Nurse-in ends in standoff

Nurse-in ends in standoff-attachment0

A group of about 25 protesters, including several breastfeeding mothers and chanting supporters, held a nurse-in outside the Denny’s restaurant off Patton Avenue in West Asheville on Sunday afternoon.

Outside the restaurant, a Denny’s official apologized to organizer Crystal Everitt regarding an incident two weeks ago that sparked the protest, but Everitt said his statement wasn’t enough.

Everitt says she was in the restaurant two weeks ago breast-feeding her 1-year-old son when she was asked by the restaurant’s manager to cover herself or move to the bathroom. Everitt says she declined, citing state law, which protects the rights of mothers to breastfeed in any public or private location.

Rick Pate, regional director of operations for the Asheville Denny’s franchise, said Denny’s “responsibility as a family restaurant is to provide a nonoffensive environment for all of our valued guests. Obviously, if any behavior or any practice that happened two weeks ago while she was in the restaurant — specifically us asking her to cover up — offended her in any way, we’re sincerely sorry for that. We apologize for that,” Pate said.

“My goal today was today was to come out and speak to everyone that was here to protest, with a desire to have them come in my restaurant and have lunch with us today,” Pate said, adding that breast-feeding mothers are always welcome.

Everitt said Pate’s statement wasn’t good enough. She said that the statement, which matches a statement she received from Denny’s corporate office, leaves it up to the discretion of the restaurant to determine what is nonoffensive.

“They’re putting in a discretion clause, and they might as well not have a policy at all,” Everitt said, while standing outside the restaurant and nursing her child. “Who is it that determines if I’m being discreet or not? ‘Discreet’ should not even be in there.”

“Their policy is not in line with the law, so it’s absolutely not OK,” she said. “They need to guarantee that moms will not be harassed.”

Standing alongside Regent Drive off Patton Avenue in a bracing wind, the group of protesters held signs that read “Breast feeding is not shameful” and chanted, “Breastfeeding’s not a crime. Why won’t you let babies dine?”

Click here to see a photo gallery of the nurse-in. Click below to see video from the nurse-in.

— Jason Sandford, multimedia editor

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87 thoughts on “Nurse-in ends in standoff

  1. Local Mama

    25 people? And lasted an hour total? That is a “bust” LOL.

  2. travelah

    Ha! This is a real joke. Most people in Asheville have come to expect a small ragtag group of “protesters” to occasionally pop up somewhere in their drives. I think the offense here was having an activist target a location in Asheville to make a political stand using her baby as a prop and then turn around and snub a personal apology for any offense committed. I don’t patronize Denny’s but I might try to grab a quick breakfast there one time just to express my appreciation for the manager’s snubbed apology.

  3. mountainmama

    Im actually disgusted that any mom would force their baby or small children or any child for that matter to stand outside in the freezing cold and wind just to prove a political point. Seems a bit selfish to me. If you really care about the rights of babies and children period- why would you expose them to such harsh temperatures?
    I think nurse in’s are great and I am a breastfeeding mom myself, but since when is a breastfeeding matter more important than the comfort of possible health safety of my children by exposing them to the cold.
    I would have otherwise went, had it been more planned out. However I recognized it was unfair to my child.
    As far as the Denny’s matter, I personally would not have left to begin with. What would they do? Call the law? Hmm.. Wonder how that would have went? Or schedule a nurse in locally for warmer weather to allow the masses to really group up, for not just the Denny’s cause but also to spread awareness.

    Kudos to those who support breastfeeding. Lets just be a bit smarter and not do these things at our kids discomfort. Would that not be losing sight of the ultimate goal- to help our kids be comfortable (which includes comfortable in nursing publicly)

  4. True Mama

    You go Girl! Stand up to The Man!! Mothers have been oppressed from the beginning and it’s time for change! We have rights, there are laws and we are entitled to raising our babies however we choose. Crystal has alot of courage, there are few that would actually stand up and be heard, most people are content to sit quietly and turn a blind eye to discrimination. Sure, go on with your boring little lives, if your okay with losing to The Man. Not me!! Fight the Power!

  5. zen

    “Your apology doesn’t matter, we’ve already decided to protest and we have signs and [i]everything![/i]“

  6. Local Mama

    No, it wasn’t about her at all… right.

    I like how it looks like she was coached by the breastfeeding awareness group she go to go along with her. Now she claims it is about policy, not to mention this is the first time I have seen her in a shirt with a neck. They must have told her to be discreet.

    Notice, now she is back to saying Denny’s wanted her to go to the bathroom, and in other stories it was the private dining area. Her story flips flops more than a fish.

  7. Hank Chinaski

    I was kind of sympathetic to the lady at first, but now it’s just getting ridiculous. The guy apologized, get over it. Don’t eat there if you feel that the apology wasn’t enough.
    This is comical.

  8. Jenny

    Yeah, I was there. He DIDN’T actually apologize. He basically said that he was sorry if their policy, which is not in accordance with state law, offended Crystal. He indicated that Denny’s would continue to treat nursing mothers in precisely the same way. They are welcome to come in and breastfeed, but if anyone is offended, they still can be asked to leave and have the police called on them. How is that an apology?

  9. Rachel

    The manager’s “apology” was more of an “I’m sorry you feel that way.” He made it clear that breastfeeding in his restaurant is only acceptable if no one is offended by it.

    Any action made by any person at any time has the potential to offend SOMEONE. People do NOT have the right to not see or come in contact with things that offend them, but they do have the right to look away.

    The law clearly protects a woman’s right to breastfeed in public no matter how much she is exposed, and Denny’s policy needs to change to comply with this law. This regional manager was simply trying to “PR” his way out of this, without actually addressing the issue.

  10. Ashevegasjoe

    The law clearly states that you can reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, anytime as well. Parading children around in freezing temps, without so much as a hat, is more offensive than any tit.

  11. Chad Nesbitt

    This whole mess is Ashvegas’s fault. He was the one that advertised the free Grand Slam Breakfast.

    Ha, Ha! Just Kidding Ash!
    Great videos.

  12. Kriss

    Ashevegasjoe, this isn’t the first time I’ve heard this, where someone states unequivocally that “the law clearly states that…you can refuse service to anyone, anytime…” I’d just like to know what law that is that “clearly” states such. I am not a lawyer, and I doubt you are one either, but if you are so familiar with North Carolina or Federal law that you can so authoritatively make such a statement about a “clear” law, then you should be able to quote that law as well as provide the statute or code references.

    I have often heard brash statements about there being some law or regulation about this or that, or this or that is illegal or whatever, but sometimes some of these beliefs turn out to be just something someone has heard from someone else, which in turn gets spread around to others, with nobody really stopping to question its validity.

    I personally doubt very much that there is any law on the books that specifically gives restaurants or any other business the “right to refuse service to anyone.” The reason is that there are so many instances where businesses absolutely do not have such a right service to someone – it all depends on the facts and circumstances.

    In the present case, the restaurant obviously did in fact refuse service to the nursing mother, that is, after she refused to “cover up,” something she was not required to do under a law that indeed exists giving her breastfeeding rights. What I don’t understand is how some nebulous “right” the restaurant might have had to “refuse service” could take precedence over a clearly stated breastfeeding rights law.

  13. entopticon

    mountainmama asked: “If you really care about the rights of babies and children period- why would you expose them to such harsh temperatures?”

    The kid was bundled up in a thick down coat! Where on Earth do you think the Denny’s is, Siberia? Freezing temperatures? Everitt herself was wearing nothing but a sweater.

    mountainmama also asked: “What would they do? Call the law? Hmm.. Wonder how that would have went?”

    Apparently you didn’t actually read the story. That is exactly what they did. When Everitt cited that she was in her legal rights after the manager complained, the manager returned with a police officer who forced her to leave.

  14. entopticon

    As the Denny’s chain discovered the hard way, they most certainly do not have the right to refuse service to anyone that they want to, as evidenced in the highly publicized cases where they refused service to people based on the color of their skin.

    There are laws to prevent them from refusing to serve people based on the color of their skin. It certainly seems that the spirit of the law in North Carolina protecting mothers’ right to breast feed wherever they see fit prevents Denny’s from refusing service to those women. I hope the ACLU takes on this cause and makes Denny’s pay for their shameful intolerance.

  15. Hank Chinaski

    I had a feeling it was only a matter of time until this was compared to refusing service based on skin color. Do you guys really think that this compares with that? Not even close. This lady is turning this into her own personal crusade. If she was a halfway decent person, she would breast feed with a towel or blanket or something when she’s around other people. Especially around families, because we know there are some very protective parents out there who think seeing a woman’s breast is a sin. Does she legally have to? No. But what kind of person would want to draw this much attention to themselves? An attention whore, that’s who.

  16. Piffy!

    The headline is mis-leading. I was picturing an armed standoff between bare-breasted mothers and the 17 different names “John” has given.

  17. entopticon

    Didn’t take long for some right wing extremist to call that poor woman a “whore.”

    Hank Chinaski asked: “Do you guys really think that this compares with that?”

    As a matter of fact I do. Bigotry against people of color has been a very real struggle. So has bigotry against women.

    From what I’ve seen of her, she isn’t a halfway decent person; she is an all the way decent person. The fact that you called her a whore and indecent just because you have some kind of deranged mental issue with women’s breasts makes you less than halfway decent. Quite a bit less.

    I could care less if some right wing extremist lunatic thinks seeing a woman’s breast is a sin. The Taliban thinks seeing a woman’s knee is a sin and they are no better.

    Personally, I think the hundreds of thousands of women, children, and infants that died needlessly because of our illegal war in Iraq is a sin, but ironically, most of those people with the mental disorder that makes them freak out when they see a breast are just fine with that.

  18. Vrede

    Hank Chinaski,

    I find your face offensive. If you were a “halfway decent person,” you would cover your head “with a towel or blanket or something” when dining around other people. Perhaps all women in public should cover their heads, too, because we know there are some very protective Muslim parents out there who think seeing a woman’s face is a “sin”.

    BTW, to the extent that the law bans both discrimination against breastfeeders and discrimination based on race, of course they compare – whatever moral value you may place on each. You’re right about them not being close, they’re exactly the same as far as the law is concerned.

    Then again, maybe you’re just an “attention whore” writing such silliness in this forum.

  19. Think of Others

    Yet another example of our ‘me me me me me’ society. I refuse to choose sides because I’m completely neutral on the issue. BUT…. and this one is for you breast baring, indiscreet women out there… What if… JUST WHAT IF SOMEONE ELSE (remember them?) IS offended by your act. Don’t they have the same right as you to enjoy their life in peace? The obvious compromise here is to not be proudly flashing boob as though it were nothing. TO the majority- it IS something, so why not consider their sentiments as well as your own and just be a bit more sensitive to their comfort, just as you’re asking them to be to your convenience? Can we all just start thinking about other people a little bit more? Me me me me me has run its course and darn near ruined our culture.

  20. entopticon

    Yes Hank Chinaski, I do think prejudice against women is just as legitimate as prejudice against people of color. Ironically, it was all too common for people to say exactly what you have been saying about this woman, that black people were just grandstanding on their own personal crusade and seeking attention when they were fighting for their civil liberties during the civil rights era.

    I think your claim about her not being a decent person speaks to your lack of decency, not hers. Your claim that she is an “attention whore” is just plain disgraceful. Frankly I am a little surprised that the moderator even allowed such a disgracefully offensive comment.

    She has nothing to be ashamed of, but you most certainly do.

  21. khyber Pass

    I’m not crazy about seeing women breast feed in a restaurant, or anywhere else, for that matter. Nor am I really happy seeing grossly obese people belly up to the buffet and then sitting in my line of vision in a restaurant. Men with dyed hair sorta freak me out and I wonder why I have to see their vanity displayed in public. Then there are young women with their navels showing, people with rings and studs in various parts of their faces, and young men with their drawers showing under their trousers that sit down around their knees…..All are sights i prefer not to see.
    H-m-m….maybe time to picket every restaurant without a dress code?
    Gee, I’m confused as to which side to be on in this one…..but I sure hate it that the Denny’s guy seems to have made the sort of “apology” that is not really an apology. PR flack, not standup guy….oh, Lord, I didn’t realize I was all this picky about modern society and its gross lack of taste in dress and behaviour. Time to turn recluse I guess……
    I think I voter for a mom’s right to do the “natural” thing since people who do the unnatural and unhealthy are allowed in without any fuss I’ve ever heard of.

  22. entopticon

    Think of Others, you need to take your own advice. The sight of a woman’s breast hurts absolutely no one. To cater to the warped individuals who have an issue with it would be no better than to hide a star of David from an anti-Semite who is uncomfortable with Jews. Thinking of others means to live and let live, not to cater to warped people who are offended at the sight of a breast.

    If you don’t like it, don’t watch. Think of others’ right to live their own life in peace, and you do the same.

  23. Hank Chinaski

    “Think of others”, those are my feelings exactly. I don’t have a problem with breast feeding at all. Every one in my family that has babies did it, and they did it in public….discreetly. My point is why cause a confrontation? Why make a scene? Is it really that big of a deal? To compare the plight of a breast feeding mother to the civil rights struggle is not only insane, it’s downright degrading to black people. She has a choice where to breast feed, people of color never had a choice to make, they were born that way.

    “I could care less…”
    I hate to nit-pick entopticon, but I think you mean you COULDN’T care less. Sorry to point that out, it’s just a pet peeve of mine.

  24. Hank Chinaski

    Also, I guess I just assumed that you guys knew that when I called her an attention whore, I didn’t mean a prostitute that wants attention. I meant that she is using this to gain notoriety, or be seen. I just can’t understand why someone would want to carry this on for this long.
    I’m apologize to Mrs. Everitt if she thought I was calling her a prostitute. That was never my intention.

  25. I appreciate the spirited debate here, and yet, while Everitt has put herself out as a spokesperson for this issue, I don’t see how calling her or anyone else names (such as attention whore) adds to the debate.

    I follow the comment threads at Mountain Xpress because they tend to attract commenters who truly want to add to or analyze the issue at hand, as opposed to devolving into the illogical anger and name calling I see on other comment boards (such as Topix).

  26. Hank Chinaski

    I used bad judgment using that term. Using the word “whore” when a woman was the center of the discussion was far from tactful on my part. I apologize to her, and any woman who was offended by my remark.
    I still believe in the spirit of the message I was trying to convey. I should have said attention seeker though. I typed without thinking things through….again!

  27. Kriss

    timpeck wrote: “Charlotte News picks up story…”

    This story is all over the Internet. If you go to Google and put in “Denny’s breastfeeding,” you’ll get well over 200 hits – maybe more, but that’s as far as I cared to go. I see that as a very good thing. This situation has definitely raised awareness of the intolerance and discrimination faced by breastfeeding mothers not only here but other parts of the U.S.

    Btw, I might be wrong, but I doubt very much that such attitudes and such discrimination against breastfeeding mothers exist nearly as much in other countries in other parts of the world, excluding of course some strict Muslim societies where women are required to cover up head to toe.

  28. entopticon

    Hank Chinaski, Polish people were the source of much derision in the last century. They weren’t welcome in many establishments. They were considered to be mentally inferior and dirty. People were certainly offended by their presence, so many Polish people pretended not to be Polish, while others did not. Many even went so far that they anglicized their surnames.

    By your twisted logic, it was their moral responsibility to pretend not to be Polish.

    Only a diseased mind has a problem with a woman breast feeding in public. Your notion that a woman who breast feeds without shame must be an “attention whore” is beyond offensive, it is outright disgraceful.

    The oppression of women is every bit as real as the oppression of people of color. They are both very serious.

  29. entopticon

    Oh, and I suppose I actually could care less, but not much.

  30. Kriss

    Hank Chinaski wrote: “…I don’t have a problem with breast feeding at all. Every one in my family that has babies did it, and they did it in public….discreetly. My point is why cause a confrontation? Why make a scene? Is it really that big of a deal?”

    You make some very good points with your questions, Hank. The woman’s breastfeeding really should not have been a big deal. The confrontation was started by a bunch of busybodies making a big issue out of something that was none of their concern. And then Denny’s personnel further escalated the problem by their inappropriate actions, culminating in calling the police, something totally unnecessary. Denny’s SHOULD HAVE KNOWN what the law was, and acted accordingly. If Denny’s had acted properly, they would have explained to the complainers that the mother was doing nothing wrong or illegal, and then if they chose to leave the restaurant anyway, it was their choice to do so.

    As far as losing paying customers on that day is concerned, the breastfeeding mother and her family had just as much value as customers as any others who may have walked out or threatened to do so. Sometimes doing the right thing is well worth any small temporary loss of revenue. Most well-run businesses know that, because in the long run, treating customers fairly and with respect will ultimately result in greater profits.

  31. Hank Chinaski

    I agree that the mom did nothing wrong. It wouldn’t have offended me at all. There are however people out there that get worked up over it, and my point is why offend people just because you legally can? Whether we agree with each other or not, why don’t we all try to treat each other decently? I know, I know….she legally has the right to do it. It just seems like extending the courtesy of using a blanket or towel wouldn’t inconvenience the mom that much. I’ve never breast fed though, so I’m not sure how much trouble that would be.

  32. September Girl

    Hank, the argument has been made over and over again that someone else’s reaction to you or your behavior does not define your rights, your morality or your character. Most therapists teach their clients to take responsibility for their own emotions and reactions to others, simply because that is the only thing you can ultimately control. Being irrationally offended by something as natural and lovely as breastfeeding is a sign of some other issue in the offended person’s psyche, along the lines of body image, sexual repression, fear of abandonment, the usual stuff. Whew, thank god for psychology 101!

  33. Think of Others

    Well entopticon, I can only assume that you are the same person blasting the bass on your car stereo, wearing clothing with biased, potentially insulting jargon printed on it and taking a cell phone call in the middle of a conversation with me… again… ALL attributes of a me me me me me culture. As is your opening argument; “The sight of a woman’s breast hurts absolutely no one.” So we should assume that you speak for EVERYONE!?!?!?!? Who do you think you are to judge what should and shouldn’t offend ANYONE? We were raised with a phrase passed down through the generations that you (and those of your mindset) should closely analyze: “Your right to punch me in the nose ENDS at the very tip of my nose.” Translation – indeed – “live and let live” BUT (and this is a HUGE BUT!) But – the second your ‘living and let living’ afects another human being, you need to be mature enough to analyze the potential effects of your actions. Join society as a empathetic citizen – “Think of Others.”

  34. September Girl

    Just for the record, I am absolutely 100% against punching a stranger in the nose with your boob(s). I may even record a PSA.

  35. entopticon

    Well Think of Others (sic)…. That is because you are clearly not a particularly perceptive person if your comments are any indication. It is you that is wrapped up in the culture of “me, me, me.” No I do not blast my car stereo or use my clothing to insult you, and I doubt I have ever met you.

    You asked: “So we should assume that you speak for EVERYONE!?!?!?!?”

    That’s right. My claim that the sight of a woman’s breast hurts no one is a fact, not an opinion, so it does indeed apply to everyone.

    You asked: “Who do you think you are to judge what should and shouldn’t offend ANYONE?”

    In my opinion, someone who is offended by black people, or Jewish people, or breast feeding women has serious psychological issues. As I already stated, it harms no one, and that is why it is protected by law. Who are you to tell me what opinions I can or cannot have?

    It really is absolutely hilarious that you are apparently unable to understand the meaning of the very adage that you yourself cited! It means the exact opposite of what you stated. That’s not just my opinion, it is a plain and simple fact. The whole point of the adage is that you may be offended by what someone else does, but unless they cause you harm it is your problem, not theirs. If you still don’t get that you seriously need to take your mind out for a bit more exercise.

    Not only do you need to take your own advice and think of others for a change, you should try just thinking at all for a change.

  36. Think of Others

    entopticon… so typical in our new society. God help us all.

  37. entopticon

    Think of Others (sic), it is always funny when you right wing extremists talk about the moral decay of our “new society.” 50 years ago it was perfectly fine to punch your wife in the mouth. 50 years ago black people weren’t allowed to eat in the same restaurants. You can keep your good old days.

    Not only are your psychologically disturbed ideas about breast feeding immoral, they put women in danger. Your twisted stigmatization of a legal and perfectly natural act fuels the psychopathy that endangers all women.

    Women who breast feed are not the ones that we need to protect our society from. You are.

  38. Kriss

    Think or Others, maybe you would be a good one to ask this question. Because I’d really like to hear someone’s answer on this. Since you seem to go on and on about the sight of a female human breast as something that *does* hurt other people, how does that happen? How does seeing some part of, or even all of, a female breast actually hurt anybody?

    And please don’t give me the old trite answer that, “People just don’t want to see that,” because that tells us nothing, it’s not necessarily true anyway, and does not explain how seeing a woman’s breast, whether breastfeeding or not, can possibly do anyone any harm.

  39. Think of Others

    50 years ago, I was 1.

    You took my initial statement, and I quote “Yet another example of our ‘me me me me me’ society. I refuse to choose sides because I’m completely neutral on the issue. BUT…. and this one is for you breast baring, indiscreet women out there… What if… JUST WHAT IF SOMEONE ELSE (remember them?) IS offended by your act. Don’t they have the same right as you to enjoy their life in peace? The obvious compromise here is to not be proudly flashing boob as though it were nothing. TO the majority- it IS something, so why not consider their sentiments as well as your own and just be a bit more sensitive to their comfort, just as you’re asking them to be to your convenience? Can we all just start thinking about other people a little bit more? Me me me me me has run its course and darn near ruined our culture.” …and brought it all the way to – and I quote, “Think of Others (sic), it is always funny when you right wing extremists talk about the moral decay of our “new society.” 50 years ago it was perfectly fine to punch your wife in the mouth. 50 years ago black people weren’t allowed to eat in the same restaurants. You can keep your good old days.

    Not only are your psychologically disturbed ideas about breast feeding immoral, they put women in danger. Your twisted stigmatization of a legal and perfectly natural act fuels the psychopathy that endangers all women.

    Women who breast feed are not the ones that we need to protect our society from. You are.”

    Not sure when I said all the crap you’re ranting about, (I didn’t!) but clearly your reduction of this issue to name calling and your defensive posture make it obvious that you’re either a) in the psychological professions, and/or b) are one of their patients. Whoa! Done with this topic! I’m sure your intentions are all good, as are mine… ya just need to lighten up a bit and Think of others… “I refuse to choose sides because I’m completely neutral on the issue.” The less ‘me vs. you’ we can do in this country the better off we’re all going to be in teh long run. Hope you’re there for it!

  40. Think of Others

    Hi Kriss: “Since you seem to go on and on about the sight of a female human breast as something that *does* hurt other people” Uhhh… please stop putting words in my post! If you read back…. I’m ‘Switzerland’ on this issue – if I see a woman breasfeeding, I’m completely indifferent. MY ISSUE IS COMFORT. I NEVER suggested that “seeing a woman’s breast, whether breastfeeding or not, can possibly do anyone any harm”. What I AM saying, indisputably (yet twisted by some radicals on the topic!)IF the sight of a woman breastfeeding makes someone uncomfortable, is it asking too much to ask the woman to be a little more discreet? Not in a considerate society that ‘thinks of others’ it’s not.

  41. Kriss

    OK, Think of Others, if you really don’t think the sight of a human breast does anyone any harm, then how could it make anyone uncomfortable? People generally get uncomfortable when there’s some kind of actual physical contact that doesn’t feel good – such as sitting on a hard bottom chair for a long time – or if there’s some kind of potential threat to their well being – such as someone pointing a gun at them. A human female breast is about the least threatening thing I can think of. Why would that make someone uncomfortable?

    And even so, for whatever illogical reason someone might be “uncomfortable,” your reasoning is that better the nursing mother be made uncomfortable than someone staring at her. Why should she be the one that must change what she’s doing? A nursing mother is minding her own business, which has nothing to do with what other people are doing. People who may be watching her and getting “uncomfortable,” are NOT minding their own business, and that has EVERYTHING to do with what SOMEONE ELSE is doing. Why should their feelings – whether justified or not – take priority over the feelings of the nursing mother?

    That’s what I cannot understand, which seems to be what you keep saying. She is hurting no one. It’s not her fault in any way whatsoever if the people watching have some kind of personal hang-up about the sight of a mother nursing and a little bit of breast showing, which therefore makes them “uncomfortable.” She is not responsible, nor should she be, for what other people may think or feel about what she’s doing, so it is not she who should sacrifice her own comfort as well as her baby’s just to kowtow to a bunch of intolerant busybodies.

  42. bobaloo

    …it is always funny when you right wing extremists…

    If I had a penny for everytime you labeled someone who disagrees with you a right wing extremist I’d be a rich man.

  43. entopticon

    Golly, you are right bobaloo. You would have hundreds of pennies. Don’t spend it all in one place. And if you had intelligence you would be an intelligent man. Sorry things didn’t work out that way for you.

  44. entopticon

    Thank you for explaining that so well Kriss. Hopefully it won’t fall on deaf ears.

    Sorry Think of Others (sic) but I just found that last post of yours too incomprehensible to muddle through. If you have a problem with women breast feeding in public it is your problem, not theirs. As I already said, take your own advice. If it doesn’t hurt you, just ignore it.

    As for your statement about the “new society,” implying that people are so much less moral now than days gone by, I was merely pointing out the fact that that is a load of baloney. It’s a tired old chestnut that I regularly hear from right wingers. There have actually been a few very god books written on the subject of the false conception that people used to be much more moral. Check it out if you are interested.

  45. Think of Others

    KRISS/ENTOPTICON:

    Pardon the caps (THAT’LL BE MY COMMENTS)… but I guess I’ll insert comments into your “explanation.” (Quoting you, left in lower case)

    OK, Think of Others, if you really don’t think the sight of a human breast does anyone any harm, then how could it make anyone uncomfortable?

    WHEN I BLOW MY NOSE/FLATULATE/OR RELIEVE MYSELF, I ALSO FEEL THAT SOMEONE COULD FIND THAT OFFENSIVE AND CHOOSE TO BE DISCREET ABOUT IT… ALL NATURAL FUNCTIONS THAT I HAVE A RIGHT TO DO, BUT DON’T FEEL THE NEED TO REVEAL TO OTHERS.

    People generally

    GLAD YOU USED THE WORD GENERALLY – YOU ARE CORRECT – NOT ALWAYS

    get uncomfortable when there’s some kind of actual physical contact that doesn’t feel good – such as sitting on a hard bottom chair for a long time – or if there’s some kind of potential threat to their well being – such as someone pointing a gun at them. A human female breast is about the least threatening thing I can think of. Why would that make someone uncomfortable?

    YOU’RE ASKING A RHETORICAL QUESTION WITH NO DEFINITIVE ANSWER. I’M MERELY ACKNOWLEDGING AND SAYING IT DOES. I CAN’T EXPLAIN WHY! … AND AGAIN… IT PERSONALLY DOESN’T BOTHER ME IN THE LEAST.

    And even so, for whatever illogical

    THERE YA GO CALLING A CONTRASTING OPINION ILLOGICAL – YOU SHOULD GET OUT OF THAT HABIT.

    reason someone might be “uncomfortable,” your reasoning is that better the nursing mother be made uncomfortable than someone staring at her. Why should she be the one that must change what she’s doing? A nursing mother is minding her own business, which has nothing to do with what other people are doing. People who may be watching her and getting “uncomfortable,” are NOT minding their own business, and that has EVERYTHING to do with what SOMEONE ELSE is doing. Why should their feelings – whether justified or not – take priority over the feelings of the nursing mother?

    THEY SHOULDN’T. BUT IT’S CALLED – OR USED TO BE ANYWAY – COMMON COURTESY. IT’S NOT ABOUT MORALS OR RIGHTEOUSNESS… IT’S SIMPLY ABOUT EMPATHY AND CONSIDERATION. IT WOULD BE CONSIDERATE FOR BREAST FEEDING MOTHERS TO MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO COVER THEMSELVES UP. AND BEING A FATHER WHO’S BRED SEVERAL TIMES AND ISN’T A NEOPHYTE AT ALL THAT IS CHILD REARING I CAN TELL YOU ON BEHALF OF MY WIFE THAT DISCREETLY COVERING UP IN NO WAY MAKES THE MOTHER OR CHILD UNCOMFORTABLE.

    That’s what I cannot understand, which seems to be what you keep saying. She is hurting no one. It’s not her fault in any way whatsoever if the people watching have some kind of personal hang-up about the sight of a mother nursing and a little bit of breast showing, which therefore makes them “uncomfortable.” She is not responsible, nor should she be, for what other people may think or feel about what she’s doing, so it is not she who should sacrifice her own comfort as well as her baby’s just to kowtow to a bunch of intolerant busybodies.

    AND I GUESS THAT’S WHERE WE DISAGREE. JUST AS THE ‘INTOLERANT BUSYBODY’ MOST OFTEN DOESN’T STARE AT A NURSING MOTHER, THE NURSING MOTHER COULD PUT EFFORT INTO COVERING UP. THE MAJORITY OF US WHO FEEL THIS WAY AREN’T TRYING TO BE OFFENSIVE – JUST AS NURSING MOTHERS AREN’T TRYING TO BE OFFENSIVE.

    THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN INTOLERANCES AND HANG-UPS AMONG PEOPLE ON PLANET EARTH AND THERE ALWAYS WILL BE.

    AN EXERCISE ALL PARTIES SHOULD CONSIDER IS THIS: THINK ABOUT THE THINGS ABOUT YOURSELF THAT YOU DON’T LIKE. EVERYONE HAS THEM. THINK ABOUT HOW DIFFICULT, OFTEN IMPOSSIBLE IT IS FOR YOU TO CHANGE THEM. NOW THINK ABOUT YOUR ODDS OF CHANGING THE WAY SOMEONE ELSE IS. YOU CAN’T. HOWEVER – YOU CAN DISCUSS AS WE’RE DOING HERE – AND SEEK MIDDLE GROUND. I BELIEVE THAT IS WHERE MY OPINIONS ORIGINATE. OBSTINANCE OR AS I CALL IT, ME VS. YOU, IS ULTIMATELY WHAT IS GOING TO END THIS PLANET. LET’S TRY TO REACH A MIDDLE GROUND ON THE EASY STUFF! PEACE OUT.

  46. Hank Chinaski

    My mom was a lactation consultant when I was growing up, so breast feeding has never been a big deal to me. Some people are raised differently, and taught that breast feeding is something that should be done in private. To say that no one could possibly be offended is just silly. Is it silly that it offends them? Sure. But why not respect the fact that it makes them uncomfortable, and just cover up. It’s not that big of a deal. If you show respect, even to “right-wing extremists”, you usually get respect back.

    Speaking of busybodies, couldn’t you call a person who stages a “nurse-in” at Denny’s because the manager asked her to cover her breast a busybody?

  47. Jacquie Hammond

    There as been little mention of the Child in these posts and what their rights may be. I get a bit emotional when I think of the days when I would look down at my son while he nursed, warm and safe in my arms being fed the utmost in nutrition. How our eyes would meet and the connection was primal.. I was reminded that I AM an animal, I am a mother. My body is keeping this sweet little innocent creature ALIVE!! Amazing. We are all here because of this perfectly designed feature! My child knows nothing of the anger or the offense he may be causing others just by his mere act of surviving and thriving. Is my child eating so offensive as to be compared to Flatulence and Urination? Who is that helping other then yourself? I am equipped with the perfect means of giving my child all the protein, fat, antibodies, water he needs when he needs it.
    There is a disconnect somewhere in our fast past modern life. Somewhere along the way many have forgotten what we are.. We are animals.. nursing further cements that fact… If the sight of a mama nursing her baby offends you look at the BABY does he/she offend you too? My son has no means to offend, he is merely trying to grow into a strong human animal. Help him grow up to be a man thankful for his mama not shameful!

  48. Kriss

    Think of Others wrote: “WHEN I BLOW MY NOSE/FLATULATE/OR RELIEVE MYSELF, I ALSO FEEL THAT SOMEONE COULD FIND THAT OFFENSIVE AND CHOOSE TO BE DISCREET ABOUT IT… ALL NATURAL FUNCTIONS THAT I HAVE A RIGHT TO DO, BUT DON’T FEEL THE NEED TO REVEAL TO OTHERS.”

    It is patently ludicrous to equate breastfeeding with relieving oneself or other similar bodily functions. That is certainly very revealing as to where your mind is, and that would probably explain why you hold breastfeeding in public in such low regard.

    “YOU’RE ASKING A RHETORICAL QUESTION WITH NO DEFINITIVE ANSWER.”

    That was your response to my question, “Why would that [breastfeeding in public] make someone uncomfortable?” It’s not a rhetorical question at all. I originally asked how seeing a female breast, such as when breastfeeding, did any harm to anyone. You responded that it did not do any harm to anyone, but made people uncomfortable. So I’m just asking why that is. Surely you or someone else can answer that simple question.

    “I’M MERELY ACKNOWLEDGING AND SAYING IT DOES. I CAN’T EXPLAIN WHY! … AND AGAIN… IT PERSONALLY DOESN’T BOTHER ME IN THE LEAST.”

    If it doesn’t bother you in the least, then why are you so adamant in defending those whom it does seem to bother and continue to imply that the breastfeeding mom was in the wrong? Yet you cannot seem to explain why it would bother anyone.

    “THERE YA GO CALLING A CONTRASTING OPINION ILLOGICAL – YOU SHOULD GET OUT OF THAT HABIT.”

    I said that because I don’t see any logic in someone being “uncomfortable” with seeing a female breast. But I gave you ample opportunity to explain the logic in such a feeling. Since you are unable to do that, then in a way you are confirming that it is indeed illogical (refer to your “I CAN’T EXPLAIN WHY!”).

    “THEY SHOULDN’T. BUT IT’S CALLED – OR USED TO BE ANYWAY – COMMON COURTESY. IT’S NOT ABOUT MORALS OR RIGHTEOUSNESS… IT’S SIMPLY ABOUT EMPATHY AND CONSIDERATION.”

    That was in response to my question, “Why should their feelings – whether justified or not – take priority over the feelings of the nursing mother?” Indeed it is about common courtesy, empathy and consideration. And the people who complained and made a big issue out of the young mother breastfeeding at Denny’s lacked all of those qualities.

    “IT WOULD BE CONSIDERATE FOR BREAST FEEDING MOTHERS TO MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO COVER THEMSELVES UP.”

    No, it was not her place to cover up since she was doing nothing wrong or illegal. I know I’ve said this, and others have said this, over and over, but you and others like you just don’t seem to get it, and unfortunately may not ever get it. But that doesn’t change the facts. Whether or not the complainers were “uncomfortable” or not makes no difference. It was not the breastfeeding mother’s fault or responsibility for them being “uncomfortable.” And it was not her place to try to make them “comfortable.” There were really only two appropriate choices for those people’s predicament. They could look away or they could leave. Complaining to Denny’s management was not an appropriate course of action, because there was really nothing to complain about, since the breastfeeding mother was within her rights under the law as well as doing no harm to anyone. It was they who were being inconsiderate and discourteous by making such an issue out of it.

  49. Think of Others

    It is patently ludicrous to equate breastfeeding with relieving oneself or other similar bodily functions. That is certainly very revealing as to where your mind is, and that would probably explain why you hold breastfeeding in public in such low regard.

    THERE YA GO – JUDGING WHAT IS ‘LUDICROUS’ AND TELLING ALL OF US HOW WE CAN FEEL… YET YOU SEEM SO UNCOMFORTABLE WHEN IT’S SUGGESTED YOU DO THE SAME! CONTROL FREAK? NATURALLY OBSTINATE? HOW YOU CAN GATHER FROM MY OPINIONS THAT I ‘HOLD BREAST FEEDING IN PUBLIC IN SUCH LOW REGARD’ IS MIND BOGGLING! FEED AWAY!!!! JUST EXERCISE A LITTLE CONSIDERATION FOR OTHERS!

    “Why would that [breastfeeding in public] make someone uncomfortable?” It’s not a rhetorical question at all. I originally asked how seeing a female breast, such as when breastfeeding, did any harm to anyone. You responded that it did not do any harm to anyone, but made people uncomfortable. So I’m just asking why that is. Surely you or someone else can answer that simple question.

    SURELY I CAN’T – AND THAT SEEMS TO BOTHER YOU! I’M NOT CRAZY ABOUT SEEING A MAN WITH HIS SHIRT OFF IN PUBLIC EITHER… DON’T ASK ME WHY! YOU’RE NEVER GOING TO CHANGE SOCIETAL NORMS OR HOW PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT SUCH ISSUES NO MATTER HOW MUCH WHINING OR SITTING IN YOU DO! BEST WISHES TRYING.

    If it doesn’t bother you in the least, then why are you so adamant in defending those whom it does seem to bother and continue to imply that the breastfeeding mom was in the wrong?

    IF YOU’LL GET OFF YOUR OBSTINATE HORSE, YOU’LL SEE I’M ‘ADAMANTLY’ DEFENDING BOTH SIDES! – THERE’S THAT FRUITLESS ME VS. YOU THING I’VE WARNED YOU ABOUT! – AND I’M NOT IMPLYING ANYTHING THAT SUGGESTS THE BREAST FEEDING MOM WAS IN THE WRONG…. I AM IMPLYING SHE’S (JUST LIKE THE OFFENDED DINERS) A BIT INCONSIDERATE, SELF CENTERED, INTOLERANT OF OTHERS SENSITIVITIES AND MAY BE A BIT ATTENTION HUNGRY… BUT NEVER, DID I SAY OR IMPLY THAT HER BREASTFEEDING IN PUBLIC IS WRONG. YOU, LIKE MANY ARGUMENTATIVE FOLKS ARE SELECTING TO COMPREHEND WHAT YOU WANT TO COMPREHEND!

    …and last but not least….

    No, it was not her place to cover up since she was doing nothing wrong or illegal. I know I’ve said this, and others have said this, over and over, but you and others like you just don’t seem to get it, and unfortunately may not ever get it. But that doesn’t change the facts. Whether or not the complainers were “uncomfortable” or not makes no difference. It was not the breastfeeding mother’s fault or responsibility for them being “uncomfortable.” And it was not her place to try to make them “comfortable.”

    THAT DOESN’T SOUND OBSTINATE, SELFISH AND INCONSIDERATE TO YOU? PLEASE RE-READ YOUR WORDS? DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A PERSON GOING OUT OF THEIR WAY TO SEEK HARMONY WITHIN SOCIETY?

    There were really only two appropriate choices for those people’s predicament. They could look away or they could leave. Complaining to Denny’s management was not an appropriate course of action, because there was really nothing to complain about,

    ACCORDING TO YOU

    since the breastfeeding mother was within her rights under the law as well as doing no harm to anyone.

    AGAIN – ACCORDING TO YOU

    It was they who were being inconsiderate and discourteous by making such an issue out of it.

    COURTESY AND CONSIDERATION ARE A TWO WAY STREET. CITIZENS IN A CIVIL COMMUNITY MUST LEARN HOW TO MELD THEIR SENTIMENTS WITH THOSE OF OTHERS SO THAT ALL CONFLICT CAN BE AVOIDED. MAYBE THEY COULD HAVE TURNED THE OTHER WAY. MAYBE MOM COULD HAVE TRIED TO BE MORE SUBTLE… IT AINT ROCKET SCIENCE!

  50. Think of Others

    Jacquie Hammond

    Bingo! Nicely said. All true. But by saying:

    “Help him grow up to be a man thankful for his mama not shameful!”

    PLEASE TELL ME YOU’RE NOT IMPLYING THAT COVERING UP A BIT WHILE BREAST FEEDING IN PUBLIC COULD INDUCE SHAME!????

    Is my child eating so offensive as to be compared to Flatulence and Urination?

    THE ONLY COMPARISON IS THAT THEY ARE NATURAL BODILY FUNCTIONS WE ALL HAVE A RIGHT TO EXERCISE.

    Who is that helping other then yourself? I am equipped with the perfect means of giving my child all the protein, fat, antibodies, water he needs when he needs it.

    AND THIS WONDERFUL EQUIPMENT ALL WOMEN HAVE WORKS JUST AS WELL UNDER A LIGHT WEIGHT, OPAQUE COVER.

  51. Kriss

    Hank wrote: “…Some people are raised differently, and taught that breast feeding is something that should be done in private.”

    I don’t disagree with that. Some people are indeed taught that and believe that.

    “To say that no one could possibly be offended is just silly.”

    I’m not sure who said no one could possibly be offended. Of course some people seem to be “offended.” I just said such a feeling was illogical.

    “Is it silly that it offends them? Sure.”

    I guess we’re in agreement on that as well.

    “But why not respect the fact that it makes them uncomfortable, and just cover up. It’s not that big of a deal. If you show respect, even to “right-wing extremists”, you usually get respect back.”

    Now you’re talking about respect, and I think your use of that term is misplaced. You and some others seem to think it’s the complainers who are supposed to be “respected,” but the nursing mother is not. The complainers’ attitude was that since they have certain likes or dislikes, then others around them should be forced to conform to those likes or dislikes. I see no reason to give such an attitude any particular respect. It’s not as if the nursing mother was saying anything insulting to them or taking any overt action to purposefully disturb their enjoyment of their dining experience. She was minding her own business, doing what she had a legal right to do, and not bothering anybody. If anyone claimed to be bothered by what they were seeing, that was a personal issue in their own mind, not something the breastfeeding mother or Denny’s had any control over.

    “Speaking of busybodies, couldn’t you call a person who stages a “nurse-in” at Denny’s because the manager asked her to cover her breast a busybody?”

    No, I think you could call her someone who stands up for her rights.

  52. entopticon

    Well said again, Kriss.

    I actually found it offensive to call an intelligent, thoughtful mother who was standing up for her rights a busybody. It’s perfectly reasonable for me to be offended. Many people would agree that there is nothing offensive about breast feeding, but there is plenty offensive about calling women busybodies and whores.

    By Hank’s own logic, he shouldn’t speak. If people followed the ridiculous logic that we should never do anything that offends another person, even in cases where we weren’t doing anything wrong whatsoever, the entire world would come to a grinding halt.

  53. kansas city mom

    As a mom who nursed her two children in the privacy of her home and in public; when I saw this on the news, I found the woman in this story looking to find her 5 minutes of fame locally.

    I myself think that most people do not find the act of a woman nursing a baby to be anything more than natural. However; pulling up your shirt, removing the top portion of your bra, and bringing a nipple into few view of the public is bound to raise a few eyebrows over breakfast. Especially if the woman is not doing any of these things discretely. Nursing is a beautiful thing! Breasts are a beautiful thing! And I know that the law protects the women who nurse in public and that is a GOOD THING! But let’s respect our bodies enough to not try to shock people! That is what I gathered from this woman. Maybe she is bored and wants attention. Maybe it’s just me. I would have left the restaurant with both of my children who I nursed. I didn’t order a side of nipple with my scrambled eggs….

  54. Hank Chinaski

    Kriss,
    I think women should breast feed wherever they want. I just don’t understand not having a little compassion for people that are obviously more uptight than you and I are. The way I look at it, it’s taking the high road, not giving in. I’m all for standing up for your rights, but I’m also of the opinion that we all have to live here together for a few decades, why not minimize the confrontation? There is enough of that in other facets of life, why not just put a blanket over yourself, enjoy your meal, and laugh at the uptight folks when you leave.
    I love laughing at uptight folks, and have a lot of opportunities to do so.

  55. entopticon

    kansas city mom, you were wrong about virtually everything except one thing. When you said “Maybe it’s just me” you were spot on.

    Your statement that women should respect their bodies as if they don’t respect them if they breast feed in public was particularly asinine. If the sight of a woman breast feeding would make you pick up and leave a restaurant, I seriously recommend a few years of psychotherapy for your Freudian issues. If you really are so twisted that the sight of a woman breast feeding disturbs you, you should try not looking next time because it is a lot easier.

  56. entopticon

    It is absolutely hilarious that (Doesn’t) Think of Others keeps lecturing everybody else on courteousness WHILE YELLING AT US WITH ALL CAPS! The hypocritical irony is side-splitting, but it also sums up the nonsensical hypocrisy of (Doesn’t) Think of Others entire argument perfectly.

  57. kansas city mom

    entopticon:
    You are obviously looking for an argument and I have far better things to do with my time than justify myself on and on with you. I thought this was an open forum for people to extend their opinions… you are probably the silly woman in this story looking for more attention… have fun.

  58. Think of Others

    Entopticon.. you have REAL issues! I think you might be a whack job.

    Nobody is “YELLING AT YOU WITH ALL CAPS” As was clearly stated when I first started using caps on 2-26 at 9:22 a.m. “Pardon the caps (THAT’LL BE MY COMMENTS)… but I guess I’ll insert comments into your “explanation.” (Quoting you, left in lower case)”

    What part of that didn’t you choose to comprehend? You are an embarrassment to all that is civil dialogue and courtesy. Obstinate, inconsiderate adn selfish… as I said when I first piped in on this ridiculously lame topic… me me me me me… You’re one of them. Stop it.

  59. kansas city mom

    I would however like to clarify on my remark that I would have left the restaurant with my 9 and 6 year old children. It has NOTHING to do with a woman nursing in public (that would be asinine; seeing as I nursed in public myself). It has to do with when the situation got heated with her and management and law enforcement was called to the scene. No child should be involved in that kind of a scene. And most of all, not my children and that is my choice.

  60. entopticon

    kansas city mom, you attacked a perfectly innocent woman who stood up for herself after being wrongfully treated for minding her own business. You’re darned straight I am looking to argue against your shameful blather. The hypocrisy of you casting dispersions on that poor woman for standing up for herself and others like her is just plain sad. The truth is, you are the silly one that is just vying for attention here.

  61. entopticon

    A whack job? Golly (Doesn’t) Think of Others… You don’ t say (anything intelligent).

    Go ahead, look at every single netiquette site on the web; they will all tell you the same exact thing. Using all caps is VERY RUDE. It is absolutely hilarious that you want us to make a special exception for you, when you are the one who was going on about prescribed social norms. Your hypocrisy really is hysterically funny.

    I am an embarrassment to courtesy? You have been attacking an innocent woman who harmed no one with your poorly reasoned blather, which makes you the embarrassment. What part of that DON’T YOU comprehend?

    I guess I shouldn’t be too surprized that you are more than a bit slow on the uptake. I am still laughing about the fact that you actually used that adage about a punch in the nose not realizing that it meant exactly the opposite of what you were trying to say. I have to say that it really did show a remarkable lack of character on your part that you didn’t own up to that even after you were called out on your mistake.

    Go on (Doesn’t) Think of Others, give us some more of your ME, ME, ME. You want people who are doing absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever to cater to your mentally disturbed whims, which makes you beyond selfish and myopic.

  62. Kriss

    Hank wrote: “I think women should breast feed wherever they want. I just don’t understand not having a little compassion for people that are obviously more uptight than you and I are.”

    So you feel we should have compassion for people who are clearly in the wrong at the expense of those who are clearly in the right? That might make some sense if the people who are inappropriately uptight over some matter that’s really none of their business were doing no harm to anyone else by having that attitude. But that clearly was not the case at Denny’s that day. They caused a confrontation, a big scene, the police being called, and ultimately a family who had been hurting no one being ejected from the restaurant. And we’re supposed to have compassion for such an intolerant, uptight, neo-puritanical lynch mob? I don’t think so.

    “The way I look at it, it’s taking the high road, not giving in. I’m all for standing up for your rights, but I’m also of the opinion that we all have to live here together for a few decades, why not minimize the confrontation?”

    In other words, you’re saying that as long as there is the possibility that someone might challenge your rights, you’d just as soon waive them, and then everybody would be happy and live in harmony. I don’t agree. Unfortunately, it is a fact of life in this world, and particularly in these United States, the land of the free, that if we are to live with any integrity and self-respect at all, occasionally we must take a stand on what we know or believe is right, regardless of opposition from certain others who may be convinced that they know better than us as to how we should live our own lives.

  63. Kriss

    Btw, Think of Others, I agree with entopticon on your use of the caps. It is getting a little annoying. Surely you can figure out how to quote others and then respond yourself without resorting to caps by merely looking at a few other posts here and the way others have done it.

  64. Hank Chinaski

    Kriss,
    Just to give an example, my grandmother is a super sweet woman. You would all love her given the chance to meet her. She’s a prude though, and would probably be upset by breast feeding in public, hell she would probably tell the manager to do something. Is that ridiculous? Absolutely, but she just has different values, and different views on the way things should be. I don’t let people like that bother me, just give them some space and giggle.
    I’m all for fighting to protect your rights, it’s one of the most American things you can do. I just honestly don’t think that this issue is worth as much effort as this lady is giving it. Obviously you and I have differing opinions on that. That’s fine. I’m just saying I pick my battles, and to me, there are much bigger issues that could use the energy and attention that this issue is getting. This just seems petty to me, but I do respect the fact that you are so passionate about it, and in no way think you are wrong. I just can’t believe that it’s such a big deal. Thanks for the civil exchange.

  65. Kriss

    Think of Others wrote: “THERE YA GO – JUDGING WHAT IS ‘LUDICROUS’ AND TELLING ALL OF US HOW WE CAN FEEL…”

    That was in response to my statement, “It is patently ludicrous to equate breastfeeding with relieving oneself or other similar bodily functions.” If I think something is ludicrous, I can say it is ludicrous. I’m not telling you or anyone else how to feel. I’m telling you how I feel. Simple as that. If you don’t happen to agree, instead of resorting to calling names (“CONTROL FREAK”, etc.), just tell me how and why you don’t agree.

    “SURELY I CAN’T [answer that question] – AND THAT SEEMS TO BOTHER YOU!”

    Doesn’t bother me at all that you are unable to answer. This was in regard to my question as to why anyone would be uncomfortable at seeing a female breast while breastfeeding. In fact, your inability to answer that question pretty much confirms what I have been thinking all along, that there is no logical answer to that question.

    “DON’T ASK ME WHY! YOU’RE NEVER GOING TO CHANGE SOCIETAL NORMS OR HOW PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT SUCH ISSUES NO MATTER HOW MUCH WHINING OR SITTING IN YOU DO! BEST WISHES TRYING.”

    So-called “SOCIETAL NORMS” have been changed throughout history by people willing to fight for what they believed was right. I think plenty of examples have already been given by entopticon and others.

  66. Think of Others

    entopticon… best of luck on that lonely little island you’re living on.

    only you would be searching “netiquette sites on the web” in pursuit of advice on how to conduct oneself. Did all you readers out there read me asking for an exception to be made for me???? (Honestly – where do you get this stuff?)

    can’t help but wonder where you got the twisted view on the ‘nose punch adage’ but I do understand how someone like you could twist it to suit your needs.

    and now I’m a hypocrite. Not! You are truly amazing… your opinions are so darn popular you should run for public office!

    You said, “You have been attacking an innocent woman who harmed no one with your poorly reasoned blather” Whaaaaaaa???? Seriously – do you think or analyze anything before you rant???

    You said, “You want people who are doing absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever to cater to your mentally disturbed whims, which makes you beyond selfish and myopic”… seriously… get some help.

  67. Think Of Otters

    I HATE MAMMALS! People should learn to transfer nutrients to their young via something less offensive, like, perhaps, regurgitating partially digested food into their child’s mouth. Or perhaps transferring complex protein strains by holding hands.

    Breast Feeding is a communist plot.

  68. Kriss

    “…This just seems petty to me, but I do respect the fact that you are so passionate about it, and in no way think you are wrong. I just can’t believe that it’s such a big deal.”

    I can understand how you might not see this as all that important an issue, since as a man you’ve never had to personally deal with it. I’m a man as well (I realize my name may be misleading as to my gender), and though I’ll never have to personally deal with it either, I’ve always felt very strongly about personal freedom and the right to live ones life as one pleases as long as there’s no harm done to any other person.

    “Thanks for the civil exchange.”

    Thanks for saying that. I appreciate it. Btw, I’d love to meet your grandmother.

  69. Kriss

    My last post was in response to Hank. Sorry, I inadvertently left your name out.

  70. entopticon

    (Doesn’t) Think of Others, I didn’t just suggest that you were being extremely hypocritical, I incontrovertibly proved it beyond any shadow of doubt. Since you are clearly more than a bit slow on the uptake, let me give you a hand.

    YOU are the one that went on and on about how selfish YOU think it is not to abide by social norms for the sake of the comfort of others. You even used that as your moniker!

    There are hundreds of millions of references on the web to the fact that using all caps is extremely RUDE. That is not some obscure opinion that I dug up, it is a plain and simple fact, as evidenced by every single netiquette site there is. Obviously, that makes it the social norm.

    You used all caps anyway, and then argued that since you forewarned us that you were going to do it, you should be a special exception and we shouldn’t consider it rude as we would when when anyone else on Earth uses all caps.

    I’ve unassailably proved my case and if you have any character or intellectual integrity at all you will eat some humble pie and own up to that fact.

    As far as the punch in the nose adage goes, the whole point of the adage is that you have the right to be annoying and offend, but your rights end once you cross the line and do actual harm. That is not my “twisted view” of the adage, it is the one and only legitimate meaning. The adage means that you have the right to be annoying, but your right ends when you cross the line to harming me.

    You argued that it meant that I have the right to do what I want until it annoys you. That literally is the opposite of the whole point of the adage. Again, if you do not acknowledge that you are not being remotely intellectually honest. No matter how you slice it, I am right and you are wrong about this. If you have character you will own up to that.

    As you can see, I do in fact think about what I say before I speak, and I have incontrovertibly proven that you do not. Perhaps you would if you thought of others for a change.

  71. Kriss

    Think of Otters, perhaps regurgitation, as you suggest, as a method of feeding the young would indeed be much more acceptable to the after-church crowd at Denny’s, for the idea that God had when he created the female breast was obviously a big mistake on His part. Otherwise, there would be no shame or embarrassment at the sight of it being used for its intended purpose.

  72. Think of Others

    entopticon just can’t be wrong! It’s truly fascinating! Apparently (according to king/queen entopticon)I am wrong and entipticon needs me to qualify for the title of ‘person of integrity’ or ‘person of character’ by saying that I am wrong. (I chuckle because you have no clue with whom you’re speaking and your comments have been reduced to you bringing my character and integrity into question) People like you talk yourselves into corners all the time when opposing points of view don’t give up. Thanks for proving that point with your last post. Your ‘word twisting disease’ reminds me of past president Bill Clinton. Go back and read EVERY (yes, I guess I’m emphasizing EVERY… want to make sure you get how important it is to be sequentially all inclusive) post between us and I think you’ll find yourself to be a bit out of line. I’ll paste in my original post here: and anyone who wants to can scoll up to read how entopticon twisted off to ‘tangent land’ with her response(s) to me:

    “Yet another example of our ‘me me me me me’ society. I refuse to choose sides because I’m completely neutral on the issue. BUT…. and this one is for you breast baring, indiscreet women out there… What if… JUST WHAT IF SOMEONE ELSE (remember them?) IS offended by your act. Don’t they have the same right as you to enjoy their life in peace? The obvious compromise here is to not be proudly flashing boob as though it were nothing. TO the majority- it IS something, so why not consider their sentiments as well as your own and just be a bit more sensitive to their comfort, just as you’re asking them to be to your convenience? Can we all just start thinking about other people a little bit more? Me me me me me has run its course and darn near ruined our culture.”

    I stand by my original and all subsequent statements.

    This obviously divisive, albeit minor non-issue has been blown way out of proportion by a few argumentative posters scratching and clawing for something to whine about. I challenge you to NOT respond to this and suspect you won’t be able to bring yourself to do so. You’re done.

  73. vrede

    I was eating in Denny’s the other day and found in their magazine rack a National Geographic with a pictorial article on a primitive New Guinea tribe. You won’t believe what I saw there… it’s too shameful and offensive to describe. I complained to the manager and called the cops.

  74. entopticon

    (Doesn’t) Think of Others (or apparently at all)…. You are a riot. You are guilty of virtually everything that you accuse others of.

    Hilariously, you attack the character of others, but you whine like a little girl when it comes back at you. You claim that I backed myself into a corner, but the truth is that my arguments where airtight and you had no cogent response whatsoever because of that. You decry being rude, but even after I incontrovertibly proved that you were being very rude by using all caps, you didn’t even have the integrity to take responsibility for your behavior, and you still don’t.

    I didn’t suggest you were wrong, I absolutely proved it, and the fact that you couldn’t even offer any compelling counter argument whatsoever is just further proof that you were wrong. Since my argument was completely unassailable you couldn’t argue on the facts. Instead you just squawked like a chicken hoping that nobody will notice that you were publicly humiliated. It would have been a lot less humiliating for you after I had incontrovertibly proved you wrong if you had had the integrity to own up to your mistake. You just made it worse by being a coward about it.

    Why on Earth would I care about your asinine dare? Of course you don’t want me to respond to you because I exposed your hypocrisy and cowardice. I dare you to tar and feather yourself. It would be entirely appropriate, but I doubt you will take me up on that dare.

    So I remind you of a Rhodes scholar that presided over the longest period of economic growth in American history while leveling off the national debt and even paying down against the deficit? Thanks, I’ll take that as a compliment.

    You remind me of an American President as well. George Bush, a C student who never could have gotten anywhere on his own merit, who took the strongest economy in the history of our nation and brought it to its knees, who created the worst economic disparity in nearly a century, who has the worst environmental record of any President in history, who increased the national debt more than every other US President in US history combined, who trampled all over our civil liberties, and who mad us the laughing stock of the entire world. Most of all, you remind me of him because just like him, even after you are confronted with the indisputable truth, you still don’t have the integrity to just take responsibility for yourself and move on. Very George Bush indeed.

  75. bobaloo

    you whine like a little girl

    Why must you stereotype little girls in such a manner? It’s this kind of dangerous, ill-thought comment that leads to the stigmatization and degradation of women.

  76. entopticon

    Actually bobaloo, it doesn’t. For a little girl to whine it is age appropriate. For an adult it is not. If someone cries like a baby it is not disparaging to babies either. I really do love how you constantly try to be clever, but your ham-fisted attempts at reason always keep you from fulfilling that dream.

  77. entopticon

    You still don’t get it (Doesn’t) Think of Others (or at all for that matter)…

    You have no case. I incontrovertibly proved that you have no case. You have no counter argument because you know as well as I do that my argument left absolutely no wiggle room for you because the facts of my argument are absolutely unassailable. You can’t argue me on the facts because I proved my case.

    The truth stings, doesn’t it? Did you tar and feather yourself yet?

  78. bobaloo

    For a little girl to whine it is age appropriate.

    In that case why didn’t you say “little child” as opposed to making your insult about gender?
    Shame on you, masochist.

  79. entopticon

    I think you meant misogynist there bobaloo. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that you would confuse the two though. You certainly are entertaining, I will give you that.

    I was actually just parroting (Doesn’t) Think of Others phrase, “argumentative posters scratching and clawing for something to whine about.” I am surprised that no one seems to notice that I generally just parrot other people’s attacks when they are being unreasonable.

    If you were really offended, then I apologize for offending you. If you weren’t really offended and that was some inept stab at humor, then that really was pretty lame of you, but hey, it’s your time to waste.

  80. john

    i like breasts.

    Men with fat beer-bellies should be asked to eat in the bathroom, though.

  81. Homeviewer

    Dear Moderator:

    I believe you should take steps to edit “Entopticon’s” posts for diplomacy or stop them from making anymore remarks on this forum.

    Instead of commenting on the posts in a civil manner, they have been attacking almost everyone who has posted personally and with rancor and has virtually monopolized the discussion.

    Instead of continuing a thought provoking discussion with respected different opinions, it has become like watching individuals walk past a biting dog. It disrepects the topic and the people who care enough to post. Thank-you.

  82. entopticon

    Dear Homeviewer:

    As a matter of fact, my posts are moderated. It is interesting that on a subject where people have referred to an innocent woman as a whore and a host of other unconscionable insults, you chose to call me uncivil. Considering some of the astonishingly offensive things that have been said about this woman here, I find your characterization of those comments as “a thought provoking discussion with respected different opinions” to be beyond offensive. Frankly, that says a lot about your character, or more exactly, the lack thereof.

    If you don’t like my comments, don’t read them. Plenty of people of people have expressed gratitude for my posts, and that is enough for me.

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