Downtown vandalized by angry mob (including ongoing Twitter coverage)

This video shows some of the destruction left behind after a group of approximately 30 people wearing hoods and carrying bats and rocks walked through downtown Asheville smashing car windows and store fronts.

Video by http://www.ashevillevideoproductions.com/ Distributed by Tubemogul.

The news of last night’s organized violence downtown against personal and business property is captured here via Twitter. First, the tweets up until 11:20 a.m., then in the feed below is the ongoing coverage, which follows the hashtag #vandalavl. It is a moderated feed. Remember to refresh your web browser window to capture any tweets that arrive after you land on the page.

• Vandals destroy downtown Asheville storefronts, car windows: http: //bit.ly/9TRaUH http: //short.to/2a8jk
• AC-T photo essay: May 1 damage from 20-30 masked vandals trashing downtown bt C-T offices http: //bit.ly/aZd6GM
• May 1 vandal damage includes storefronts, car windows, ATM
• From @kipperisrad at 12:44 a.m. Sunday: “Once again Avl cars hammers shattered glass and no tweets? Battery park ave is f*cked up. What the hell is up?”
• Citizen reports that damage extends to parking deck behind Civic Center
• Vandalism reportedly extends to businesses on Wall Street in downtown Asheville, awaiting confirmation
• Thousands and thousands of dollars in damage, according to APD source
• Wall St. damage affected primarily autos, storefronts on Wall Street spared. Cars in Wall St Parking garage sustain lots of damage
• Wall St. parking garage also sustains some structural damage, including gate thingy—according to on-the spot citizen report
• Local Economic Development Nerd @sandymaxey assists in PR efforts downtown, reassuring tourists that vandalism is n “aberration”
• Reports indicate that AVL citizens are coming into town to assist in vandalism cleanup efforts
• Eyewitnesses to vandalism say actions “were terrifying,” bags of rocks baseball bats apparently used
• Large planters around Grove Arcade overturned
• Etched glass sculpture of completed vision of Grove Arcade building, located at Battery Park & Page Ave, is smashed & destroyed
• Sources indicate that last night’s violence may have been retaliation for recent jailing of tagger
• We’ll be sending out a camera crew shortly to the scene to survey the damage…as soon as they get out of their pajamas
• Pictures coming in from damage downtown: Window of RBC Bank on Battery Park & O henry: http://tweetphoto.com/20802908

— Photos by Michael Muller.

 

• Citizen cleaning up damage to car: http://tweetphoto.com/20803065

 

 

 

 

 

• Shell-shocked citizen holding sharp pointy bits: http://tweetphoto.com/20803141
• Contrary to prior reports, Grove Arcade glass etching not destroyed, just damaged: http://tweetphoto.com/20803330

• Store front damage: http://tweetphoto.com/20803555
• More storefornt damage: http://tweetphoto.com/20803657
• And some more storefront damage: http //tweetphoto.com/20803734
• Thanks to Asheville resident Braxton Patterson for the photos of the damage downtown.
• Our camera crew is finally out of their jammies & has brushed their teeth. Stay tuned! (cue upbeat – but not too upbeat – music)
• An’d we’re live from the scene of last night’s vandalism. Reports that downtown “war scene” highly exaggerated
• From @sthrnfrydpinko: “My whole point is they don’t seem 2 b anarchists at all based on their behavior, but CTimes wants to claim they are”
•    An’d we’re live from the scene of last night’s vandalism. Reports that downtown “war scene” highly exaggerated
•    Front of optometrist’s shop at Grove Arcade: http://tweetphoto.com/20806760
•    Front of Citizen-Times building: http://tweetphoto.com/20806930

•    Random person playing small guitar: http://tweetphoto.com/20807019
•    Detail of damage done to glass etching: http://tweetphoto.com/20807169
•    From jatkin02: Downtown Asheville vandals should be sentenced to 5 years Gulf coast oil cleanup. Build, not destroy.
•    From barbieangell: Downtown Asheville vandals should be sentenced to 5 years Gulf coast oil cleanup. Build, not destroy.
•    From Sazerac: Downtown businesses, let people impacted by vandalism know they r welcome & appreciated. Let’s get creative with discounts! Anyone owning a car vandalized last night, bring in your APD report and we’ll buy you an appetizer, soup or salad. AVL luvs its visititors

 

 

 

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About Jeff Fobes
As a long-time proponent of media for social change, my early activities included coordinating the creation of a small community FM radio station to serve a poor section of St. Louis, Mo. In the 1980s I served as the editor of the "futurist" newsletter of the U.S. Association for the Club of Rome, a professional/academic group with a global focus and a mandate to act locally. During that time, I was impressed by a journalism experiment in Mississippi, in which a newspaper reporter spent a year in a small town covering how global activities impacted local events (e.g., literacy programs in Asia drove up the price of pulpwood; soybean demand in China impacted local soybean prices). Taking a cue from the Mississippi journalism experiment, I offered to help the local Green Party in western North Carolina start its own newspaper, which published under the name Green Line. Eventually the local party turned Green Line over to me, giving Asheville-area readers an independent, locally focused news source that was driven by global concerns. Over the years the monthly grew, until it morphed into the weekly Mountain Xpress in 1994. I've been its publisher since the beginning. Mountain Xpress' mission is to promote grassroots democracy (of any political persuasion) by serving the area's most active, thoughtful readers. Consider Xpress as an experiment to see if such a media operation can promote a healthy, democratic and wise community. In addition to print, today's rapidly evolving Web technosphere offers a grand opportunity to see how an interactive global information network impacts a local community when the network includes a locally focused media outlet whose aim is promote thoughtful citizen activism. Follow me @fobes

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147 thoughts on “Downtown vandalized by angry mob (including ongoing Twitter coverage)

  1. Piffy!

    Oh boy spoiled rich kids having a hissy fit and destroying peoples cars for workers rights idiots

  2. hkusp

    Pff,

    Over in the ACT forums, folks are questioning the Citizen-Times for stating that it is was a May Day-related action.

    I, for one, don’t believe in coincidences, and it does not appear that you do either.

  3. Dirk Diggler

    you call them ‘protesters’??? WHICH COURTROOM will they be in Monday morning?

    one of these punk girls is a rich kid from Charleston SC…clueless anti capitalism kidthugs from government screwls! they have learned the agenda!

  4. tatuaje

    I’m a little confused to why the word ‘protester’ is used in the headline.

    Has any information surfaced regarding the motivation for the vandalism?

    It seems to have been a group of college kids from out of town going on a stupid, destructive rampage.

    I’m worried that future legitimate protesters might be saddled with unfair connotations arising from this event.

    Goodness knows that the MSM has done enough of that over the years.

  5. “The violence is likely linked to the observance of May Day, a day for marking worker solidarity that has been seized upon for anti-capitalism displays of violence, especially by self-proclaimed anarchist groups in Europe.” -AC-T

    http://is.gd/bRfqw
    …………………….

  6. It’s nice that the ACT pulled that out of their asses, Tim, but unless the witnesses actually heard some words in all that shouting, I’d like more evidence, please.

  7. Sounds perfectly plausible to me. It fits the profile of the violent, angry Left.

    Do you have a better explanation?
    …………………….

  8. tatuaje

    David Forbes has linked at least 2 of the people arrested to radical groups: Bash Back! & the Kansas Mutual Aid anarchist collective.

    Arrrrgh!

    I wish I could throttle these little asshats!

  9. Betty Cloer Wallace

    “Just the facts, ma’am,” Sergeant Friday would say, and Walter Cronkite would agree.

  10. tatuaje

    It fits the profile of the violent, angry Left.

    Wow.

    And what profile is that?

    So everyone on the ‘left’ side of the political spectrum is violent and angry.

    RIIIIGHT.

    What would you say if I said that Tea Party demonstrations fit the ignorant, racist profile of the Right?

    See how generalizations like that are completely ridiculous?

  11. “And what profile is that?”

    The profile based on historical precedent, documentary evidence and common knowledge.

    The Tea Partiers do not in fact fit the profile you repeat. Because this is not a profile. This is a pure fabrication of the leftist media and leftist politicians.

    Some generalizations are helpful because they are generally true.
    ……………………….

  12. Tim,
    I think your description of these folks as “violent and angry” is right on, but adding “left” to that statement only serves to polarize.

    Because in this case, these kids’ political beliefs are irrelevant; they’re just an excuse for violence which no one with any sense, regardless of politics, would ever condone.

  13. tatuaje

    The profile based on historical precedent, documentary evidence and common knowledge.

    Again…

    So everyone on the ‘left’ side of the political spectrum is violent and angry.

    RIIIIGHT.

    The guy that flew his plane into the IRS was a Leftist?

    Ol’ Tim McVeigh?

    Those militias that just got rounded up a few months back?

    Come on Tim, use logic for once instead of your standard hyperbole.

    This is a pure fabrication of the leftist media and leftist politicians.

    *facepalm*

    Wow, so all of those racist, hateful signs I’ve seen photos of were photoshopped in by a conspiracy involving the ‘leftist media’?!?!?

    Tim, sometimes I worry that you have problems dressing yourself in the morning.

  14. wareagle82

    crack down on the offenders and do so harshly. Some of these punks should be ex-students by Monday morning. No excuse for trashing private property, but we see this sort of stuff from the fringe left all the time – G8 or G20 summits as one example.

    No tatu, not everyone on the left is violent; in fact, most are normal folks who speak their peace and drive on, just like most tea partiers are. The difference is, this sort of incident ties back to the fringe left, the sort of folks the rest of you should be condemning just as people on the right should condemn yahoos who do things like bomb abortion clinics.

  15. “but adding “left” to that statement only serves to polarize”

    I’m sorry, but anti-capitalism is a leftist thing. Some things are polar.
    ………………………..

  16. “Tim, sometimes I worry that you have problems dressing yourself in the morning.”

    It is interesting that you would introduce an invalid ‘ad hominem’ personal attack into your argument. I can only imagine why.
    ……………………….

  17. wareagle82

    tatu,
    Tim McVeigh was responding to the Branch Davidians attack in Waco, not out of any political ideology. The guy who flew his plane into the building, I believe leaned left. Does that matter? No, as these were individuals and any group is going to have a few yahoos in it. The behavior exhibited by these folks here is indicative of the fringe left – it’s what we see everytime the G8 or G20 or G anything get together.

    Just as anyone on the right would condemn McVeigh or Eric Rudolph, the left should condemn these yahoos. Consider this scenario – they are in the middle of smashing a car or truch when the owner walks up and pulls a gun from his trunk. Or the vehicle belongs to a few Rangers or SF guys in Asheville for a relaxing weekend. All of a sudden, the outcome is much different. At some point, punks like this will be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and ideology will be pointless.

    Dozens of tea party protests and not a single incident like this. Tell you what, let’s ask the accused how they typically vote. There is certainly nothing right-wing about anti-capitalist nuts who, ironically, busted up the shops of and chased away the customers of some likely liberal store owners. Doesn’t make me want to go downtown.

  18. tatuaje

    I’m sorry, but anti-capitalism is a leftist thing

    So anyone who disagrees with capitalism is leftist is therefore violent?

    But no one on the right is violent?

    Do you see how you’ve completely lost all since of logic?

  19. “But no one on the right is violent?”

    This is called ‘The Straw Man.” Another invalid argument.
    …………………….

  20. tatuaje

    Wow Tim.

    Once again, as ALWAYS, you can’t come up with one simple defense of the illogical arguments you put forth.

    Please show how the ‘Left’ is “historically” angry and violent and the ‘Right’ is not.

  21. “Some things are polar.”

    I know. Like bears. And ice caps. And large magnetic fields.

    Again, most folks, the majority of them, are upset and saddened by this kind of unneccesary violence and vandalism. These kids may think they’ve made a political statement, but they haven’t. They’ve just hurt and angered innocent people and businesses.

    So, what’s a constructive response? Can we start a fund to help some of these folks repair the damage (at least physically)? I’m betting a wide range of people in our community, even a few anarchists, would contribute.

  22. shadmarsh

    Edgy, Tat, et al
    Tim isn’t interested in any honest debate, he just wants to use this (non)issue to further his own little agenda, which I have no idea what that happens to be. (other than perhaps a clean up on aisle four, or possibly somehow fellating capitalism ).

  23. Thanks, Shad. Going to go run to help lower my blood pressure now. And try to stop wondering what “fellating capitalism” might look like.

  24. tatuaje

    So, what’s a constructive response? Can we start a fund to help some of these folks repair the damage (at least physically)? I’m betting a wide range of people in our community, even a few anarchists, would contribute.

    I think that’s a great idea EM, but I’m sure the insurance companies will take care of most of the costs involved. If not I know I for one would do what I can to help out.

    But it sure was nice to see the community come together this morning to help clean up.

    I think the most constructive thing to do is to avoid generalizing an entire segment of the population based on the aberrant actions of a few. This country is at each others’ throats these days because people forget that individuals and the issues they care about are complex and multi-faceted. Generalizing people rarely, if ever, helps to promote true conversation or cooperation.

    It seems to me that everyone thinks what happened last night was nothing more than a stupid act of misplaced anger. To try to turn it into anything else would be a pity.

  25. “It seems to me that everyone thinks what happened last night was nothing more than a stupid act of misplaced anger.”

    I have to assume that you will accept the actual explanation when it is revealed.
    ………………………….

  26. tatuaje

    Whatever their reasoning Tim, I’ll be hard pressed to think it was actually anything other than misplaced anger.

    Whatever point these kids were trying to make got lost in their misguided choice of tactics.

    So yes, Tim. Whatever explanation they give I will accept it.

  27. “But it sure was nice to see the community come together this morning to help clean up.”

    That’s what I love to hear, tat. One of those oh-so-obvious but unintended results of this kind of bad juju–good people coming together in community to help others. My kind of revolution.

  28. Piffy!

    With the level of sensationalism from the x press in this “article” and the off topic hyperbole from teh peck i can tell twitter “news” is as reliable as old mens fish stories. seriously this is some pitiful “reporting”

  29. Betty Cloer Wallace

    They aren’t “kids.” They’re adults, violent adult vandals, and we don’t know yet why this group of two dozen or more violent adult vandals did all that damage.

    Were they angry about something, and if so, what? Or were they just having a good time? What do witnesses say about their demeanor while they were smashing and bashing? What will they tell investigators once they start squealing on each other?

    Were they misguided by someone or some larger group or some cause? Did they think they were doing something right, or wrong, or good, or bad, or worthwhile? What did they expect to be the result, the consequence for their destructive actions?

    What is their prior record of such violence, if any?

    I’d really like to hear their explanations, or excuses, or whatever rationale they have to offer, right from the horses’ mouths.

    It was obviously planned violence, not a spontaneous event, and enquiring minds want to know why Asheville was the target of their destruction?

    Are they part of some larger group? And should we expect more of this violence? From others aligned with their “group” or from copy-cats?

  30. travelah

    Welcome to the spawn of the ‘Tard Nation but don’t call them ragtags … that would be racist and bigoted

  31. [b]Welcome to the spawn of the ‘Tard Nation but don’t call them ragtags … that would be racist and bigoted.[/b]

    Please keep on topic and leave racism out of this unless you have reason to believe race was a motivation in these crimes.

  32. tatuaje

    Once again travelha offers so much constructive input into the conversation.

  33. travelah

    Of course race wasn’t the motivation for these crimes just as racism is not the motivation for just about everything else the radicals cook up and accuse others of. On the other hand, these creeps are part of your culture and part of your social and political fabric. Steve, you have extolled the virtues of anarchistic action on more than one occasion. This is what YOU reap and you are as accountable for advocacy of these kinds of crimes as the perpetrators. You find anarchy intellectually stimulating and now it’s time for you to get off your comfortable rear end and go help the victims of your intellectualism run amok.

  34. Margaret

    This is just ridiculous. How could all this go on and no one did anything about it at the time? Where was the Police Department? I never even knew anything about it until I got on the computer.

  35. FYI: That link is from a May Day event last year. It’s interesting, and maybe even relevant, but it’s not from yesterday’s vandalism.

  36. Travelah: I’m going to politely request that you keep on topic on the comments to this blog post one more time. If you want to discuss my personal politics, take it to the forum.

  37. travelah

    My comments are on topic. Anarchy in the streets of Asheville is what happened last evening. The citizens of Asheville need to deal with these anarchists as common criminals and start looking at those behind it and those who promote it. I don’t give two cents for your politics. I’d give more than that see these anarchist creeps hauled to justice.

  38. travelah

    Betty, you are right that we do not have all the facts but there are some things we do know. They were not white middle aged moms engaged in a “tea party” protest. This was not a republican convention. This was violent anarchy in the streets on May day (albeit a rather stupid and lame attempt)in the heart of a small town that some love to think of as a leftist, weird enclave with it’s own anarchist sub-culture. Of course, the facts will be assembled at some point and perhaps, if I am right, some of the culprits who have helped foster this climate will also be held accountable.

  39. Jeff Fobes

    I changed the headline from “Downtown vandalized by protestors” to “Downtown vandalized by angry mob” because the comments above make a persuasive case that we don’t know the motivation of the vandals.

    It seems like a leap to call them “protesters” when we have yet to hear a cogent statement explaining their actions.

    I tried to retain the original “protestors” wording, striking through the word, but the website software did not allow strike through.

  40. wareagle82

    tatu,
    please tell me you have something better to offer than this: “So anyone who disagrees with capitalism is leftist is therefore violent? But no one on the right is violent?”

    The first sentence ascribes to me a conclusion that was not made and the second ignores things I did say. Typically, disagreement with capitalism does come from the left, but I did not say these fools were typical of the left at large, just the fringe of it. No, disagreement with capitalism does not imply violence but, when it occurs, chances are a fringe left group is behind it.

    Of course, people on the right can be violent and the Eric Rudolph example cited is just one instance. However, most on the right condemned Rudolph’s actions as not indicative of the group as a whole.

  41. tatuaje

    Thanks Jeff.

    I know it might seem pedantic, but it might help prevent some misplaced generalizations in the future.

    And they very well may have a specific agenda that they were trying to address. But I haven’t heard it yet.

  42. wareagle82

    Jeff,
    I get what you are doing from a journalistic viewpoint, but not sure it makes things better from the layman’s perspective. Does Asheville really want to cultivate the rep as a town where unruly mobs go on vandalism sprees for their own sake? And just as tourist season arrives.

    The shame of it is this – we’re talking about entrepreneurs dependent on the disposal income of others. Many of these entrepreneurs, we can likely conclude, tilt liberal though they are hardly anti-capitalist. It’s like people who tilt conservative but happily patronize these businesses and enjoy the atmosphere of downtown for its own sake. We may not all agree on taxation, Iraq and Iran, the value of govt-run health care, etc., but put all that aside for the sake of mutually-beneficial trade and commerce.

    If this has anything to do with May Day or similar things, we have a bunch of goons hurting people likely to agree with them on a host of issues. A similarity on the right is the guy convicted of killing George Tiller; pro-life is one thing..advocating murder is another.

    We can all disagree politically another day, but I would like to think we can agree on the need for harsh sanctions against this mob – those who are students are expelled; property owners and insurers will file civil suits against the perpetrators AND their parents; jail time..plus some restitution against those whose property was harmed. A wimpy response almost guarantees another incident; people like this have to believe the city will smack them and smack them hard. My two cents —

  43. Betty Cloer Wallace

    This kind of violence by “yobs” has become increasing rampant in Europe in recent years, especially in England, and we would do well to try to head off the same dysfunctionality and violence here.

    Check out the online British newspapers. Every day there are articles about “yobs” committing violence—not just to property, but to people, especially elders, teachers, disabled persons, children, and anyone else they think are vulnerable–and it’s not just singular attacks. It’s ongoing unwarranted taunting and harassment and ultimately serious violence.

    I fear that is our future here if we continue to extend our definition of childhood and do not start expecting young adults (they’re not “kids”) to be responsible for themselves, their families, and their communities.

    This kind of violence is inexcusable and legally actionable, and some severe consequences are in order, regardless of whatever precipitated it.

  44. tatuaje

    I did not say these fools were typical of the left at large, just the fringe of it.

    You didn’t. Tim Peck did. That’s who my comments were directed towards.

    However, most on the right condemned Rudolph’s actions as not indicative of the group as a whole.

    That’s what everyone’s doing here, too. Has anybody defended these people here?

    Didn’t think so.

  45. shadmarsh

    How do we know they were “angry?” Maybe they were just drunken spoiled brats with nothing better to do than to glom on to some vaguely political nihilism that made them feel bigger than the insignificant turds they are.

    and fyi, refering to them as “vandals” insults my Germanic heritage. In my learned opinion their behavior was much more like that of the Varangians.

  46. wareagle82

    However, most on the right condemned Rudolph’s actions as not indicative of the group as a whole.

    That’s what everyone’s doing here, too. Has anybody defended these people here?

    Didn’t think so.
    ———————–

    that misses the point. You objected to their being lumped with the anarchists of the far left.

  47. Betty Cloer Wallace

    They are not “kids.” They are adults. Here are the ages of the eleven who have been arrested so far: 17 / 18 / 19 / 19 / 19 /23 /24 / 24 / 25 / 26 / 26.

    And they are not “anarchists.” They vandalized private property, not any governmental entity, oppressive or otherwise–not the police department, nor the city council, nor the department of social services, etc., not even anything publicly owned (at least that we know of so far).

    They are a gang of adult vandals, pure and simple, for whatever reasons.

    (Varangians?)

  48. travelah

    Anarchists have as much respect for private property as they do public .. 10 years hard time for the lot.

  49. travelah

    Betty, some of the twitter stuff coming in on these creeps indicated they indeed do have anarchist backgrounds … imagine that.

  50. tatuaje

    Wow travelha. I didn’t realize you spoke for every anarchist in the world. None of whom have any personal property, of course. Because anarchy is against private property, right Professor T.?

    At least educate yourself on what anarchism is if you plan on slinging it about as a derogatory term.

    The only property that some anarchists are against is private ownership of the means of production. Not the products themselves mind you.

    Nothing to see here, folks. Judge, Jury, & Executioner Travelha hath spoken.

  51. travelah

    Anarchists trashed downtown Asheville and I don’t think the “forum club” is going to change that perception with their anarchy apologetics e.g. lets not tar all the “good anarchists” that love Asheville and peace, love and understanding.

  52. tatuaje

    A christian killed an abortion doctor in cold blood not too long ago.

    I don’t think you’re going to change that perception with their christian apologetics e.g. lets not tar all the “good christians” that love the earth and peace, love and understanding.

    See how silly of a thing that is to say?

  53. How bizarre. I am certainly curious to know what could possibly motivate such a large group of young adults to plan, travel to and conduct such pointless mayhem. If they have a point I sure hope they are willing to share it, otherwise the whole thing is even more pointless.

    This looks like very cultish group behavior where common sense and dealing with life’s complexities is overriden by some rigid ideology.

    Or maybe they are all just mad at the world and some nefarious person harnessed that rage to a specific release.

  54. Killarue

    Maybe, they are the Chai Tea Party;) but why are so many quick to condemn their beliefs. Certainly, their acts were pitifully malicious; however, no one was injured and it seems that they had their targets. How do you expect the younger generation to act given such admirable role models that we have i.e. the majority of politicians, left and right. Stop falling for the polarization of “We the People”!

  55. Well, as that link Tim posted indicates, this sort of thing happened last year as well. Maybe its simply some sort of tradition emerging?
    None of the anarchists I know were involved in this, and I know a good number of the local anarchists.

  56. entopticon

    “A christian killed an abortion doctor in cold blood not too long ago.

    I don’t think you’re going to change that perception with their christian apologetics e.g. lets not tar all the “good christians” that love the earth and peace, love and understanding.

    See how silly of a thing that is to say?”

    Well put tatuaje.

  57. shadmarsh

    What’s pathetic is Tim and Trav’s attempts to use this as a smear against “the libruls.”

  58. Thanks for making this thread about me. I am much more interesting that violent, angry leftist criminals.
    …………………….

  59. “Whatever coward.”

    Is there a magic decoder ring that goes with this comment?
    ………………………….

  60. shadmarsh

    If you ever say something that can be described as such I will respond in kind.

  61. entopticon

    Those kids are the unconscionable products of ignorance and privilege. In my years involved in anarchist politics, sanctimonious little pricks that shoot from the hip were all too common, but of course there are also some brilliant, socially responsible anarchists and anarcho-syndicalists, such as Noam Chomsky, who was famously called the smartest man in the world.

    Apparently Tim is completely unaware of the fact that many anarchist schools of thought have more in common with libertarianism than leftist approaches.

    I think those little jerks should suffer very serious consequences, but traveliar’s draconian suggestion of ten years hard time is just plain asinine. And traveliar has the nerve to call himself a Christian! Amazing. It is hard to think of a more thoroughly un-Christian thing to say.

    For a little perspective, the white supremacist hate groups that have been involved on the periphery of the teabagger movement are involved with things a whole hell of a lot more sinister than the idiotic vandalism of those annoying little dipsticks. The idiotic anarchist kids didn’t abduct a black teenager and burn him alive in the woods after dragging him around from the back of a pickup truck. They smashed windows.

  62. entopticon

    One of the funniest things about this is that traveliar and Tim seem to be completely unaware of the fact that most anarchists refer to “liberals” with absolute disdain. As a rule of thumb, anarchists absolutely despise liberalism.

  63. I guess these self-righteous anti-capitalitsts used the internet, their iPhones, their Blackberries and email accounts, and drove their privately-owned gas-powered vehicles to Asheville to launch their protest against capitalism. If they were worth a pint-full of dog scoop they would have walked naked to Asheville naked through the woods with no knowledge of plans beyond what could be communicated with smoke signals only to find that no one gave a shat.
    ……………………

  64. Oh the irony is so so deep for you isn’t it Mr. Peck. I still wonder why this group really did it. Do you have an inside source to this group’s thinking and reasons? I would imagine it is just as non-sensical as the Tea Party’s platform to save America.

  65. JWTJr

    piffy – are these some of your oppressed artist buddies? Aren’t they just expressing their creativity?

  66. Piffy!

    [b]It seems like a leap to call them “protesters” when we have yet to hear a cogent statement explaining their action[/b]

    thanks for that, although do we know they were angry? I think naive gang of privileged college brats would have been very accurate.

    Someone needs to teach them how to make soup and do the dishes. Maybe help a working mom clean the bathroom. THAT’s anarchy, not smashing shit because you’re mad at your parents.

  67. Piffy!

    [b]One of the funniest things about this is that traveliar and Tim seem to be completely unaware of the fact that most anarchists refer to “liberals” with absolute disdain. As a rule of thumb, anarchists absolutely despise liberalism.[/b]

    Well, that would require an understanding of politics, instead of calling yourself a conservative because you are still mad at jimmy carter and the cool boys in high school who stole all the girls.

  68. Jason Ross Martin

    Tim,

    This issue has NOTHING to do with who is a liberal or conservative. I wish you success in rising up in the fledgling tea party so your political future will be doomed by such posts as the ones you’ve made here. To use these pitiful events as a way to criticize a group with which you disagree, with no proof or evidence whatsoever of your claims, basically sums up the entire tea party movement which you advocate.

  69. Sage

    Unlike the moonbats that dominate ACT comments I would like to think that MX posters could think more clearly.

    These juveniles don’t represent all leftists anymore than vandals on the right do. For conservatives to say that these actions represent all liberals in Asheville is doing the exact same they accuse the left of in regards to them.

    Gross generalization.

    There needs to be some perspective too. While the damage is inexcusable it was still petty vandalism. The ACT should stop hyping it. The battle of Seattle it ain’t.

    Bunch of kids and young adults who thought it was “cool” to tear stuff up.

    This isolated incident does reflect daily life downtown and these idiots don’t represent the liberal or alternative segment of Asheville’s population.

    They represent themselves. Morons.

  70. chops

    What’s the difference between an Anarchist and a Tea Bagger? Seriously, is there a difference?

    My understanding is that they both want no government enforced authority (except violence). They both want absolute liberty, and no responsibility.

  71. “My understanding is that they both want no government enforced authority”

    Then your understanding is incorrect.

    The Asheville Tea Party is an independent, local, voluntary, nonpartisan, grassroots political activist organization that stands for individual rights, limited government, fiscal responsibility and free markets; and was created by individual concerned citizens in response to the out-of-control growth of government power, scope, arrogance, recklessness and corruption.

    We stand for restoring the supremacy of individual rights in American society; for re-establishing an objective rule of law under a constitutionally-limited and accountable government; for fiscal responsibility that does not privatize profits and socialize losses. We stand for the full realization of an economy that is free from political interference and political controls. And we stand for tax relief for private individuals, business-people and entrepreneurs who involuntarily provide boundless resources to an unlimited and corrupted government.

    http://ashevilleteaparty.wordpress.com/
    ………………………………..

  72. chops

    “out-of-control growth of government power” sounds like something an anarchist would say.

  73. chops

    So what would be an example of a social program that a Tea Bagger would support? I mean something that actually improves the quality of life for the people. Not security, quality.

  74. Erika Franzi

    @chops

    Are you serious? “Out of control growth of government power” is something any number of people might say. It doesn’t make us one and the same.

    There is no relationship between Tea Party principles and anarchy. We want LIMITED government, constrained by the Constitution. Anarchists want no government at all.

    To conflate the two is to lack a basic understanding of the role of government and the definitions of the terms you are using. Not to mention an abuse of logic.

  75. Sage

    No doubt witnessing the events must have been frightening. I can imagine new residents of the luxury condos in the vicinity asking: Dear, is this what the brochure and website meant by live in the heart of Asheville and experience the “eclectic street life”!

  76. Sage

    And it was not too long that a luxury real estate office in the area had it’s windows smashed in? Think it was supposed to be a revolt against overdevelopment?

  77. tatuaje

    My understanding is that they both want no government enforced authority (except violence). They both want absolute liberty, and no responsibility.

    The ‘except violence’ part is confusing. Anarchism isn’t a violent ideology, per se. The image of the bomb throwing, mustache twirling anarchist came from the Haymarket affair (how apropos) and doesn’t truly jibe with 99% of actual anarchists that I’ve met.

    Absolute liberty, sure. Anarchists believe that no one has the right to oppress any other, whether it be physically, emotionally, spiritually, etc. This does not mean that anyone can do whatever they want at any time (a common misconception of anarchism). There can be rules and such, as long as they are decided by consensus and are upheld by each individual.

    But no responsibility? That’s actually the polar OPPOSITE of anarchism, which is fundamentally rooted in each individual taking TOTAL responsibility for his/her actions. No oppression, no gods, and no masters in no way equates to ‘no responsibility.’

  78. wareagle82

    What’s the difference between an Anarchist and a Tea Bagger? Seriously, is there a difference?

    ——

    yes, there is a difference and it’s a bit embarrasing to have to explain it to you, particularly since you give yourself away by your pejorative reference to tea partiers. By the way, what’s it like being a teabaggee?

    That aside, the tea party folks are for LIMITED govt, the type outlined in that quaint document known as the Constitution. They find fault with both parties, though probably more with Dems as that tends to be the party of bigger govt, whereas Repubs of late have been the party of big govt.

    Anarchists would prefer no govt, a stance no tea party person would take. Govt and a system of laws are a requirement for liberty to occur. You are entirely wrong regarding tea party sentiment on responsibility. Responsibility is a cornerstone of a Constitution-based stance. Perhaps instead of taking little cheap shots at those who disagree with you, you ought to try seeing what their point of view is and then decide if it makes sense for you.

  79. tatuaje

    And I would hope that it would go without saying that my above description of anarchism is so brief as to be almost comical.

    I suggest people read up on the subject because there seems to be MANY misconceptions, as evidenced by this thread and others, about what, exactly, anarchism is. From Rousseau to William Godwin to Peter Kropotkin to Emma Goldman to Howard Zinn to Noam Chomsky, and so many before between and after, there are many different luminaries that can expound on the subject much better than I can here.

  80. JWTJr

    Comparing Anarchists and The Tea Party movement is ridiculous partisanship.

    Chops … you don’t like the taste of their tea bags?

  81. chops

    Ahh, I see.
    The Anarchists want responsibility. The Tea Baggers do not.

  82. wareagle82

    The Anarchists want responsibility. The Tea Baggers do not.

    no chops, you do not see but the blind seldom do. Chime in when you get a clue as to what the tea party folks are all about. Hint: it’s about limited govt, regardless of which party is running it.

  83. Mr. Chops does not understand either libertarianism or anarchism.

    Libertarians are pro-government: limited government. That is, a government that is limited to the protection of individual right, necessitating law enforcement, courts and military.
    …………………..

  84. chops

    Just goofin’ there, timpeck. I understand.

    But, you know, from a far-left perspective such as my own, you guys look the same.

    So if you add organized security (cops, courts, military) to Anarchy, that would appeal to you?

    Seems depressing that you would not prefer a system that prioritizes things that improve people’s quality of life.

  85. Chops, you seem to be laboring under the assumption that the government _can_ improve “The People’s” quality of life on a significant, net basis. I have not seen sufficient evidence to warrant that assumption.

  86. “So if you add organized security (cops, courts, military) to Anarchy, that would appeal to you?”

    Anarchy = no government.

    Cops, courts and military = government.

    Mutually exclusive.
    ……………………..

  87. Sage

    It’s a shame that instead engaging in acts of mindless stupidity they could have done a peaceful protest march. Or a vigil or some creative hybrid advocating for better conditions for workers.

    Would have garnered plenty of support from passersby in downtown. Seeing as how barely a month goes by without one leftwing group or more demonstrating in Pritchard Park. But I guess such an option was not “radical” enough.

  88. entopticon

    Tim, you are relying on a cartoon caricature of anarchism. Anarchy DOES NOT = no government, except for kids with spray-painted A’s on their Fred Perry t-shirts at punk shows back in the early 1980’s. It is a common misconception held by popular media, with little basis in reality. Every major school of anarchism has governmental organization. Like libertarianism, anarchy advocates limited, and in most cases decentralized government.

    LIBERTARIANISM WAS LITERALLY CREATED BY ANARCHISTS!

    That is not a matter of opinion; it is a simple historical fact. The first person to describe himself as a “libertarian” in a political sense was Joseph Déjacque, a French Anarchist. It comes from the French word “libertaire” and was used to get around the French ban on “anarchism.” Libertarianism and anarchism have frequently been interchangeable from the start because of their shared history. Limited government and an emphasis on individual liberty are the paradigmatic foundation that both movements grew out of.

    In fact, many of the most prominent anarchists in history have considered themselves to be libertarians, and vice versa. Considered by some to be the most influential contemporary anarchist, now deceased Murray Bookchin, a former friend and teacher, preferred the terms “libertarian socialism” and “libertarian municipalism” to anarchism.

    As Noam Chomsky, a self-described libertarian socialist and anarchosyndicalist once stated, a consistent libertarian “must oppose private ownership of the means of production and the wage slavery which is a component of this system, as incompatible with the principle that labor must be freely undertaken and under the control of the producer.”

    There are certainly differing philosophical and sociopolitical views between some anarchists and some libertarians, and some anarchists and other anarchists, and some libertarians and other libertarians, but their is absolutely no question that their history is intricately intertwined and the share several core beliefs.

  89. chops

    Yeah, so like I was saying, a government that solely consists of cops, courts and military (what I call “organized security”) — that sounds good to you?

  90. tatuaje

    Well put, entop.

    I hope if nothing else comes from this that at least some people will make the effort to educate themselves on certain topics instead of confusing stereotypes and cliches and assumptions as knowledge.

  91. “a government that solely consists of cops, courts and military (what I call “organized security”)—that sounds good to you?”

    The only proper role for government is the protection of individual rights. As well-stated in the Declaration of Independence.

    The Nature of Government
    http://is.gd/bPW90
    …………………….

  92. entopticon

    “Didn’t we just find out what anarchy equals?”

    So then by your own logic, every time white supremacist organizations wave flags and disperse their recruiting literature at tea parties, or every time there is yet another tea party supporter who posts on Stormfront (adamantly pro teabagger white supremacist hate site), or every time teabaggers wave racist signs of Obama as a monkey or an Islamic terrorist etc, we find out what tea party libertarianism equals?!? That’s some argument Tim.

  93. entopticon

    How about this Tim, I will give you that a disturbingly high percentage of both teabaggers and anarchists are stereotypical cliches of their movements who are motivated more by ignorance and anger than genuine concern for humanity.

  94. entopticon

    You know a lot of anarchists Tim? Or are you basing your notion of what typical and atypical anarchists are on your imaginings? Actually, to be honest, it is pretty obvious that it is the latter. Most of the anarchists that I have been close to over the years have been remarkably intelligent and well read. A number of them are now University professors.

    Conversely, most of the teabaggers that I have encountered are remarkably clueless, and motivated more by greed and bigotry than anything else. The prominent figures that I see in the movement are imbecilic nimrods like Tom Tancredo and Sarah Palin. If the tea party has some intellectual equivalent of Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, and Murray Bookchin, they certainly are being kept a secret.

    You didn’t even seem to know that libertarianism was literally born out of anarchism, and therefore has a great deal of historical overlap, so it is hard to give much credit to your take on the matter.

  95. Libertarianism is born of the classical liberal tradition of the European Western Enlightenment. It used to be called Liberalism. It is a tradition developed and articulated in modern times by the likes of Ludwig von Mises, Murray Rothbard and Ayn Rand.

    As for intelligence, let’s interview your representatives when they are released from jail to settle that question. But then it might have to be a jailhouse interview.
    …………………….

  96. entopticon

    Again, “libertarianism” came from the French “libertaire,” and it was coined by Joseph Déjacque, an anarchist.

    My “representatives”? In jail? What the hell are you talking about? I have no representatives, and they certainly aren’t in jail. I am not an anarchist, and I think that what those idiotic kids did was absolutelyu detestable. Are the pro-teaparty white supremacist hate orgs YOUR “representatives”?

    As for intelligence and history, you are starting to embarrass yourself. Murray Rothbard was a proud anarchist!!!!!!! He literally coined the term anarcho-capitalism!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Rothbard

    Murray Rothbard had some very twisted notions as a matter of fact. Here’s a quote from the SPLC’s Chip Berlet on an infamous Rothbard essay, Origins of the Welfare State in America:

    “Rothbard blamed much of what he disliked on meddling women. In the mid-1800s, a “legion of Yankee women” who were “not fettered by the responsibilities” of household work “imposed” voting rights for women on the nation. Later, Jewish women, after raising funds from “top Jewish financiers”, agitated for child labor laws, Rothbard adds with evident disgust. The “dominant tradition” of all these activist women, he suggests, is lesbianism.”

    It is an incontrovertible fact that the Ludwig von Mises organization has numerous direct ties, including its top leaders, to registered white supremacist hate groups. Not exactly something that I would want to be represented by.

    And really, anyone who takes Ayn Rand’s silly drivel seriously needs to have their head examined.

  97. Piffy!

    Can one of these alleged moderators explain to me what constructive purpose tim adds with his off topic promotion of his little tea club or the benefit of trav s absurd name calling? I mean in addition to the obvious lack of understanding of the massive difference between a liberal and a so called anarchist both of these individuals have actually attempted to turn this into a stupid left right debate to further their own unrelated set issues.

  98. shadmarsh

    Sounds perfectly plausible to me. It fits the profile of the violent, angry Left.

    Do you have a better explanation?

    –timpeck,from this very thread

  99. Sage

    Thank you pff. I am so sick of these annoyingly esoteric and arcane hijackings of current news topics.

    If this was a story about the debate between the two schools of thought that would be one thing but it is not.

    The Tea Party has nothing to do with this or their foils on the other side.

    Get offline for once and get coffee or tea and battle it out in person. Although I doubt any of you could agree on the beverage without arguing about whether coffee or tea is anarchic or libertarian.

  100. Betty Cloer Wallace

    Sounds perfectly plausible to me. It fits the profile of the violent, angry Left. Do you have a better explanation? —timpeck (from this very thread)

    Yes. These vandals are neither leftists, nor kids, nor anarchists, nor libertarians, nor libertarian anarchists, nor protesters of any discernible cause.

    They are merely hoodlums, vandals, thugs, and DOMESTIC TERRORISTS.

  101. entopticon

    wareagle82 (Cullen) said:
    “Anarchists would prefer no govt”

    Sorry Cullen, but that is just nonsense. Just like the teabagger libertarians, every major school of anarchist thought advocates limited government. The twerps that bashed up the Grove Arcade may or may not know that, but that has no bearing on the verity of that fact.

    It seems that the kids who did this thought it would be fashionable and fun to put on some bandannas and backpacks full of hammers to play WTO protester and bust up stuff that they associate rich people, but they didn’t even have the continuity of reason to go after a large chain (no that that would have been ok either).

  102. pff

    just as i thought, there is litle to no moderation of these threads.

  103. entopticon

    Well Johnny Lemuria, since the most prominent anarchist schools of thought, such as anarcho-syndicalism and libertarian municipalism advocate decentralized democracy, perhaps you could name a major school of anarchy that does not involve limited government. Apparently you think anarchy is a Sex Pistols song. I spent years involved in anarchist politics, and I have never heard of a legitimate anarchist school of thought that did not advocate some form of limited, usually decentralized government.

  104. Piffy!

    can someone explain to timpecked that murray rothbard considered himself an anarchist?

    (albeit “Anarcho-capitalism”, but an anarchist nonetheless. One wonders if tim has ever actually studied any politics beyond ayn rand)

    oh, i see you did entop, thanks!

  105. Entopticon, that definition abuses the term government beyond all recognition. Monopoly + hierarchy= government. While it true that the day-to-day decision making of an anarchist union or co-op may be handled democratically (although consensus would be more likely), to conflate that with saying that there would be a decentralized Democracy is absurd.

  106. entopticon

    Johnny Lemuria, if you are going to call yourself an anarchist, you should probably try reading at least one actual book about it. Murray Bookchin, widely considered to be the most influential anarchist in recent decades was a friend of mine, and I certainly spent many hours with him, along with many other prominent anarchists, discussing what decentralized governmental structures might look like in an anarchist framework. The social ecologists such as Bookchin (another school of anarchist thought) for example, were particularly interested in the decentralized model of New England town halls. Bookchin’s famous The Rise of Urbanization and the Decline of Citizenship showed his deep belief in decentralized democracy. Anarcho-syndicalists such as Chomsky called for much more of a role for non-state-based, decentralized government. Some anarcho-communists even called for a comparatively extensive role for government. The anthropologists Stanley Diamond (In Search of the Primitive), Pierre Clastres (Society Against the State), and Dan Chodorkoff (reconstructionist anthropology) were particularly influential on the role of decentralization. Frankly, to be an anarchist, and to be completely unaware of the vast texts on the importance of decentralized government is a bit bizarre. Anti-statist does not mean without decentralized government. Unless you are a teenager just wanting to break stuff, which you are not, you should know better.

  107. entopticon

    That is not surprising Johnny. Bookchin actually had sympathy for right-wing libertarianism, but he had an almost obsessive hatred of what he called “lifestyle anarchists,” which seems to be closer to what you subscribe to. He actually wrote a book about it, called Social Anarchism or Lifestyle Anarchism: An Unbridgeable Chasm
    http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/bookchin/soclife.html

    I actually didn’t always agree with Murray, and I think some of his criticisms of lifestyle anarchists were unfair, or at least unproductive. He subscribed to a a theory called cheap unity, which held that unity based on compromise always leads to corruption of ideals. I see things differently.

    Please, discount away. We disagree, and that is fine with me. I think history and the facts are heavily weighed in favor of my position, but I don’t expect to convince you. Certainly the most publicly recognized anarchist figures, such as Chomsky and Zinn, are extensively on record speaking about their belief in the role of decentralized government, but lifestyle anarchists such as Bob Black may see things differently.

  108. Anarchists are but hand maidens to an even more oppressive style of government.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY#t=3m45s

    The entire video is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY

    I view anarchist and libertarian thought as a poison and the fruit of that thought is the destruction of private or public property and the ultimate loss of the freedom they claim to pursue.

    IF you are interested in exploring these evil (as in the absence of moral good) philosophies, try this page http://flag.blackened.net/ it has a wealth of links to the many flavors of anarchist and libertarian poisons.

  109. 1. As a pro-government libertarian, who believes that the government’s only proper role is the protection of individual rights, I fail to see any threat to private property on the horizon. (Yet another specious claim from the failed neocons.)

    2. I guess I’ll be the one to say it: The Asheville Citizen-Times was right.
    …………………..

  110. shadmarsh

    I view anarchist and libertarian thought as a poison and the fruit of that thought is the destruction of private or public property and the ultimate loss of the freedom they claim to pursue.

    Hear, hear!

  111. pff

    not all anarchists support these notions of property damage. some just make soup for their neighbors.

  112. I would just like to say that it upsets me a lot what they did to our downtown area, and I am glad that they got caught. However, I’ve done criminal record checks on two of the people that live here in NC and they had no criminal record prior to this. I think these people got excited and made some very poor decisions this one night and now they are paying for it big time. Fortunately for me as a bondsman, I’m one of the people getting paid!

  113. cwaster

    I think the whole thing is atrocious, yes. And those responsible should be held accountable and punished accordingly as well as paying for the damages.

    However- let’s make sure that we have the right folks before we go slinging accusations and such. Innocent until proven guilty is a basic tenet of American justice that we would all do well to remember.

  114. Killarue

    Actually, I enjoyed reading this thread, although the name calling is distracting. I only wanted to respond to the mention of Ayn Rand as a leader in philosophical/political thought, Really! You do realize that it was a novel i.e. fiction. Can anyone tell me where this mythical free market world exists!? I, for one, am not willing to put my life, family, community, etc in the hands of entities whose sole purpose is to make money at any cost. History teaches us that all too often!

  115. Piffy!

    [b]Anarchists are but hand maidens to an even more oppressive style of government.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY#t=3m45s%5B/b%5D

    The “information” in that video is nonsensical at best, and highly inaccurate by any reasonable measure. Pitifully so, actually. “Anarchists” were not responsible for the Russian Revolution, or for Castro’s take over of Cuba from Foreign forces. Seriously, if you believe the nonsense in that video, you may want to actually READ a history book..

    No wonder you despise Liberty.

  116. Tiger Lily

    We don’t know if they were “angry” either, nor that they were a “mob”.

    The music on the video is pretty ridiculous, too.

    I suggest that your reporting needn’t be colorful at all, and to avoid descriptions not based in fact.

    “Downtown windows smashed by unknown group” would have been a more accurate headline for a start.

  117. Jake

    The court reporting from the trials of the young adults who damaged the property will be very interesting. I sincerely doubt that any of them will be willing to be an Anarchist Firebrand once they are sworn in before a judge.

    Disenfrachized youth revolt is nothing new. Mix in a few beers, and it is very easy to see essentially random property damage facilitated by the loss of individual responsibility found in the mob mentality.

    I feel very sorry for the people who have had their property damaged. As for the perpetrators, a felony record might cause them to better educate their children when that day comes.

  118. Piffy!

    Great link, Betty, you pagan, you.

    Jake, we really have no idea who the perpetrators are. We only know they arrested a handful of folks after the fact. No evidence has come forward that pins the arrested to
    the crimes. Considering the APD has very little evidence, and many of the accused seem intelligent enough to not say anything, I suspect that most of them will be let off with no charges.

    And since there was no political reasons given for the valndalization, for all we know they were frat girls dressed up for a prank.

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