reality must be ‘closed’ if my brilliant insights don’t show you the light.

  65. dave

    RC-Why do you avoid my questions? do you or do you not like Chocolate?

  66. Reality Check

    Dave – talk internet was not relevant to the discussion I was having with AVJ. I’m confident that the web is plentiful with diverse opinions.

    I’ll play your game. I have no issues with chocolate.

  67. dave

    “I’ll play your game. I have no issues with chocolate. ”

    See! We can agree on that! What a beautiful, tolerant world in which we reside! Let’s hold hands! Change truly has come to the US of A!

  68. Reality Check

    In the words of Nathan Arizona, owner of Unpainted Arizona, ‘You’re just gonna make me bust out cryin!’

  69. Ashevegasjoe

    “and if a frog had wings, he wouldn’t bump his ass a-hoppin'”–Nathan Aarizona

    One of my favorite movies of all time. Your empirical evidence proves my point, thanks. In fact, we’ll check that website in a year, after Obama opens up the airwaves, and I’m sure it will continue to support my thesis.

  70. dave

    “That’s your forte, ain’t it? Chasing down crooks and Commies and sh#$. That’s your whole G*&-da@% raison d’etre, ain’t it? ”
    -Nathan Arizona Sr

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