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0 thoughts on “Protests

  1. john

    I used to advertise in this rag regularly, but your offensive cartoons and political stance drove me out.

  2. Dionysis

    “Boy, you progressives are really scared.”

    Hardly. You’re mistaking derision and mirth for fear.

  3. Michael Muller

    Lighten up, Tim. The cartoon is hilarious. The only thing that’s missing are tri-cornered hats and knee stockings.

    Despite the chronic malcontents and assorted whack jobs that show up to any given Tea Party event, I suspect most of the people are pretty ordinary (this being a relative term).


  4. “Hardly. You’re mistaking derision and mirth for fear.”

    No, I don’t think so. Two cartoons in a row? And this one implying that I’m a dumb redneck?

    You’re scared.

  5. Hass

    Why does Molton have to be so insulting? Is it personal? Do you think that people have to be stupid, fat and toothless to disagree with the Obama administration? Now who is mean spirited? I think the liberals do not know any other way, because like children, name calling and bad drawings are their way of making their point.

  6. Dionysis

    “And this one implying that I’m a dumb redneck?”

    Really? Which one of is supposed to be you? The one whining about being called names?

    A handful of flakes wouldn’t scare one of those toddlers holding up a sign saying “I’m over-taxed” photographed at your tea-bagging party.

    But believe what you wish, if it makes you feel better. Who cares?

  7. Dionysis

    “Why does Molton have to be so insulting? Is it personal? Do you think that people have to be stupid, fat and toothless to disagree with the Obama administration? Now who is mean spirited? I think the liberals do not know any other way, because like children, name calling and bad drawings are their way of making their point.”

    You do raise valid points, and it is clear that one need not be a toothless buffoon to oppose Obama’s policies.

    However, in truth, if you look at the photos of attendees at this last tea-bagger gathering (such as those published in the AC-T), these cartoon depictions aren’t too far off the mark. Now, that doesn’t mean these images are a fair representation of all attendees, but it does kind of mirror some of them.

  8. Michael Muller

    I especially like the guy with the Uncle Sam hat looking the other way and saying to “put big government back in the bedroom where it belongs.”

    I know him by name.

  9. drron407

    It always amazes me how one newspaper can portray those with whom they disagree so disdainfully. Yet, when the show is on the other foot, they are the first to cry “FOUL” and berate those whose Constitutional rights were simply being exercised.

    Ron Kauffman
    Conservative Activist
    Apparently also a “redneck”

  10. JohnB

    I thought dissent was patriotic. I guess that’s the case only when leftists protest.

    “Free speech for me but not for thee.” Hypocrites.

  11. h.r. 1207

    Man, it really is sad how the Mountain Xpress missed the mark again. Isn’t this the same publication that claimed that Matt Mittan spoke at the event?

    It is unfortunate that some republicans have only recently come to disagree with the Bush/Obama policies but still most lefties fail to recognize that BOTH political parties were bashed at the event and that the TEA Party movement actually sprang out of Bush policy protest back in 2007.

    Also, I attended and spoke at the event. I also wore a neck tie. Where is my picture?

  12. Michael Muller

    “It is the ability to take a joke, not make one, that proves you have a sense of humor.” — Max Eastman

  13. Dionysis

    “I thought dissent was patriotic. I guess that’s the case only when leftists protest.”

    Are you claiming that the teabaggers were prevented from having their gathering? Was anyone forbidden from speaking?

    It appears that they’ve had two such events already without any interference, and evidently another one is planned.

    Having others who disagree with them express their own views, whether via a cartoon or words, hasn’t stopped one teabagger from anything.

    Expressing one’s opinion, whether as dissent or anything else, is the First Amendment in action. There is no guarantee that anyone has to agree with what was said; as far as that goes, freedom of expression, including dissent, doesn’t guarantee an audience either.

  14. Raoul Vega

    Saul Alinsky Rule 5: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It’s hard to counterattack ridicule, and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage. Forget these latte liberals and their local Crumb-wannabe. His stuff look like junior high level art. Folks at the Tea Parties probably remind them of their family members who didn’t “understand” them when they were growing up, yet paid their way. Dependency breeds contempt. Instead, check out the work of Erin Bonsteel and Michael Ramirez for some real wit and talent. AND stop caring about what anyone says in The MountainDepress, at least until after 2010!

  15. chops


    I don’t think you understand; this newspaper doesn’t “disagree” with these buffoons – Xpress is merely honest enough to make light of the silly premise of this protest.

    Let’s me-and-you be honest. The demographic here are the same people that typically vote conservative. This usually means that they vote against their own interests — to be taxed MORE!


    Unless I am inaccurately gaging this crowd, it seems the majority here have income below $250k. Would you agree?

    The irony coming from this “love it or leave it” crowd is overwhelming. I mean, really. Conservatives are also the ones who typically support the Military Industrial Complex, an infrastructure that has increased our government spending more than any other budgetary component.

    The tea party protests are worthy of ridicule solely due to the demographic makeup of the participants. I am generalizing, here – I mean, I understand that there are some liberals at these protests, too.

  16. “Man, it really is sad how the Mountain Xpress missed the mark again.”

    You have to understand, to them, if you smear your opponents with oh-so funny and derisive comic book caricatures and simply declare them to be “stupid,” then you don’t have to formulate a valid counter-argument.

    This cartoon, and their other empty barbs, fulfills, so they hope, the function of relieving them of the difficult task of thinking.

    Rest easy, my friends, rest easy.

  17. shadmarsh

    So did Postelle accuse you of having a sense of humor a few weeks back, and is that why you called him a liar?

  18. Anonymous coward writes: “is that why you called him a liar?”

    He know why I called him a liar. That’s good enough for me, kid.

  19. shadmarsh

    How am I anonymous? This is my name.

    (ps you just keep proving my point about the lack of a sense of humor).

  20. “(ps you just keep proving my point about the lack of a sense of humor).”

    Really? Does that claim advance your mythical argument?

    Is all of Asheville made up of children?

  21. shadmarsh

    No, your ceaseless blathering, bellyaching and inferiority complex does that…and you never answered my question about how am I an anonymous coward.

    As to your second question, I am assuming that is rhetorical, but the census is due in the spring, so you should have your answer to that then.

  22. Piffy!

    im starting to feel sorry for timpecked.

    I never knew williard/cullen advertised with you guys regularly.

  23. Ken Hanke

    This cartoon, and their other empty barbs, fulfills, so they hope, the function of relieving them of the difficult task of thinking.

    But you have no qualms whatever about using the website that the Xpress provides, maintains and pays for — a situation that could be construed as not merely hypocritical, but at odds with your apparent beliefs.

  24. Ken Hanke

    I never knew williard/cullen advertised with you guys regularly

    Yes, well, statements about how one used to advertise with someone — yet neglect to include the name of the advertiser — are somehow lacking in impact.

  25. Bluestar Mom

    Well, I guess Mountain Express can only ignore the TEA parties for so long as they are occurring regularly across our Nation. Only 43% of Americans pay taxes, which explains why Obama won by 52%. If you are busy beating on drums, twisting your hair in dread locks and smoking pot, chances are you aren’t working enough to pay taxes, and therefore should have no RIGHT to vote, and you don’t understand how our country is moving down the road to socialism!

  26. Piffy!

    I’m tickled by all the folks throwing out the broad generalizations in regards to anyone who criticizes or even, *Gasp*, pokes fun at, the Tea Baggers.

    If you guys are interested in spreading your message and gaining public support, maybe you should learn to convey your platform a little better? Or is your main intention to complain and whine?

  27. Michael Muller

    Bluestar Mom: people who don’t pay taxes shouldn’t have the right to vote?

  28. entopticon

    Tim said: “Two cartoons in a row? And this one implying that I’m a dumb redneck?”

    So which caricature is you Tim? The “taxt enuff alreddy” guy or the “put big gov’t back in the bedroom where it belongs” guy? Are you sure you aren’t just being paranoid? You know, kind of like the whole Marxist conspiracy theory thing?

  29. Michael Muller

    Tim is neither a poor speller or a theocrat. In fact, he’s a clear and consistent voice against big-government intrusion into our private lives. In fact, he’s one of the smartest people I know.

    His point is that the cartoon depicts Tea Party supporters as all a bunch of imbeciles and rednecks. They aren’t. Only some are.

    Of course, the cartoon wouldn’t be nearly as funny otherwise.


  30. Piffy!

    I keep hearing about how incorrectly all these tea baggers are characterized here, but i have yet to see, hear, read, or experience first hand, anything other than ignorant rednecks inarticulately repeating lies they’ve heard on fox “news”.

    So, please, where are the rest of these non-partisan, intelligent, anti-big-government folks i keep hearing rumors of? I have yet to come across any yet, and ive been to two “tea parties”.

  31. wahoo mcdaniel

    Well, lots of sniping and name calling going on here, isn’t there? Yes, there is. So, here goes: I am a Libertarian, have been for some time, registered ‘unaffiliated’ and not whoring myself for either side. The comments about the military complex are somewhar accurate: the defense of 300,000,000 people is expensive. The alternative is learning to speak another language at gunpoint. Still the defense budget is full of lard, true. The vast majority of TEA Party attendees (I was one) are just tired of fat, bloated government and wasted tax dollars. Example?
    North Carolina’s budget? Crafted in secret, behind closed doors, with out ANY Republicans allowed in on the process: None. Single party government means socialism to me, as I hate big government. On the national level, remember when C-Span broadcast endless hours of debate and bickering about Bills that might become law? Well, that is a thing of the past. As of the opening of the Democrat controlled Congress in 2007 all bills are debated behind closed doors, then sent out for an up or down vote. Even the Procedurals are done this way. The cartoon referenced here just proves one thing to this Libertarian: you folks to the left of the spectrum will take any amount of crap from your elected “betters” and be referred to by leftist political hacks like Chas Schumer, D-NY, as the “chattering class” if you speak up.
    Seems like the condescension, snideness and acceptance of opacity in government is on the Left now where as it used to be on the Right.
    Frankly, as one who trusts neither side, I think you should put aside the ignorant and only marginally funny cartoons and start watching how the government at every level is wasting your money and doing bad things…in Your name, and using Your tax dollars.
    Or does defaming these mostly honest TEA party folks matter more than asking why Obama can say “we’ll have to tighten our belts” and then have a 2000 person Luau on the federal dime? He’s President not the King, for goodness sake.
    Wake up and demand accountability from the lazy slugs we’ve allowed to pollute public service or be willing to face the bad consequences.
    Oh, about the military being the largest cost in the budget? The pork filled spending nightmare of the Stimulus tops 1.5 Trillion in one year, nearly four times the defense budget. Both need public oversight and thinning.
    That’s my take on this nonsense.

  32. John

    “repeating lies they’ve heard on fox “news”.”

    Such a case of derangement syndrome needs treatment. Hours of Matthews and Olberman isn’t the answer.

  33. Bluestar MOM

    In response to Michael, “People who don’t pay taxes..”
    Our Founding Fathers initially said that only those who own land and pay taxes should have the right to vote. I think we could all see a problem with this in that neither Afro-Americans nor women were allowed to own land. But, their point was that that if you do not have a vested interest in who runs your gov’t and spends OUR (tax payor) money then you shouldn’t vote. When the number of people who don’t pay taxes exceeds those who do, there is an inherent problem.
    The solution is a flat tax, or consumption tax! Maybe Charlie Rangel and Tim Geithner and the other four Obama nominees could figure out how to pay thier share, while they keep raising ours!

  34. entopticon

    Where on Earth did that ridiculous, patently untrue, and frankly absurd notion that 43% of Americans don’t pay taxes come from?

    And “Afro-Americans”?!? Seriously, what century are you living in?

  35. shadmarsh

    This century, just in another reality; where pigs fly and Libruls are responsible for all the worlds problems.

  36. Ken Hanke

    could figure out how to pay thier share, while they keep raising ours!

    So you make over $250,000 a year, huh?

  37. Bluestar Mom

    That figure of 43% of Americans that don’t pay taxes comes from the IRS itself.
    The term Afro-American is how a lot of black people refer to themselves, the term is used to describe a “race” of people on census reports and the affirmative action sections on job applications.

  38. Bluestar Mom

    Ken Hanke: No, I only make 60K$. But, how much does the person who employees you make? My fear in raising taxes on the “rich”, who employee a lot of people, is that these employers will eliminate jobs. We can’t pay for the stimulus bill, Cap and Trade and Nationalized Healthcare (and growing trillion dollar deficit) by just taxing the rich, it is fiscally impossible. There aren’t enough rich people! Believe me all of our taxes will go up!
    How’s your Chinese?

  39. entopticon

    Sorry Bluestar mom, but here is a report from the nonpartisan fact checking organization, which irrefutably dispels your fallacious claim:

    As a matter of fact, as the fact checking report shows:

    “The Congressional Budget Office found that earners in the lowest quintile, where most of those with no income tax liability fall, shouldered 4.3 percent of the payroll tax burden in 2005 and 11.1 percent of the excise taxes. Their effective tax rate (which is calculated by dividing taxes paid by total income) in those categories, according to the CBO, was in fact significantly higher than the rate of the top quintile, although that top one-fifth of the population had a much higher effective tax rate for individual and corporate income taxes.”

    That means that the people who you are claiming don’t pay taxes actually pay a higher percentage of their income in federal taxes than the highest bracket. And that doesn’t even include things like state and sales tax.

    As you see, your claim that 43% of Americans don’t pay taxes is nothing more than the demonstrably false rhetoric of the far right, and I have proven my case.

    As for your response to Ken, you completely missed his point. You claimed that that your taxes were raised by Obama. Unless you make over $250k a year that is just not true.

    And as for your “Afro American” comment, I know you are on the extreme right and all, but are you seriously that outlandishly anachronistic? That hasn’t been the preferred term for half of a century.

  40. John

    Used to be that during a tax conversation, that income tax was the topic of discussion. 43% of Americans don’t pay federal income tax.

    Payroll taxes are different and everyone who works pays them.

    The ‘everyone’ term will now be expanded just like the tax term has to inlcude those who pay for energy, tobacco, soft drinks and fast food. Also, you will see your income tax bill increase when the new health care bill taxes the employee portion of employer funded health insurance.

    More regressive tax structures from the left. The lottery is still the king of that category, but I’m sure they are striving to beat it.

  41. Ken Hanke

    As for your response to Ken, you completely missed his point. You claimed that that your taxes were raised by Obama. Unless you make over $250k a year that is just not true.

    The point, as I understand it, that she’s making in response is that taxing the rich will make it impossible for them to continue affording us lowly workers a paycheck. That, of course, is exactly what the rich would like us to believe.

  42. John

    The problem with increasing taxes on the highest earners is that it has proven to reduce economic growth. Obama’s own economic team members have written papers on this exact subject. That is fine when there is 3% plus growth and you trim the growth a tad by the increases so the gov’t can spend its little heart out. However, we are in an economic contraction. Raising taxes is counter to the entire stimulis package goal that is designed to increase growth, not contract it.

  43. entopticon

    John, did you even read the nonpartisan factchecking link that I supplied? It incontrovertibly proved that the far right’s “43% don’t pay federal income tax” argument is nothing more than fallacious disinformation.

    As a matter of fact, most of the 38% of the population (not 43%) with no income tax liability after deductions actually pay a higher percentage of their income in federal taxes than the rich once payroll and excise taxes are accounted for.

    It really is a shame that the far right keeps substituting disinformation for facts in attempt to create a smokescreen that keeps people from seeing the truth.

  44. John

    38 schmirdy eight. It might as well be 43. Its a huge number. You do love to worry about the 5%. There is no significant difference between the two. I’m correct on everything else I said.

  45. shadmarsh

    Still waiting for Tim to explain to me how I am an anonymous coward…

  46. entopticon

    You are correct in everything you said?!? Are you out of your mind? You were correct in absolutely nothing that you said and I irrefutably proved it. The nonpartisan report proved that your claim was complete and utter hogwash.

    Either you didn’t read the report, or you didn’t understand it, because it directly addresses your fallacious claim and it incontrovertibly proves it to be entirely false. That 43% percent number that right wingers disingenuously trot out was in reference to those with no income tax liability after deductions, but they were completely wrong to conclude that that means that that 43% doesn’t pay federal taxes. As the independent fact checking report proved, that is a total lie.

    In fact, when the picture is complete, and payroll and excise taxes are accounted for, those people actually pay a higher overall percentage of their income in federal taxes than the top 20%!

    You claimed that 43% of the country doesn’t pay federal taxes. I provided concrete proof from an independent fact checking organization (founded by a staunch Republican no less) that that is completely untrue, and that not only do they pay federal taxes, those people that you claim don’t pay federal taxes actually pay a higher percentage of their income in federal taxes than the richest 20%. That means that I absolutely proved you to be incorrect. Learn to recognize when you are clearly wrong.

  47. John

    I dont want to pay no taxes for no helth care–i thot we paid them thar taxes for fiting terroests?

  48. Goooh Fan

    All of you sound like a broken record. My God, none of you,the left,right, moderate, or independent have any actual representation in Congress. Please check out and join a “movement” worthy of your attention. You can’t change the two party system without first reforming the election process! has some legal and effective ways to change politics forever. It’s based on Ben Franklin’s wrtings and urging to scrap the party system-it was corrupt in England and it is corrupt in America.

  49. Michael Muller

    Bluestar Mom:

    With all due respect, every person is vested in society — no matter what they own or how much they earn or how much in tax they pay

    Some people have more influence, to be sure. But we all have a stake — whatever our station in life.


  50. John

    I said:

    “% don’t pay federal income tax. Payroll taxes are different and everyone who works pays them.”

    Can you not read? I singled out ‘income tax’ from other types of taxes. Just like the fact check article did. So there.

  51. entopticon

    So there? What are you 12? You can say anything that you want, but that won’t make it true. Payroll taxes are federally taxed income, and you missed the whole point of the fact-checking report. Your argument that income tax is specially privileged by magical fairies doesn’t hold water. As the factchecking report makes clear, it is the purposely deceptive propaganda of the far right.

    The point in the article that completely negates the central premise of your argument, is that the people with no income tax liability actually pay a higher percentage of their income in federal taxes! Try to spin that all you want, it won’t get you anywhere.

  52. John

    I have no issues with the factcheck article. I read their web site all the time.

    You are making assumptions way in addition to the statement I made. No surprise there.

    Saying the far right, however, created all of the taxing methods that are so regressive to the poor is a folly. The left makes up all these new taxes and then jacks the rates. Blame them … those who actually created the system you hate so much.

  53. entopticon

    You are projecting John. No surprise there. The factchecking piece was made specifically to dispel the right-wing’s misleading and fallacious rhetorical talking point claiming that the bottom 40% of the population doesn’t pay taxes. The whole point of the piece was to show that that right-wing extremist rhetoric, which you and Bluestar Mom have been spouting here, is simply not true.

    Instead of just admitting that you have been parroting the fallacious, entirely discredited propaganda of the far right, you just keep digging yourself in deeper. I never said anything about the far right writing all the tax laws. You created that straw man argument yourself. What I did say, and did prove, is that the right-wing extremist propaganda about the bottom 40% of the country not paying federal taxes is shamefully misleading, absolute hogwash, and that the exact opposite is in fact true because in reality those people actually pay more in federal taxes than the richest 20%!

  54. entopticon

    Note*, by “more” that means that the bottom 40% pay a higher percentage of their overall income in federal taxes than the richest 20%)

    And by the way, if you seriously expect that that Factcheck report was made to dispel a different right-wing talking point that also just coincidentally argues that the bottom 40% aren’t paying federal taxes, you are delusional. The Factcheck report was made to dispel the exact talking point that you and Bluestar mom have been spreading here, and you know it. Further attempts to deny it are just more and more pathetic. I completely proved that your talking point was absolute garbage. The least you could do is own up to it.

  55. John

    I never said that the bottom 40% doesn’t pay any taxes of any kind. The Democrats have expanded what used to be a discussion on income taxes to all taxes. They have changed the semantics fit their new tax policies. I have no problem with that now that everyone knows the ground rules.

    I have been pointing out that the regressive – look that up is you need to – tax structure of ‘plucking the feathers where they hurt the least’ is a favorite of the left. All the little taxes here, there and everywhere stack up on the common man. Look at the over 100 new taxes just in NYCity. The common man has to pay most of those. The right didn’t push all those new taxes, the left did. It is the lefts fault that the lowest income folks pay a such a high percentage of their income in overall taxes. Look at the lottery – it is an excellent example of the left extracting money from the poor with no remorse. You should hate the lottery.

    Focusing back on federal income taxes, W lowered the bottom income tax rates further than any modern Democrat ever has. Blame the rightful conspirators.

  56. John

    Federal Income Tax and Payroll Tax are not the same. If you want to say they are for this discussion, I’ll play ball. Yes, the bottom 40% pay too much taxes – who put those structures in place? The Democrats.

  57. entopticon

    You are hilarious John. The conclusion that you draw from’s report that found that the right has been purposely misleading the public with the fallacious propaganda about the bottom 40% not pulling their weight, is that it’s the left’s fault?!? Absolutely amazing. The Democrats expanded what used to be a discussion on income taxes to all taxes?!? What the hell are you talking about? You think people’s wallets care? The amount of taxes paid is the amount of taxes paid.The report said absolutely nothing about the Democrats changing some argument, and even if it had, what an asinine point. Again, the report was responding to the right-wing extremist talking point that you and Bluestar Mom have been regurgitating here, and it irrefutably proved you to be full of baloney.

    Why do you keep pushing that completely ridiculous straw man argument about the Democrats raising taxes with “regressive” taxes (which have been bipartisan by the way)? Where did I say the Democrats never raised taxes? You are projecting your ridiculous right-wing extremist rhetoric about lowering taxes onto me. I think taxes should be raised if anything.

  58. John

    Ent – the problem here is that I have worked in the financial/tax sector. I understand industry terminology and practices. You clearly do not. The semantics you are abusing matter to having a discussion.

    Yes, the Dems created the regressive tax structure we exist in today. You really think the Reps actually instituted all those little taxes? All those little taxes that punish the poor man?

  59. entopticon

    John, You understand the terminology? I guess just little old me and the financial analysts at the Annenberg Center’s just aren’t smurt like you. Pancakes, rabbits, phone guard, microwave. As long as you are just talking nonsense and all.

    Your claim that the Democrats are the only ones behind “regressive” taxes, as if countless Republicans haven’t been the ones calling for sin taxes, is a riot. It is kind of cute how you just make crap up as you go along.

    No I don’t just think that Republicans have instituted sin taxes, it is hardly a secret; it is an incontrovertible fact. There are countless cases, such as Rick Perry, Governor of TX, who wanted to pay for billions of dollars in property tax cuts for the richest home owners with sin taxes, or Gov George Pataki, who wanted to greatly expand sin taxes through the lottery and gambling, or FL Republican reps Tom Anderson and Mike Fasano who have been pushing cigarette sin taxes, or any of the countless other cases.

    Your contention that only Democrats are behind sin taxes is like virtually all of your claims; it is demonstrably false, utter nonsense that you just made up.

  60. Piffy!

    John, I dont content that the Dems love their taxes, but how exactly are we to pay for this two-front war championed by the Republican party for years now (and, yes quietly supported by the dems)?

    Am i waay off base here thinking Republican ‘fiscal responsibility’ is some kind of myth, along with unicorns and funky caucasians?

    Because as one of the type of voters who despises both R’s and D’s, i really have a very hard time believing anyone who has aligned themselves with the republican party in the last few decades when they speak of “Fiscal Responsibility”. And to many on the left, that is all the Tea Parties appear to be.

  61. John

    PF – I agree that the Rep used to be the party of fiscal responsibility. Maybe they will get back to that core value. More likely them than the Dems with Pelosi and Reid. They need new leadership too.

  62. entopticon

    When were the Republicans fiscally responsible? When Herbert Hoover massively increased our debt, created astonishing economic disparity, and landing us in the great depression? Deja vu. Fortunately Roosevelt leveled off our national debt.

    Or was it Ronald Reagan, who increased our national debt more than every President in US history before him combined? Accounting for inflation, Reagan also gave us the largest tax hike in American history, which is certainly amusing.

    Or was it GW, who like Reagan, increased our national debt more than every President in US history combined? And like Hoover, Bush created unconscionable economic disparity and landed us in the next great economic crisis.

    Under Carter we were the largest creditor nation on Earth and had very little debt, and under Reagan we became the largest debtor nation on Earth.

    Under Clinton we leveled off the national debt and even started paying down the deficit!

    It really is amusing how Republicans continue to pretend to be fiscally responsible even though history shows the exact opposite to be true.

  63. entopticon

    Oh, and by the way, the Congressional Budget Office had predicted that Bush inherited a projected $5.6 trillion dollar budget surplus when he went into office, which makes the fact that he managed to put us into more debt than every other President in US history combined even more amazing.

  64. John

    The Rep’s are for small gov’t. The Dem’s are not. That is not a secret. Did some Rep’s over spend …. yes. I’m not naive enough to think one party has all the answers.

    W’s surplus was destroyed in a few moments by Osama Bin Laden. Just like OBL punished the rest of the world’s economy with that move. Also, Bill Gates is responsible for the economic success during Clinton’s era. A monkey could have run things then.

  65. Piffy!

    John, You didnt answer my question about how we are supposed to pay for thsi “War on Terror” without taxes. All you did was try and prop the Republicans up by comparing them to some of the worst aspects of the Democratic Party.

    This sort of rhetoric is exactly why the “Tea Parties” hold no credibility outside the highly partisan circles that often find themselves clustering in rural areas. If this is all you want to be, then fine. But if you truly wish to be a populist movement, you are going to have to do a lot more than pay a tiny bit of lip service to the concept that the Republican party needs to “change its leadership”.

    If you really think the republican party represents fiscal responsibility in anything beyond words and slogans, then you have had your head in the sand for decades, and are no different than the Dems you decry. Our National Debt is $ 11.6 trillion. This is something created equally by Reps and Dems. Until you can honestly admit this to yourself, you are just yelling at a mirror.

  66. John

    I agree that the war is a big and blunderous (sp?) expense. W’s war plan was terrible. However, its where we are now.

    Just because we are spending in one area where we messed up, does not mean we should take on others. Many others. Obama is taking on too much during this economic recession. Growth is necessary to make many of his plans work. Let’s get some growth, then discuss other massive spending plans.

  67. Piffy!

    [b]I agree that the war is a big and blunderous (sp?) expense. W’s war plan was terrible. However, its where we are now. [/b]

    Well, why were these Tea Party-ers not out protesting the fiscal irresponsibility of “W’s War” for the past 5+ years? I dont recall hearing a single peep from the so-called Right about this prior to this year. Not a peep.

    So, perhaps this has just a bit to do with my skepticism for the claims of a ‘populist, non-partisan’ nature of the tea parties.

  68. entopticon

    (PFKaP), Democrats and Republicans both bear responsibility for our national debt, but I definitely don’t think it is fair to say that they bear equal responsibility. Not even close.

    Here is a chart of our national debt (accounting for inflation) since WWII. It was remarkably stable until Reagan got into office and started spending like a drunken sailor. Note the skyrocketing spike during the Reagan and Bush years, the decline during the Clinton years, and then the second skyrocketing spike during the GW Bush years:

  69. John

    I don’t carry the R’s banner. I can say though, that they protested what W and the R’s in congress have done over the last 8 years by not showing up to vote in the last election.

    One thing that W and Ronald had in their favor was a robust economy and a blossoming tech sector to support their over the top spending. It may have been wrong to take on that kind of debt, but the growth paid for it. Obama does not have growth and the tech sector can barely hold their own. We need to wait before we spend or increase taxes on anyone. Both will slow our way out of this recession.

  70. entopticon

    John said: “One thing that W and Ronald had in their favor was a robust economy and a blossoming tech sector to support their over the top spending. It may have been wrong to take on that kind of debt, but the growth paid for it.”

    Sorry, but that’s just not true. Growth paid for it? No, it didn’t. It’s debt. It wasn’t paid for. In fact, under Reagan and GW the deficit skyrocketed.

    Under Clinton, the strong economy and repeal of tax cuts for the rich allowed us to actually start paying down the deficit. Conversely, GW left us with an astronomical deficit, and it sure as heck wasn’t payed for by growth or anything else.

  71. Hippies Suck

    As a progressive, I think it’s sad that liberals seem to always demean working-class white people as just a bunch of dumb rednecks. The cartoon does a good job of pointing out silliness in conservative arguments, but by being so condescending towards other people it doesn’t make liberals look any better. I don’t understand why liberals feel like they can be so demeaning and elitist towards this demographic and then wonder aloud why they refuse to vote democratic. Progressive forces will never be able to unit with the rural white working class if some of us insist on this kind of ridiculous classism, because that’s what it is. Everyone here would do well to read “Deer Hunting With Jesus” by Joe Bageant and get out of your ivory towers.

  72. John

    You’ve missed my point.

    During those times of excessive spending, there was economic growth. Just like the American population, we were spending like there was no tomorrow because of the prosperity at the time. Clinton was able to make payments on the debt he inherited because of the booming tech sector making everyone lots of money.

    Now is the opposite. A severe economic contraction. We’ll regret this spending when our debt to income ratio is so bad. Its a time for belt tightening and streamlining, not apocalyptic spending.

  73. entopticon

    I think you may have missed my point. You really don’t see the ridiculous irony of Republicans creating the vast majority of our national debt (which is indisputable) then turning around and lecturing Democrats about fiscal responsibility?!?

  74. entopticon

    That may be my favorite right-wing propaganda of all, the “completely ignore the fact that we are the ones responsible for the massive national debt and don’t dwell on the past, just trust us anyway” argument.

    Past is prologue.

  75. John

    If I represented the right wing, I’d feel insulted.

    I’ll pass it on to the right wing extremists if you want.

  76. Piffy!

    “Hippies Suck”-Is it still an ivory tower if my home its made of cob and is partially submerged in the earth?

  77. Piffy!

    [b]I’m not stuck in the past. I’m worried about right now. [/b]

    Sorry, John, but that just sounds like convenient amnesia.

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