No flag big enough

On the very same day as the earthquake in China, the president of that country was on the ground telling people who were trapped: “Hold on, the army is coming to rescue you.” The army was on the scene the same day also, and they were working on rescue operations. Now compare that to our president’s response to Katrina. I am sure that all Americans got the message from Katrina: You are on your own in a disaster, and your government will not help you.

But it is not the inept response to disasters that makes me think that Bush and Cheney need to be impeached. It is not even the erosion of our civil liberties that makes me think that way. It is their support of kidnapping, illegal detention without charges, rape, torture, extrajudicial murder, wars of aggression and ruinous occupations of other countries. It is all these things that cause me to feel that impeachment is the only moral choice. It is all these things that cause me to feel that there is no flag big enough to cover our shame.

As Ashcroft once said, “History will not judge this kindly.”
— Susan Oehler
Asheville

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158 thoughts on “No flag big enough

  1. travelah

    Susan, the majority of people living in south Louisiana at the time understand that the President of the US does not shoulder the blame for the damage done by hurricane Katrina. Being one of those people living there at the time, I know there was a great deal of blame to go around to a lot of people. The principle people to point fingers at are not Bush and Cheney but Blanco, Nagin and Brown.
    No one including you and the President comprehended the scale of the damage done in south Louisiana and trying to scapegoat the President (and the VP?) for that disaster is simply speaking out of ignorance. Thousands of us could not get into the affected areas to offer any assistance. That was not the Presidents fault. If you want to place any blame on an individual, choose the right ones. The people of Louisiana did in running Democrat Kathleen Blanco out of office.

  2. Dionysis

    Always ready to defend the indefensible and to help insure Bush and his minions are NEVER held accountable for anything, travelah the tireless troll, using his patented “I know more than you or anyone else so pay attention” approach, repeats the same right-wing excuses offered in the immediate wake of the tragedy. Yes, there were failures by state and local officials there, no doubt. But, as the 600 page report by House investigators revealed,

    “leaders from President Bush down disregarded ample warnings of the threat to New Orleans and did not execute emergency plans or share information that would have saved lives…

    (the) report lays primary fault with the passive reaction and misjudgments of top Bush aides, singling out Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, the Homeland Security Operations Center and the White House Homeland Security Council…

    it is an unusual compendium of criticism by the House GOP, which generally has not been aggressive in its oversight of the administration…

    House and Senate investigative committees have already revealed the lack of White House awareness of events on the ground, political infighting between federal and state leaders, delays in ordering evacuations and the meltdown of FEMA operations…

    The report said the single biggest federal failure was not anticipating the consequences of the storm…Disaster planners had rated the flooding of New Orleans as the nation’s most feared scenario…

    Given those warnings, the report notes Bush’s televised statement on Sept. 1 that “I don’t think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees,” and concludes: “Comments such as those . . . do not appear to be consistent with the advice and counsel one would expect to have been provided by a senior disaster professional.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/11/AR2006021101409.html

  3. travelah

    entop, you knucklehead, those of us living there did not anticipate the failure. Everybody thought the city had been spared until there were structural failures. It was not an overflow that innundated the city. .. and yes, I do know better on this issue than yourself. I was there.

  4. Dionysis

    Oh, and let’s re-visit how current GOP nominee John McCain characterized Bush’s response at that time:

    “–Touring the Lower Ninth Ward this morning, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) blasted the Bush administration’s handling of Hurricane Katrina and vowed to respond differently if elected president.”

    “Never again, never again will a disaster of this nature be handled in the terrible and disgraceful way that it was handled,” McCain told reporters after walking a few blocks through the still-devastated area.”

    http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/04/24/mccain_tours_lower_ninth_ward.html

    But keep in mind, according to ‘triple t’, McCain is just another Democrat, so his words probably don’t count.

  5. Dionysis

    “do know better on this issue than yourself”

    Sure you do, bucko. You know more than ANYONE, including members of the House investigatory team and every expert and analyst in the country. Why? Because you say you “were there.” In light of this, every time I see a replay of Tim Russert nailing David Dukes on Meet the Press, I’ll think of you.

  6. travelah

    Sure you do, bucko. You know more than ANYONE, including members of the House investigatory team and every expert and analyst in ….

    No, I know better on this matter than the idiots calling for the impeachment of Bush and Chenney over Hurricane Katrina. As for the House, no partisanship there, eh?

  7. travelah

    and every expert and analyst in the country.
    Of course that excludes those who actually know what happened …

  8. Dionysis

    “No, I know better on this matter than the idiots calling for the impeachment of Bush and Chenney(sic)over Hurricane Katrina.”

    I’ve never personally called for their impeachmeht over Katrina, just over their other mountain of crimes, treason and malfeasance.

    “As for the House, no partisanship there, eh?”

    Actually, there was almost pure partisanship, with this being the exception. Evidently, you forget that at that time, the House was Republicon controlled.

  9. travelah

    I’ve never personally called for their impeachmeht over Katrina, just over their other mountain of crimes, treason and malfeasance.

    You may not have but the opening post did. As for a mountain of crimes, treason and malfeasance, you expose yourself as a political neophyte. Name one high misdemeanor or crime that Bush could possibly be convicted of by the Senate? I think this discussion occurred a few months ago and your ilk embarrassed themselves with these spurious assertions.

  10. Eli Cohen

    “high misdemeanor” (what the hell does that mean?)Travelah, you expose yourself as ignorant. For as long as the crookservatives were in power, he (bushie)was above the law. We may see a change in that status next year…how sweet it is!

  11. High crimes

    1. Torture is illegal under US law and the Geneva Conventions which we are a signature of. Both Bush and Cheney authorized torture.

    2. Electronic surveillance of US citizens without a warrant.

    3. Suspension of habeas corpus rights guaranteed in the Constitution. Jose Padilla is a US citizen.

    4. The outing of Valerie Plame an undercover CIA operative through the office of the Vice-president.

    Misdemeanors

    1. Political firings of US District Attorneys.

    2. Use of multiple signing statements in order to ignore laws passed by Congress.

    3. Lying to the American public. “We do not torture.”

    Anyone else want to add to the list?

    The only reason they have not been impeached is because the Democratic party is partially complicit in the whole mess and they don’t want to rock their Beltway lifestyle.

  12. travelah

    Crimes:
    1. Waterboarding is not regarded as torture.
    2. Electronic surveillance of international calls is not illegal. You should also be aware of the fact that ALL international calls are monitored by the NSA.
    3. Habeas corpus rights must be claimed rather than treated as a Miranda right.
    4. Valarie Plame was already outed and not a covert agent at the time (a critical point). The person involved out of the Vice Presidents Office has already been tried and convicted with no connect to Cheney involved.
    Misdemeanors
    1. All U.S. District Attorneys serve at the complete discretion of the President of the United States with no exceptions.
    2. This chage makes no sense at all. It would have to be explained further.
    3. The only time lying is a misdemeanor or felony is when false statements are provided in sworn testimony.

    The fact is there are no impeachable offenses with which to charge the President or the Vice-President. The Congressional leadership knows this and this is why impeachment efforts will go nowhere. Besides that, it would be impossible to get a conviction. In addition to that, there is no public support for such proceedings not to mention there not being enough time to impeach and convict before the twice elected President retires.

  13. Eli Cohen

    Here’s a quote for all you facists out there (travelah)

    “And on the subject of burning books: I want to congratulate librarians, not famous for their physical strength or their powerful political connections or their great wealth, who, all over this country, have staunchly resisted anti-democratic bullies who have tried to remove certain books from their shelves, and have refused to reveal to thought police the names of persons who have checked out those titles.

    So the America I loved still exists, if not in the White House or the Supreme Court or the Senate or the House of Representatives or the media. The America I love still exists at the front desks of our public libraries.”
    — Kurt Vonnegut (A Man Without a Country)

  14. Dionysis

    Oh travelah, oh travelah…since you claim to be a ‘social libertarian’, let’s see what this country’s premier libertarian icon (Ron Paul) has to say, then tell us why he’s all wrong and you and Der Chimpenfuehrer are correct:

    “Paul strongly supported the recent Supreme Court decision giving habeas corpus rights to Guantanamo inmates and criticized McCain’s comments on it, saying, “If you’d call that court ruling ‘naive,’ you’d have to call the Founding Fathers naive.”

    http://rawstory.com/news08/2008/06/18/ron-paul-osama-bin-laden-loves-what-we-have-done/

  15. travelah

    Christophere, the facts are what they are anad the leftist rabble should come to terms with that fact.

    big E, I have been a life-long fan of Vonnegut’s work and find the burning of books to be atrocious (even old books in need of binding).

  16. The American public is coming to terms with the fact that a symbiotic political and media relationship of elites in Washington exists solely to serve its own interest and is enabled by a bunch of partisan hacks with authoritarian, holier than thou attitudes who only lack the brown uniforms and support in enough numbers to make a repeat of history successful.

  17. Dionysis

    “The American public is coming to terms with the fact that a symbiotic political and media relationship of elites in Washington exists solely to serve its own interest and is enabled by a bunch of partisan hacks with authoritarian, holier than thou attitudes who only lack the brown uniforms and support in enough numbers to make a repeat of history successful.”

    Excellent post, Christopher. You nailed it on the head with the phrase “bunch of partisan hacks with authoritarian, holier than thou attitutudes…”. That would be epitomized by travelah, offering irksome, un-American opinions masquerading as ‘facts’.

  18. bobaloo

    Dionysis,

    I can’t really argue with what you quoted Paul as saying but, I have to say, the man is absolutely clueless. In addition to your quote, he also had this to say:

    Paul said it’s “irrelevant” to him who wins the election in November, because “whether it’s Obama or McCain, from my point of view, there’s not a whole lot of difference.”

    He can’t be serious can he?

    He follows up by talking about how we invaded two Arab countries, sniffing at the audacity of the United States to be such aggressors (he is correct on that concerning Iraq, anyway).
    Two points on this. One, Afghanistan is not an Arab country (not really a remarkable gaffe, but an illustration of his cluelessness) and two: He voted in favor of the Afghanistan invasion. Yet he acts oblivious that he, in part, is complicit in “playing into Osama’s hands”.

  19. Dionysis

    Paul said it’s “irrelevant” to him who wins the election in November, because “whether it’s Obama or McCain, from my point of view, there’s not a whole lot of difference.”

    “He can’t be serious can he?”

    I saw the quote too, and I would ask the same question as you.

    Just to flesh out a bit…I’ve never supported Ron Paul, finding him a curious little man, much like the mirror image of Dennis Kucinich. However, what I respect about both of them is their professed admiration and support of the Constitution. Both have stood up to withering criticism yet held their ground. I say ‘bravo’.

  20. travelah

    Excellent post, Christopher. You nailed it on the head with the phrase “bunch of partisan hacks with authoritarian, holier than thou attitutudes…”. That would be epitomized by travelah, offering irksome, un-American opinions masquerading as ‘facts’.

    That sounds far more appropriate to apply to that arrogant pissant bunch of Democrats attempting to impose their nanny-state mentality upon everybody else.

    As for Ron Paul’s comments, extending habeas corpus rights to foreign terrorists has nothing to do with social libertarianism. Instead it is an extremely dangerous precedent that reverses previous Court rulings and compromises national security by extending US civil court protections to enemy combatants.
    There will be fewer enemy combatants “captured”. You figure out what that means.

  21. Jon Elliston

    Thanks for all the energetic discussion, but let this serve as a reminder to all would-be commenters that we don’t allow name-calling on in this forum. Several recent comments were not approved because they involved name-calling.

    Feel free to challenge each other’s idea, but personal attacks will not be allowed here.

    Thank you,

    Jon Elliston
    Mountain Xpress

  22. Dionysis

    Okay. So using the word ‘knucklehead’ ( third post above) is not considered name calling?

  23. travelah

    ohhh knucklehead is kinda like saying shucks but I’ll refrain from using it again. :)

  24. Dionysis

    “ohhh knucklehead is kinda like saying shucks but I’ll refrain from using it again. :)”

    The question was posed to the Mountain Xpress staff for clarification. But thanks for your opinion.

  25. entopticon

    What I want to know is, is there a flag big enough to cover up travelah’s high misdemeanors? Since anyone who isn’t aware of whatever the heck a “high misdemeanor” is is a political neophyte according to travelah, the “knuckleheaded” mouthpiece of the extreme right-wing, it must be some super top secret special legal term that only applies to him.

    Maybe it only applies to the secret army of Islamic gay black nationalist Marxists that travelah is always so worried about. Just because travelah’s paranoid theories may seem to be completely insane to us regular folks, it doesn’t mean that Obama isn’t really out to get him.

    I have to agree with Christopher C NC and Dionysis travelah. It’s pretty odd for you to still be calling yourself a libertarian after that painfully convoluted defense of the Bush administration’s blatant trampling all over the constitution.

    “Waterboarding is not regarded as torture”??? Ummm… what?!? I’m sure the Japanese officers that were convicted of war crimes for waterboarding would have liked to have known that.

    Apparently travelah is from the rare yet humorously disturbed, “Geneva Convention Schmaneva Convention” school of thought.

    John McCain from the heated exchange with Mit Romney in the Republican debates:
    “Then I am astonished that you would think such a – such a torture would be inflicted on anyone in our — who we are held captive and anyone could believe that that’s not torture. It’s in violation of the Geneva Convention.”

    John McCain on March 9th, when asked by Scott Pelley of 60 Minutes if waterboarding is torture:
    “”Sure. Yes. Without a doubt.”

    Then Pelley went onto ask:
    “So the United States has been torturing POWs?”

    McCain responded:
    “Yes. Scott, we prosecuted Japanese war criminals after World War II. And one of the charges brought against them, for which they were convicted, was that they water-boarded Americans”

    Golly…. Maybe travelah knows something special about waterboarding that John McCain, The UN Convention Against Torture, the Geneva Convention, and a long list of human rights organizations were all unaware of. That travelah, he’s a sharp one.

    Remember travelah, keeping teenage boys in a cage in your basement doesn’t make you an expert on torture, even though you may feel like one. I’m sure those Klan acquaintances you are so proud of could tell you all about it.

  26. William P Miller

    HaHa, the letter writer thinks the leader of China is on the job? Tell that to the people of Tibet who still live under the boot heel of communist China. Tell that to the democracy demonstrators who were machine gunned down by that same Red Army a few years back. 1 year of an Obama, and you will be saying “I miss Bubba”.

  27. travelah

    John McCain from the heated exchange with Mit Romney in the Republican debates:
    “Then I am astonished that you would think such a – such a torture would be inflicted on anyone in our — who we are held captive and anyone could believe that that’s not torture. It’s in violation of the Geneva Convention.”

    John McCain on March 9th, when asked by Scott Pelley of 60 Minutes if waterboarding is torture:
    “”Sure. Yes. Without a doubt.”

    Then Pelley went onto ask:
    “So the United States has been torturing POWs?”

    McCain responded:
    “Yes. Scott, we prosecuted Japanese war criminals after World War II. And one of the charges brought against them, for which they were convicted, was that they water-boarded Americans”

    John McCain is entitled to his opinion. Obviously, Mitt Romney and a lot of others disagree. That is one of the things that (while not only that) make McCain a moderate Democrat in this race.Interestingly, the same man who when “waterboarded” started giving up all kinds of information now states he wants to die a martyrs death. If “waterboarding” saves a 1,000 lives, then I have no problem with it. If it saves one life, I have no problem with it. If it’s purpose is just to torture, then I have a problem with it.

  28. travelah

    Mr. Miller, Chine responded because they have an Olympic venue coming up shortly and the bad press would be bad for them. This is the same country that has murdered millions and kept a starvation famine quiet for decades. They are very much friends of the Obammunists, certainly friends of Obama’s bud, William Ayers.

  29. entopticon

    Who would Jesus waterboard? I hear he wasn’t a big fan of torture.

    It’s sad when people are so broken that they can’t even see that one of the main reasons not to torture people is that it is a double edged sword. It’s OK with someone like travelah, who doesn’t tend to thinkthings through because that would just make too much sense, to say that it’s OK to torture if it saves a single life. Why travelah keeps referring to himself as a Christian is beyond logic.

    When we torture people, saving lives or not, it guarantees that our own people are going to get tortured as well. The Geneva convention exists for good reason.

    “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
    — Benjamin Franklin

  30. travelah

    entop, much depends on whether you would consider a gnashing of teeth when facing an eternity of damnation to be torture or not. How about the stoning of adulterers? Certainly you would consider that a heinous torturing crime? You see, your perspective is warped and shaped by your personal rejection and enmity towards the man you attempt to use as a weapon.

    But enough of that. I certainly would favor any reasonable means to extract information form a terrorist if that information will save your life and others. Now, sensible men and women cannot rely of the same from you and those who think as you do.

  31. travelah

    I forgot the Franklin quote … that is a very good one but unfortunately, you are misapplying it out of context. Franklin by most modern accounts was not the author of the quote but instead it is attributed to a man named Richard Jackson. More importantly, at the time, the quote would have been applicable to those Revolutionaries (remember, the ones you call terrorists)who hid behind fence rows and trees and shot “redcoats” with 50 caliber lead shot. In other words it advocated killing other men. How ironic a leftist-liberal would appeal to such a context??

  32. travelah

    How ironic a leftist-liberal would appeal to such a context??

    Then again it is not truly ironic. The “theology” of the leftist-liberal mindset has been responsible for the bloodshed and starvation of millions and millions of people over the past century since it’s rise in modern “civilization” under the auspices of Marx, Lennin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and of course, Obama’a buddy, William Ayers.

  33. “After years of disclosures by government investigations, media accounts, and reports from human rights organizations, there is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes. The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.”
    Major General Anthony Taguba

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2008/06/18/BL2008061801546.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

    When this sad period in our history is written, who will be the ones portrayed as standing defiant in defense of liberty and the principles on which this nation was founded and who will be shown crouching in compliant fear, afraid of a weak and pathetic enemy and giving meek fealty to the illusion of a strong protecting leader?

  34. travelah

    … and who will be shown crouching in compliant fear, afraid of a weak and pathetic enemy and giving meek fealty to the illusion of a strong protecting leader?

    A nuclear armed radical Islamic insurgency, whether through Iran’s desires or acquired through a lax Pakistani nuclear policy does not represent a picture of a weak and pathetic enemy. Those who suffer from such an appeasement attitude cannot be entrusted with our security and future except through the votes of foolish minded sheeple.

  35. Radical Islam is a gnat compared to the nuclear armed military forces of the former Soviet Union that we stood up to. You are dripping in FEAR. Be sure to keep a good supply of extra panties on hand.

  36. entopticon

    You forgot to answer the question travelah…. Who would Jesus waterboard? Is your twisted right-wing extremist version of Christianity really so sick that you think it’s ok for a Christian to advocate torture? Somewhere lost inside you there is a a person who knows better travelah.

    Your arguments really are a joke, but I am thankful for the amusement. It’s particularly funny how you never seem to be able to grasp the whole concept of the people who live in glass houses adage. Christianity has certainly played more than it’s fair share in the history of torture and genocide, and of course Christians are the only people ever to have dropped a nuclear bomb on human beings.

    Here is another good Benjamin Franklin quote for you travelah:

    “A virtuous heretic will be saved before a wicked Christian.”

    I guess that spells trouble for you travelah. Waterfront property on the lake of eternal fire.

  37. travelah

    entop, Franklin was not a Christian so, like many others who had an enmity towards Christ, he didn’t approach the issue with an unbiased view….. enough of that ..

    Speaking of well informed voters again, it seems the Democrat controlled Congress is backing more war in Iraq again. Whats up with that, my crazy peacenics?
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,369388,00.html

  38. travelah

    Christopher, the Soviets turned out to be no match for Ronald Reagan. The difference between the Soviets and the radical Islamic fascists is the Soviets feared retaliation. The radical Muslims don’t care.

  39. William P Miller

    Wow, looks like the “private” conversation at informed voters has moved over here. traveler, why do you bother with Mr e? He is just a far leftwing troll who goads for his own weird satisfaction.

    On subject, Red China is an evil leftwing dictatorship. The naivette of the writer concerning Red China vs the USA is just laughable. Some gen X’ers are so deluded and spoiled by the opportunity and peace bought by the presidency of President Ronald W Reagan and our military. Youngsters: if you want to live under a cruel leftwing dictatorship, move to Cuba or Red China. The rest of us appreciate and love the freedom we have in the USA. And President George W Bush, with all his warts, is light years ahead of the leftwing dictator who runs Red China.

  40. entopticon

    Who would Jesus waterboard travelah? You can be pro-waterboarding or you can be a Christian, but you can’t be both; so which is it?

    The difference between Islamic fundamentalists and Christian fundamentalists is….. well there really is none. It’s not Muslims verses Jews, or Jews verses Christians, or Christians verses Muslims or everyone v atheists. It’s religious fundamentalists and hyper-nationalists verses the rest of the world.

  41. William P Miller

    Mr e, if you think there is no difference, then move to Iran. Put your money where your mouth is.

  42. travelah

    The difference between Islamic fundamentalists and Christian fundamentalists is….. well there really is none

    The difference between a brutal leftist tyrant and a leftist-liberal is ….. well, one is in power and the other one isn’t.

  43. entopticon

    Violent Jesus is way cool. I will have to draw a nice big picture of Jesus waterboarding an enemy combatant. He could even rape him with a toilet plunger for good measure.

    No wonder the Christian right is so dementedly twisted. Instead of christ being a symbol of pacifism, unconditional love, and eternal forgiveness, for them he is a malicious, violent, right wing idiot that would approve of waterboarding.

    That whole angry, jealous god model that fundamentalist Muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship is just too funny. Instead of God being an all encompassing benevolent force of love, they all worship a psychotic, jealous, angry giant that floats around in the clouds with the emotional intelligence of a five year old, who kills children for the sins of their parents. And people wonder why fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims are so twisted.

    William P Miller…. Iran is just an example of what would happen if fundamentalist Christians got the theocracy that they are always pushing for.

    travelah…. you are too funny in that you don’t even know enough about fascism to know that fascism is a right-wing extremist conceit. There is no such thing as a liberal fascist. There is also nothing liberal about Stalin, Pol Pot, yada-yada yada.

    When you rant about how Obama is secretly a communist, you may think you sound intelligent, but you actually sound like you have virtually no education whatsoever.

  44. travelah

    you are too funny in that you don’t even know enough about fascism to know that fascism is a right-wing extremist conceit. There is no such thing as a liberal fascist. There is also nothing liberal about Stalin, Pol Pot, yada-yada yada.

    Fascism has nothing to do with left vs. right. It is about unbridled nationalism. There is certianly nothing liberal about any despot just asa there is really nothing truly liberal about todays “leftist-liberals” who really are little more than fascist minded in the sense they wish to impose their view of nationalism upon everybody else.

    When you rant about how Obama is secretly a communist, you may think you sound intelligent, but you actually sound like you have virtually no education whatsoever.

    Barack Hussein Obama is not a “secret Communist”. He is instead a leftist radical trying to present himself as a centrist moderate.

  45. entopticon

    Nothing to do with it eh?

    Don’t let the dictionary makers in on your secret:

    “1. an adherent of fascism or other right-wing authoritarian views”

    “a person who is dictatorial or has extreme right-wing views.”

    “a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)”

    “a nationalistic and anti-Communist system of government like that of Italy 1922-43”

    So now Obama isn’t a Marxist, Obamunist conspirator with communist China, anymore. That’s good to hear travelah.

    Tell me travelah, what are his leftist radical policies? Or is it just another one of your imaginary delusional fantasies based on guilt-by-association and email spam from white supremacist hate groups? When you constantly say all of that crap without ever offering a single legitimate example, it just makes you more and more of a joke.

    He must be astonishingly convincing to have convinced so many top military officials as well as well as the Chairman of the Federal Reserve under Ronald Reagan to become radical leftists. Who would have guessed that Ronald Reagan’s Fed chair and so many generals are all really communists and radical left-wing extremists?

    Thank goodness we have an ultra right-wing extremist like you to show us the truth. No doubt little green homosexual aliens are in on the radical leftist conspiracy against you as well.

  46. Dionysis

    Entropticon, I’m sure you realize that travelah represents a very extreme view shared by a small handful of people (in spite of his silly and refuted claim to the contrary). He and his echo chamber sidekick are expressing their fear and anxiety over the fact that after nearly eight years riding high, he and his ilk have been repudiated by the majority in this country. They really aren’t able to do anything but denigrate and smear, having no track record to promote.
    As a practical matter, the views he and his dwindling number of kindred souls share have been rendered effectively inconsequential. They’ll soon be swept away in the current political tides, and will continue to be marginal figures. Travelah and others of his ilk really don’t warrant the time or attention. They and the discredited philosophy they espouse are yesterday’s news. I mean really, do you care what they think, write or say? Yeah, they are aggravating, but, as stated, inconsequential in the scope of things.

  47. William P Miller

    Mr e, you are all talk and no taco. If you hate this country so much, try Cuba. They believe what you believe. LIVE your talk man. Otherwise, you are just blowing bs. Oh, but wait. It is easy to whine about the USA behind the protection of the US Constitution and our brave military. Easy. That’s right, even Mr e realizes that in Cuba you cannot whine. If you do, you end up in jail. Ain’t it a bitch that you just can’t talk anyway you want in a socialist country? Hey, maybe the USA ain’t so bad afterall. -:)

  48. entopticon

    William P Miller you silly flaming hypocrite…. Show me where I said I hate America and would rather live in Cuba. You appear to be talking out of the wrong hole there Billyboy.

    You and travelah are the ones defending Bush’s right to walk all over our civil liberties, not me, so if anyone should be repatriating to Cuba, it should be you Billyboy. At least they have good cigars. Enjoy.

  49. entopticon

    Dionysis, I agree entirely. It’s still fun to poke fun at the right-wing extremists from time to time. travelah and his trusty sidekick will never admit it, but the truth is they both lie awake in bed at night, tortured by the burden of their prejudices as they watch the world drift further and further away from their skewed world view and warped morality.

  50. William P Miller

    Mr e, most of your posts contain hate for the traditions of this country. You refer to them as “rightwing”. But for you to actually understand HOW or WHY they are hateful, I can understand how you are clueless. Dude,think about your political positions. I see a thread of humaneness in you. I just feel you are for some reason bitter toward your country. The USA is not perfect, but considering the alternative, is quite good in the main. God bless America.

  51. entopticon

    Actually William P Miller, you should think about YOUR political positions. There’s a lot more of us than there are of you; that’s why Obama will be our next President. Seriously, do you go out of your way to be hypocritical, or does it just seem that way because you do it so well?

    You are the one who has hate for our traditions. There are a lot less right-wingers than there are left and center. You have a lot more animosity towards the majority of this country than I do, because my side is the majority.

    You are probably a nice enough person etc, but when it comes to your claim that I am the one that ates America, you are projecting. I am the one who was defending the constitution. You are the one who is willing to throw it out the window for the sake of petty vindictiveness.

    The US is wonderful in some ways and it’s terrible in other ways. The good thing is that we are allowed to point out its flaws all we want. If you don’t like that, I am sure Cuba would welcome you with open arms.

    God doesn’t give a hoot about national boundaries, or flags, or patriotism, or Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, or the outcome of football games.

  52. travelah

    Mr. Miller, the method of the leftist-liberal in today’s environment is to type-cast everybody who does not agree with them as “right-wing extremists” and then claim an agreement with the large moderate middle. That middle ground shares little with the leftist other than a general disapproval of the Bush administration and to capture that middle in a general election, the leftist deceptively presents himself as a moderate.
    With regard to the Constitution, it is the strict constructionist who is the defender of that august document. The leftist-liberal attempts to use the constitution through liberal courts to gain what they cannot legislatively or through populist persuasion.

  53. entopticon

    Yes, excellent post Mr travelah, if ignorant blather from a right-wing extremist is what you were going for, you were spot on as usual. The fact is, I know countless conservative Republicans who are not right-wing extremists, so there goes your flimsy argument.

    What makes you a right-wing extremist is the fact that you spout right-wing extremist rhetoric, often plucked directly from the KKK and other Christian white supremacist hate groups, about black nationalists, communists and leftist radical conspiracies, as well as your fundamentalist twaddle incessantly.

    There is NO such thing as a moderate fundamentalist you silly man. Fundamentalism is extremism, whether an evangelical Christian or member of Hezbollah. You are the American Taliban and you don’t even know it. You could no more be considered a moderate than any member of Hamas. The funny thing is, they don’t think they are extremists any more than you do, but the fact is you are really all just the same fundamentalist wackos with different window dressing.

    With regard to the Constitution, you clearly don’t know what the heck you are talking about. You seem to fancy yourself as some kind of constructivist libertarian, but apparently you don’t even know enough about it to even realize that your rhetoric is in complete contrast with those positions. The constitution was meant to protect people’s rights, not trample them. You don’t protect the constitution by trying to poke holes in it and walking al over its foundational tenets.

  54. travelah

    When the doctrines of fiscal conservatism and social liberalism are merged, the result is neither a moderate middle nor a right-wing extremist. A proper term would perhaps be a social conservative. Such a position embraces a strict constuctionist approach with regard to constitutional interpretation and advocates a minimalist government role in personal affairs. George Bush is not a social conservative as he does not embrace a social libertarian viewpoint. For that matter, neither is Bob Barr, the current Libertarian Party candidate. The leftist-liberals who, having swallowed copious amounts of socialist doctrine, are not capable of defining the political spectrum other than through their fogged lens.
    Those who are Christians such as myself do not fit the fundamentalist identifier that leftists wish to pin on us nor would any Wesleyan oriented apologist be a rational target for smearing as racist, bigoted Klaners. Such smears are nothing but an ad hominem attack that have no basis in reality. Christian fundamentalism is not compatible with social libertarianism nor is Wesleyanism (and it’s long standing human rights and abolitionist history) embraced by myopic racists.

    Entop, you need to rationalize a better argument otherwise you end up looking as if you are spouting rabble and pablum.

  55. William P Miller

    I am a libertarian and I appreciate the skill in which you present our arguments, Mr Travelah.

  56. William P Miller

    Mr e, it must be tough being you. So full of hate and whine. Step outside and smell the fresh air. Enjoy the beauty of this area. You aren’t in yankeeland big city any longer. You are in God’s country. Enjoy it and be happy!

  57. entopticon

    travelah said: “George Bush is not a social conservative as he does not embrace a social libertarian viewpoint. ”

    That is just a hilarious thing to say considering you were just defending his right to trample all over the constitution with particularly heinous arguments.

    “The leftist-liberals who, having swallowed copious amounts of socialist doctrine, are not capable of defining the political spectrum other than through their fogged lens. ”

    It is just too freakin’ funny that you can say things like that and not even know that you are a right-wing extremist.

    “Those who are Christians such as myself do not fit the fundamentalist identifier that leftists wish to pin on us nor would any Wesleyan oriented apologist be a rational target for smearing as racist, bigoted Klaners.”

    travelah, for the term fundamentalist to be any more apt in describing you the word would have to be tattooed across your forehead. You are are the American Taliban.

    The Wesleyan church has an abolitionist history, as well as a long tradition of fundamentalists. I can’t even believe you would argue against the fact that you are a fundamentalist when you are the very dictionary definition of the term.

    It is just too rich that Obama gave the commencement speech at Wesleyan U. I gues that makes you a radical leftist with a secret gay Muslim communist plan to overthrow the white race.

    I see that you are not only big on the specious tactic of guilt-by-association, you are trying for innocence-by-association as well. You really do crack me up. If you are so far removed from reality that you don’t even know that you are constantly spouting kkk rhetoric verbatim, I really do feel sorry for you.

    I don’t know how you could exist in this world and not know that white supremacist hate groups share your exact same preoccupation with with “radical leftists”, Muslim conspiracies, communist takeovers, black nationalists, Reverend Wright, liberal yada-yada-yada etc, etc etc.

    As I have stated many times before there is no such thing as a Christian conservative, and it is a ridiculously easy argument to prove. If there was ever a bleeding-heart it was Jesus Christ. To be a Christian means to strive to be Christ-like, which means to be a Christian is to be a bleeding-heart liberalism. This is a logical truism so there are no exceptions.

    As for rabble and pablum, a little rabblerousing keeps things interesting, but I will leave the pablum to you and the rest of your bible college lackeys because I wouldn’t want to interfere with a job you do so phenomenally well.

  58. entopticon

    William P Miller… This isn’t God’s country. God doesn’t have a country. Seriously, who says things like yankeeland? Sounds like something an extra from Deliverance would say. Squeeeeeeeal like a pig! Hee-haw.

    I live way out in the country and get plenty of fresh air thank you very much. Perhaps you should stop playing Nascar in the garage with the windows rolled up, because the fumes may be getting to you there Billyboy.

    You need to listen to your own advice. You are the one saying things like yankeeland, not me. The Yankees are a baseball team. The civil war was over more than 140 years ago, so get over it already. Step outside the trailer and get some fresh air in the year 2008. It’s nice here. We’re all waiting for you.

  59. William P Miller

    Au contrare Mr e, there are God’s country places, and there are hell places. Asheville and WNC is God’s country. Philly, NYC, LA, Chicago are hells. Anyone who knows them can attest. The Southern culture is far superior to yankee crap stations up north. You being here is proof of that. -:)

  60. Jim Shura

    Entop,

    While I think I agree with most of your political views- the manner in which you deploy them does no service to our cause.

    “Knucklehead” is much more civil than implying that someone keeps young boys caged in the basement. And I don’t think that it is masochistic to participate in a forum where your views are in the minority. I do it all the time and find it a relief from the inherent masochism of being self-employed and having a two-year-old.

    I doubt the KKK and Travelah would agree on much but if they had a point or two in common, so what? All of us can find something to agree with in The Communist Manifesto, but that does not mean that any sane person advocates Stalinism.

    Many of the frequent posters on these forums are guilty of using tired clishays (phonetic ‘cuz I can’t get the mark over the e) to describe each others arguments. If you subscribe to a political model where everything is arrayed on a line from left to right, you will never be able to accurately describe anybody. Try set theory instead, that’s what the political and economic kingmakers who really run this country do.

    When I was little there were plenty of avowed racists in the Democratic party and many southern liberals voted Republican. When there are only two parties, left-right is a meaningless distinction. By todays standards, Nixon was a liberal with fascist characteristics: A McCarthy supporter who started the EPA and proposed a national health care plan.

    C’mon folks, wise up.

  61. Jim Shura

    Oh William,

    I spent the first 12 years of my life in Chicago and let me tell you-most of the people in our area came, like my mother, from the south. Economic migration. I don’t remember anyone giving them a hard time unless they insisted on slaughtering animals with the garage door open. You don’t think Atlanta or Charlotte can be “hell places”?

    Two nights ago one of my employees was sitting on his porch here in Asheville when a few bullets hit the house. The police never showed up. Hell is everywhere and it is American culture as a whole that is to blame.

  62. travelah

    Mr. Yuck,
    Thank you for a considerably more civil post than is usual in the threads I participate in. You are right in that there is little I find agreeable among the KKK and it would simply be obviously true that there are a few points that have merit on the part of the KKK. I honestly cannot think of any at the moment but if I pulled up their documentation I am sure there are some.
    You made an interesting point with your comment on set theory. Such theories work best with overlapping spheres of influence as you noted with Nixon. Nixon’s faults were of a particular personal nature and he allowed those faults to interfere and corrupt his public record. Yet, as you noted, he was in many respects a true progressive. One area you did not mention was his foray with China and a thawing of relations with the Soviets. There is no such animal as one that is consistently defined by a plumline from left to right.
    Now, as to whether my views are in a minority or not, well, it really does not matter one way or another. I participate to explore the thought processes of those who hold much differing opinions. Having said that, I would suggest that perhaps my views are not really such a minority among the readership of this publication. The reach of this weekly and it’s readership is not confined to “central Asheville” and the demographics change significantly the further one moves from Pritchard Park.

    In any event thank you for your calming words of wisdom.

  63. entopticon

    Mr Yuck, no offense but I really don’t give a (rhymes with yuck) if you like the way I communicate or not.

    Your argument is seriously lacking and genuinely sophistic. Yes, if there is something in the communist manifesto that doesn’t make you a Stalinist, but if you spent hours every day ranting about the virtues of communist theory it sure as hell would. If you don’t think travelah’s rhetoric has more than just a casual connection to far right white supremacist hate groups, you seriously need to educate yourself on the issue before speaking out on it.

    Moderates don’t call people Obamunists and rant on and on with racist, xenophobic theories about secret black nationalist agendas and Barack Obama being an Islamic mole. That rhetoric is as specific as can be and comes straight from white supremacist hate groups verbatim. When someone passes on the rhetoric of those groups on a liberal website, I am going to come down on them like a ton of bricks whether you like it or not.

    Your contention that travelah’s despicable race-baiting is “civil” makes you as bad as him as far as I’m concerned. Polite civility over issues of despicable race-baiting is just as deplorable as the act itself. I have recently heard many prominent progressive voices such as Rachel Maddow point out that it is not just enough to disprove the miserably bigoted smears of the far right wing that travelah disseminates, they must be ridiculed and stigmatized as well. Polite exchanges over such despicable tripe normalize and perpetuate the diseased memes, ultimately doing more harm than good. You deal with things your way; I’ll deal with them mine and sorry but I really don’t need your advice.

    Actually, going to a website of a group that you strongly disagree with and rabblerousing is called “trolling”. If you like trolling, good for you, but of course, that makes you a troll.

  64. travelah

    entop, perhaps you could provide the name and site location of these alleged racist white supremacist groups you insist on identifying me with? Pajamas Media? Michelle Malkin? Fox News? Associated Press? Chicago Sun-Times? What are these groups that are fueling your rage and your anti-intellectual tirades? Now if you are going to suggest that any of the sites I have mentioned fit your criteria, then all that can be said is that there are medications that can help with such a condition.

    Those of us who question Obama’s honesty and integrity do not claim he is a Muslim mole. Instead, he is deceptive about his past. We do not state there is a black nationalist conspiracy. Instead we state he has been mentored by a racist hate monger for 20 years and that cannot be dismissed as irrelevant any more than the mindset of a Fred Phelps follower can be dismissed.

    Actually, going to a website of a group that you strongly disagree with and rabblerousing is called “trolling”. If you like trolling, good for you, but of course, that makes you a troll.

    If this was your website, then you might have a point but since it is not and instead is a site that extols the virtues of diverse opinion, your point has no bearing on reality. There is much I agree with the Mountain X on.

  65. Jim Shura

    Ouch, I’ve been entopticated.

    “Hoot” does not rhyme with “yuck”. Sophistry? My hindquarters. And dictionary in hand, who is ranting here?

    The problem I have with the way you state your case, Entop, is that you use vitriolic tools developed by Limbaugh and his ilk as if that is the only way to fight. If you are going to use his methods then that makes you as bad as him, as far as I’m concerned. I’m truly apalled that Maddow is now, and I base this on your synopsis, advocating such tactics. I doubt she advocates pedophilia insinuations.

    To equate a Democratic contender with communism or anarchism is as old as the New Deal and the fact that Obama has had some associations with people from the Panther-era leaves him open to such attacks whether they are founded or not.

    I do find the Barack HUSSEIN! Obama/Islamic Mole concept utterly offensive, because the premise behind it is, what? Newspeaky? WMD-Iraqy? Repeat this until it is TRUTH?-But that is just another utterly stupid Limbaughism for his ever-stupider listeners. I think you’ll find that these views originated not on the sites of hate groups but in our mainstream media.

    As far as trolls go, if you think you’ve encountered one it is not wise to feed them.
    Simple disagreement does not a troll make and nobody has ever suggested that I leave a forum because my views are not “mainstream” there.

    I slink back under my bridge now.

  66. entopticon

    Mr. Yuck…. “vitriolic tools developed by Limbaugh”?

    Seriously. Give me a break. Compared to the gonzo journalists like Hunter S Thompson that helped to end a war, or even the current wave like Matt Taiibi, I’m a freakin’ pussycat.

    For better or for worse, blogging has always been a sharp-elbowed medium, literally since its inception at the WELL, which is very interesting to read about if you ever find the time.

    travelah was literally extolling the virtues of torturing human beings. Real, breathing, feeling human beings… and you were offended by my making a joke about him being a sick nutjob who probably keeps little boys in a cage in his basement? You’re priorities are more than little out of whack.

    In my opinion its a huge mistake to suppress outrage and disdain over the insanely despicable policies of George Bush that his minions such as travelah disseminate. By dignifying such atrocities as legitimate concerns you give their twisted notions undeserved legitimacy.. I am not going to have a civil conversation on the pros and cons of torturing human beings. When you do that, you normalize it and make it possible for that toxic meme to spread.

    Seriously, look into the function of stigmatization in societies over the course of history. I’m not kidding; it plays a very important role. When you have a polite discussion about the pros and cons of torturing human beings or whether or not Obama is a radical communist Islamic mole, you strengthen the cause you are trying to fight by dignifying it as a legitimate argument.

    I don’t think the case for torturing human beings is a legitimate argument, if you do, that is your business, but I am not about to dignify such nonsense as if it was humane or reasonable.

  67. entopticon

    travelah, google kkk and you will find all of the intellectual compatriots that you need. I’m not going to do your homework for you.

    It is impossible to take you seriously. You honestly think it is legitimate to make an issue of the fact that Obama briefly had a stepfather who is a Muslim and went to a partially Muslim school when he was 6 frickin years old. You are such a twisted right-wing extremist that it is seriously ok in your mind to make an issue of his Muslim middle name. His mother wasn’t a Muslim. His mother’s parents aren’t Muslims. that’s who raised him. You really are an absolutely despicable bigot.

    Your caricature of Wright as a racist hate monger is particularly hypocritical and ironic. Wright may not be perfect, but he is nowhere near the bigot that you are. You seriously think your obsession with a handful of clips of Wright taken out of context is inspired by concern, not bigotry, but that just demonstrates a profound lack of self awareness.

    Wright is a decorated marine that has been a community leader for many decades and has done far more good in the world that you could ever dream of. Your Wright wing conspiracy theory crap doesn’t change a thing. There will always bigoted wingnuts who will apologize for someone like Billy Graham, who is on record saying and doing many worse things than Wright, and all the while you remain completely oblivious to the hypocrisy and cause of your despicable bigotry. Absolutely pathetic.

  68. William P Miller

    Mr Yuck, your relatives may have come from the South. Fair enough. Some folks were not farm hand material. That doesn’t change the fact that Chicago is hell on Earth, as it truly is. And socialism has a lot to do with it. Plus, the state of Illinois proudly advertises that a war criminal is from their areas. Lincoln. Purposely targeting civilians in a war is a war crime. Lincoln purposely targeted civilians in the last year of the War Between The States. The butthole burned down one of my relative’s farms, so it is personal with me. Fortunately, he was executed by the patriot John boothe. Sherman and Sheridan should have met the same fate.

  69. William P Miller

    Mr e, you are pathetic. Talk about lack of self-awareness, you are the poster boy. Get yourself patriotic and stop crapping on the American flag…will you?

  70. entopticon

    William P Morris, congratulations… You are officially the most hypocritical person on the planet. Really, your hypocrisy is truly of cartoonishly exaggerated proportions. I would be amazed if even traveah wasn’t with me on this one.

    Astonishingly, you actually had the audacity to tell me to get patriotic and “stop crapping on the American Flag” moments after you just finished describing the assassination of a United States President as an “execution.” You even described the assassin, John Wilks Boothe as a patriot! Is the outlandish hypocrisy of that really completely lost on you?

    I pride myself on my imagination, but I truly can’t even imagine a more astonishingly hypocritical thing to say. You are in a league of your own. And you call me pathetic… Now that’s rich.

  71. William P Miller

    Mr e, it is Miller, not Morris. Lincoln was a war criminal who purposely targeted civilian non-combatants during the War Of Northern Aggression. John Boothe, a patriotic Southerner whose home state was then a part of the Confederate States of America, avenged the murder of innocent women and children by executing the perpetrator, Lincoln. And for that brave act, I commend Mr Boothe. You sir have been brainwashed by northerners. Research the truth and set yourself free. Read “The Real Lincoln”. You can go to Barnes & Noble and read it for free.

  72. travelah

    Wright is a decorated marine that has been a community leader for many decades and has done far more good in the world that you could ever dream of.

    Lee Harvey Oswald was a Marine marksman and we know what he did.

    I wrote:
    entop, perhaps you could provide the name and site location of these alleged racist white supremacist groups you insist on identifying me with? Pajamas Media? Michelle Malkin? Fox News? Associated Press? Chicago Sun-Times? What are these groups that are fueling your rage and your anti-intellectual tirades? Now if you are going to suggest that any of the sites I have mentioned fit your criteria, then all that can be said is that there are medications that can help with such a condition.

    entop’s reply:
    travelah, google kkk and you will find all of the intellectual compatriots that you need. I’m not going to do your homework for you.

    I think it’s pretty clear that your commentary on the board is the equivalent of a McCarthyism fraud.

    On to other matters, it seems McCain might have a good shot at pulling in a substantial portion of the gay vote.

  73. Jim Shura

    Entop,

    This is all I have left: Just read this thread over again. Travelah didn’t say anything like that here and unless someone reads every post every day they are going to have no clue what you are talking about. It makes you sound disoriented and you will not get anyone to think about anything productive. Not your goal? Just wanna fight? Child abuse is funny? Fine. These blogs are a largely unmoderated free-for-all where we are allowed to expose our craziest assertions to our neighbors. But these are our NEIGHBORS and this is our community, not some random OT forum with no geographical specificity.

    Now, in your favor, an equally mystified Ms. Yuck was digging around in the older threads this morning and may have found the Travelah post to which you were referring, but she also found other posts by you that were rather difficult to make sense of because there was truly no context for them.

    Hunter S Thompson. The man was undeniably insane and I don’t think anyone is going to be reading him in 50 years. I think years of nightly combat footage during dinner and millions of Vietnamese are what ended the war and I think Upton Sinclair is a better model of how to proceed if you want to have an effect.

    So Entop, carry on, I wish you well, I’ll PM you for a beer if Obama wins.

  74. Jim Shura

    William,

    OK, so Chicago is not the best example to use with you unless I want to beat my head against a wall of 143 year-old scar tissue.

    I’m still curious about why one city up north is worse than one city down here.

    I’ve seen great and rotten things everywhere I’ve lived-Chicago, San Salvador, DC, Raleigh, Asheville and God just seems content to be his usual mysterious self no matter where I am.

  75. William P Miller

    True enough Mr Yuck. There is good and bad everywhere. However, I have found that different parts of the country have different local cultures. Chicago and NYC, for instance, tend to have cultures that are the opposite of the Southern culture. In Chicago and NYC most everyone is in a hurry, people rarely smile and say hello to strangers, and a general obnoxiousness is common. Now here in North Carolina, strangers smile and say hello. Neighbors help one another. Church, family, community are important here. Exceptions can be found of course, as Chi-NYC has them as well.

    Hunter S Thompson was a raving alcoholic-drug addict who loved to run this country down. He committed suicide by shooting himself in the head. A cowardly act and perhaps a fitting end to a life mis-spent.

  76. entopticon

    Mr Yuck, you don’t have to look beyond this thread to see travelah defending torturing human beings, and frankly I think you add to the problem by dignifying travelah’s despicable argument with polite chit-chat as if it’s a reasonable thing to be arguing for the merits of torturing human beings.

    Once again, I think your polite chitchat approach to things such as a conversation on the merits of torture makes such policies socially acceptable as if it was just a casual disagreement. Some of that blood is on the hands of people who treat it like an acceptable argument to even be making.

    I have received a lot of support from people who have been really appreciative of my posts here, so if you aren’t a fan that is just too bad i suppose. For what it’s worth, Mrs entopticon really loves my posts.

    Yes, when I write posts to travelah they may refer to other threads at times so readers may not have the full context. So be it. There is not just a post or two of travelah white supremacist rhetoric about black nationalist conspiracies and Marxist takeovers etc, there are dozens if not hundreds.

    As far as the gonzo journalists go, I think we are definitely going to have to agree to disagree about that. I am absolutely certain they had a huge motivational effect on countless people, but that is not something that is easily measured except for the sheer popularity of their works.

    Why don’t you try just concerning yourself with your own arguments rather than the tone of mine? If you don’t like my tone, that’s what the scroll bar is for.

    You may think my sense of humor is twisted, but as far as I am concerned, for you to express more concern about my tone than the arguments for the merits of torturing real human beings on this thread makes you the severely twisted one.

  77. entopticon

    The book that William P Miller keeps pushing here, The Real Lincoln, was written by Thomas DiLorenzo, an infamous member of and propagandist for a theocratic white supremacist hate group called the League of the South. DiLorenzo doesn’t even have a history degree and his quasi-scholarship is considered to be nothing more than a disturbed, racist joke by serious historians.

    It is not just my opinion that the League of the South is a despicable racist hate group, they have been classified as such by the Southern Poverty Law Center since the year 2000. Here is a link for more info:
    http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=250

    This is incontrovertible proof of white supremacist hate rhetoric being disseminated right here on this thread, and yet Mr Yuck wants me to have a polite conversation about such disgraceful bile. Polite conversations are what normalized such despicable rhetoric so that it was socially acceptable in the first place. I’ll keep ranting where ranting is the appropriate response.

  78. quotequeen

    If jesus were here, I would turn him out and make him my beeeach.

    Snoop Dog

  79. Dionysis

    Look, it’s the Smear Master again, diverting with all his might:

    “Bush pledged to slash projected gasoline use by 20 percent over a decade, said he would gradually raise auto-fuel economy standards, and ordered big increases in ethanol production and use of alternative fuels…

    The president’s evolving energy approach has its limits, though activism seems to be the new byword. The centerpiece is support for ethanol, a corn-based fuel additive that’s popular among farm-belt lawmakers. Though environmentalists say it’s not terribly clean or efficient, Bush had mandated 35 billion gallons of ethanol use by 2017 — a fivefold increase over the current 2012 target.

    Bush also called for more investment in ethanol distilled from corn and its “cellulosic” offshoot made from wood chips, grasses and agricultural waste, giving a presidential push to a technology that hasn’t produced a breakthrough to date.

    As Bush talked up ethanol, investors made their bets based on the anticipated rise in government intervention. Corn prices at the Chicago Board of Trade rose 1.2 percent the day of the presidential speech. Shares of Decatur, Illinois-based Archer- Daniels-Midland Co. — the biggest U.S. ethanol maker — rose 2.6 percent…

    “President Bush’s determination to ram ethanol down the market’s throat is virtually unprecedented in the history of energy politics,” said Jerry Taylor, senior fellow at the Cato Institute in Washington, a group that espouses limited government. The administration’s approach has a “Stalinist touch associated with mandating consumption regardless of price or consumer preference,” he said…”

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aFxsuYqZ_V.8&refer=us

    And later, boys and girls, we’ll focus on the effects of the ‘Enron Loophole’ on your wallet, and the McSame brain-trust that engineered this disaster, and the well-documented efforts at protecting this revenue stream for the energy companies.

    Now watch the trolls try and hijack the thread and divert attention.

  80. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    First let me say Travelah is a moron, good, that being said lets talk about Susan’s comments.

    The Military under the direction of Fema/ Homeland insecurity, used the Katrina project as a test ground for the implementation of Marshall Law. The door-to-door confiscation of firearms and the complete Federal take over of the New Orleans area, were appalling and is indeed, a precursor of what will be coming shortly to the U.S., once the economy collapses, or the boys stage another 911 fairy tale, in a false flag operation.

    One of the most American things that did occur during the Katrina exercise, was that local parish sheriffs,who threw the FEDS out of their jurisdictions. This brave act, by the sheriffs, shows me, that their still are men out there that understand the severe limitations of power the FEDS really have, inspite of the 70 plus years of Federal Control, occupation and brain washing of the American Sheepole

    FDR created a new deal all right, he created a new form of government, with interlocking public trusts set up as agency’s, operating under the law of administrative procedures, instead of the constitutional rule of law, he did all this, after he seized all the nation’s gold, in the biggest bank heist of all time.

    The articles of impeachment now in the house, have received virtually no exposure, over the propaganda disseminating corporate news networks, that morons like Travelah, get their daily reality fix from.

    Would the founding fathers have impeached BUSH?
    I don’t think so. I do not think if the fathers ran the show, there would have ever been a village idiot/ Alfred E Newman dictator running a constitutional republic. This tyrant via the patriot acts, which uncannily mirror Hitler’s enabling acts, has unleashed the new SS on us all, with names like the F.B.I. and Homeland Security, I.R.S. etc

    The articles of impeachment against this tyrant are the best things to come down the pike in a long time.
    Please read them, here is the link http://chun.afterdowningstreet.org.nyud.net:8080/amomentoftruth.pdf

  81. William P Miller

    WRONG Mr e. “The Real Lincoln”‘s author is a full tenured professor of history at the University of Maryland. On Amazon.com, there are 292 reviews. Almost all favorable. Here is one:

    “This book is a must have. It makes a clear case that Abraham Lincoln was the motivating factor for the Civil War because of the obtuse way he had of dealing with the south. He raised unreasonable tariffs that caused the south to rebel. He was also a racist and a dictator. He did not stretch the constitution he clearly disregarded it. He paved the way for all kinds of abuse of the constitution by not allowing the south to succeed and was the cause of millions of people’s deaths. A murderer, dictator, racist, was the man most regard as the best president ever due to our biased public education system.” – Bierman776

    Mr e, I am not surprised that you do not wish to actually research the facts on this. Don’t bother you will truthful details, you have your ignorant prejudices and you’ll stick with them. -:)

    Abraham Lincoln did not go to war against the CSA because of slavery. He went to war because we refused to pay him 50% taxes on our exports to Europe. In fact, surprising enough to many, Lincoln was himself a white supremacist racist. He was also a war criminal who purposely targeted Southern women and children in the last year of the war. Many a farm was sacked, the ladies raped, then the farms and cities were burned to the ground. In order to “break the back” of the South. When Lincoln demanded the Union Army band play “Dixie”, claiming it was his now, John Boothe had had enough. Besides his friends and relatives were victims of Lincoln’s treachery. Subsequently, John Boothe avenged the South’s 20,000 women and children who were murdered, and executed the perpetrator, Abe Lincoln, the war criminal.

  82. Dionysis

    Wow, talk about diverting from the topic. Look at all the words generated about the Civil War.
    This is the kind of irrelevant diversion that should be ignored in favor of the actual topic at hand.

  83. travelah

    Dionysis, George Bush is not running for President and your commentary had nothing to do my post regarding Obama’s cozy relationship with the ethanol industry, an industry that is causing personal agony and economic ruin around the globe. The point is that there isn’t much difference between the special intersts of GWB and those of Obama, the supposed “change” candidate.

  84. Dionysis

    “Dionysis, George Bush is not running for President…”

    Bush, McCain…no significant difference. Your post read as if it the issues surrounding ethanol were the sole purview of Obama and his merry band of communist agitators. If you’re going to engage in your typical smear campaign (all you have, really) then don’t forget to credit little Georgie pooh for setting the whole thing off.

  85. entopticon

    WRONG William P Hategroup! Do you just go out of your way to make yourself look like as big of a hypocrite as humanly possible? If so, job well done. It is a little surreal how cartoonishly exaggerated your hypocrisy is.

    It is absolutely hilarious that you would say that I am not the one who has researched the facts on this when you are incontrovertibly wrong. DiLorenzo is not a historian. He is an economics Professor at Loyola University in Maryland. He has been an economics professor there since 1992. He has an economics degree from Virginia Polytech. You can’t teach history when you don’t even have a degree in history. Those are the facts.

    It is also a fact that he is a prominent member of the white supremacist hate group, the League of the South. He isn’t even just a casual member, he works for the League of the south Institute. Do some homework next time before just spreading wacko reconstructive historical theories from known white supremacist hate groups.

    It is an absolute riot that you used an Amazon.com customer as your supposed proof. I provided incontrovertible proof on the true nature of DiLorenzo’s white supremacist hate group in the above link. Did you even bother to read the above link on his hate group? The even have a section specifically on DiLorenzo on the site, exposing him for what he really is.

    It is astronomically, astonishingly, hilariously, bizarrely insane that you rant about my lack of patriotism while you celebrate the assassination of a United States President. You are the single most hypocritical person I have ever encountered.

  86. William P Miller

    WRONG Mr e. And there you go against projecting your own hatred. But you did describe the reason why your knee-jerk “history” is so wrong. You don’t have a gegree in history. Besides, history is written by the victors. Most history is riddled with omissions, selective spotlights, and outright lies. Case in point? The horrible genocidal crimes committed by your yankee ancestors on the Native Americans. And you still proudly wave that racist flag don’t you? You know, ‘old glory’.

    If you think the War of Northern Aggression was fought over slavery, PROVE IT. Show me a document where the war criminal Lincoln demands that the CSA release slaves or he’ll invade. The facts are just as I have laid them out previously. Oh, and The Real Lincoln has an extensive bibliography, if you’d like to do your own research. Now, crawl back under your bridge and keep Big e company. -:)

  87. entopticon

    travelah, you are just too funny. Do you really think it is possible to exist in American politics without being connected in some way to people who are pro-ethanol etc etc etc? Have you even bothered to look into McCain’s connections in the energy industry? Like freakin’ Enron?

    Your desperation is an absolute riot. It is absolutely outlandish that you seem to be completely incapable of grasping the people in glasses shouldn’t throw stones metaphor.

    Carl Pope, the executive of the country’s largest environmental group, the Sierra Club, recently said that Obama has the “strongest set of positions that any candidate has ever offered” on the environment.

    And you want to put Obama’s environmental record up against McCain’s? That is just too damned funny. The Sierra Club endorsed Obama because of his admirable record on the environment. As they said, the strongest ever. They have been extremely critical of McCain’s environmental record, particularly his recent flip-flop on environmental issues.

    It is almost like some sort of obsessive compulsive disorder, how you constantly start arguments that you can’t possibly win because the facts are overwhelmingly against you from the start, and yet you do it again, and again, and again, and again. Digging yourself deeper into complete absurdity every time.

    Don’t you want to apologize for your good buddy, William P Miller calling the assassination of a US President an assassination? Don’t you want to put those apologist skills to defending his reconstructive history from a well documented white supremacist hate group?

    Here’s another metaphor for you, this one straight from the bard:

    “He who lies down with dogs, shall rise up with fleas.”

  88. William P Miller

    Mr e, by the way, the Chairman of ENRON, Lay, sat on Mrs John F Kerry’s charity board. So there is plenty of graft to go around. -:) Now get back under your troll bridge before the sun makes you any more addled.

  89. entopticon

    WRONG? What the duck are you talking about WRONG?

    I proved my point with incontrovertible facts you ridiculous goof. I was right. You were wrong. there is no argument. DiLorenzo was never a tenured history Professor in MD as you falsely claimed. Even he doesn’t make that claim.

    You are right, I am not a trained historian, and neither are you, and neither is DiLorenzo. I am sure as heck not going to take the time to go through white supremacist hate group literature and refute it point by point. It has a biography so it must be true? You are like a frickin’ cartoon character.

    Answer this question: do you really think we should be getting our history from propagandists from white supremacist hate groups? I didn’t just make up the fact that DiLorenzo’s organization is a racist hate group, the leading watchdog organization, which maps the development and organization of hate groups in the nation did.

    For the record, I don’t proudly wave old glory. Although not a Christian myself, like many early Christians I view flags as a form of idolatry. I would never swear an oath to a flag. Flags are completely idiotic, as are your arguments here.

  90. Dionysis

    “Mr e, by the way, the Chairman of ENRON, Lay, sat on Mrs John F Kerry’s charity board. So there is plenty of graft to go around. -:)”

    Huh? Ken “Kenny Boy” Lay served on a voluntary charity board with MRS. KERRY? And this constitutes “graft?” Please be so kind as to show one shred, one iota, of even the suggestion that Bush pal and white collar criminal extraordinaire Ken Lay was engaged in graft with Mrs. Kerry. Please provide even the feeblest such substantiation. Anything at all. Otherwise, your post in nothing but a hollow and facile effort to engender some notion of ‘guilt by association’. Prove me wrong. Demonstrate a connection, provide a source (even if it’s a Klan publication).

  91. travelah

    Do you really think it is possible to exist in American politics without being connected in some way to people who are pro-ethanol etc etc etc?

    When a politician campaigns on a theme of change and in reality he is just as beholden to big business interests as any other crooked Chicago politician, something is smelly about the entire package. He is an ardent supporter of those business interests who are destroying the Gulf of Mexico with high concentrations of nitrogen and is enmeshed with those who are causing spiraling food prices and shortages throughout the third world. Obama is connected far more closely than in “just some way”. The NY Times article (a liberal bastion of biased Democrat news) demonstrates this quite clearly.

  92. entopticon

    I read the NY Times article before you mentioned it travelah. Your hypocrisy is absolutely mindblowing. You are the one always saying that Obama is out of touch with middle America, but you are the one that wants to destroy the economy of the working class there, which is exactly what would happen without any ethanol.

    You also cal yourself a Libertarian, which is an outright bizarre thing to do considering that you are apparently against one of the most important factors in our independence of foreign oil.

    The fact is your argument is a cartoonish caricature of the complicated ethanol question. The economy of those middle states you are fond of would be absolutely crushed if you got your way. They would literally be devastated.

    Another problem is that your arguments about food shortages are conflating biofuel issues in southeast Asia with the US. In SE Asia European and African markets are buying biofuels, which are displacing food crops that the indigenous people depend on to survive. It’s a very serious issue. The thing is, ethanol is generally made from corn, not inedible palms, and Iowans are not dependent on it for their survival.

    Are biofuels a complicated issue? Yes they are. One that Obama navigates very well. As i said above, the country’s largest environmental organization said his platforms are the best of any candidate in history.

    And that’s where you run into a problem, because John McCain’s environmental platforms…. not so good. In fact, the Sierra Club is now running anti McCain ads because of his atrocious policies. For you, a McCain supporter, to try to attack Obama on environmental issues is just too freaking hilarious.

    You have no leg to stand on travelah. Your desperate swipes are akin to the black Knight in Monty Python’s Holy Grail, after his arms and legs were cut off, but he just kept talking smack. It is very entertaining, so please do keep it up. And you can have your chum with the white supremacist book that he is always touting chime right in as usual.

    Of course, you completely ignored the mountain of evidence that McCain is neck deep in lobbyists because you have no defense against the truth except diversion with the same old smokescreens. It’s an endless source of amusement, so keep up the good work.

  93. William P Miller

    Mr e, in your world, a “trained” historian is one who has been brainwashed by the dominant propaganda of the region…in your case being the Northeastern yankeeland of the USA. Anyone of intellectual curiosity can research and find the truth. The Real Lincoln proves that. Look at the bibliography. It is a scholarly work. Just because it is contrary to your yankee brainwashing does not make it “wrong”. If you are a Master’s degreed graduate, you should have the intellectual acumen to appreciate this.

    God bless sweet Dixieland. You are here now, embrace the local culture or go back to your homeland.

  94. entopticon

    This is Asheville Wiliam P Miller, so I hope you are embracing the local culture. If not, you can start by getting your nipples pierced, and a tribal tattoo on your forehead might be just the right thing for you. Really, venture out. Explore. Try dating someone that you aren’t related to for a change. It will be good for you.

    Wahoo! Who wants historians to be edumacated when we can read books by white supremacists like Thomas DiLorenzo from the League of the South. Yahoo! Hee-haw! Edumacation is for yankee sissies! Yippee Ki-Yay muther cluckers!

    Stop the yankee brainwashers and their evil brainwashing rays from outer space! Hee-haw!

  95. William P Miller

    Mr e, this Asheville, and us locals have always been welcoming and tolerant. Pretty good for a bunch of fundamentalist Baptists, huh? We even endure the rantings of yankee transplants with addled minds who hate us and our culture. Are your ears burning Mr e? -:) Now you have a blessed day. And remember to thank the Lord that you live in God’s Country, the South!

  96. Dionysis

    So Mr. Miller ignores my challenge to prove his smear-by-innuendo. That was expected. Now, as far as this goes: “We even endure the rantings of yankee transplants…” Too bad that pesky First Amendment requires one to ‘endure’ others’ viewpoints.

    And as for this: “God’s Country, the South!”

    If you believe in God, then it follows that everything he/she/it supposedly ‘created’ would be ‘God’s country.’

    And all of this stuff about ‘Southern culture’…as someone born and raised in the South (including many, many years in the Capitol of the Confederacy), I’ve yet to figure out what this means, beyond geographical and topographical differences, an agrarian economy vs. an industrial economy and slavery. What’s left, RC Colas and Moon Pies?

  97. Ken Hanke

    What’s left, RC Colas and Moon Pies?

    Nonsense, it’s all about Cheerwine and liver mush.

    And, by the way, a bibliography is merely a list of works referred to in the writing of a book. Unless we’re talking about footnotes and actual citations, it doesn’t mean all that much.

  98. travelah

    but you are the one that wants to destroy the economy of the working class there, which is exactly what would happen without any ethanol.
    The working class of the midwest was not in a destroyed state prior to the push on moving corn production to ethanol nor will it be when wiser minds prevail and food grains return to being food grains. Corn based ethanol cannot be an important factor in moving towards energy independance. Corn is not an efficient energy source compared to sugar cane which can be grown with far less environmental and foodstock impacts as well as provide a much higher energy source for fuel. Obama hooked himself to these ethanol interests because corn is a major crop in Illinois as well as it also provided a platform to boost his numbers in Iowa. In other words, it is the same old same old all over again. Another crooked politician beholden to big business interests.

    The economy of those middle states you are fond of would be absolutely crushed if you got your way.
    Since the economies in the midwestern states were not absolutely crushed before the rush to shift corn crops away from global foodstocks, there is no basis for suggesting that the midwestern economies are dependent on the inefficient production of corn based ethanol.

    No matter how the spin is attempted, Obama is a big business stooge campaigning as a candidate opposed to the very creature he represents. Big energy companies are driving his agenda and giving cause to major pollution throughout the Miss. river watershed and the Gulf. The push to foodstock based ethanol is having a huge impact on the third world. In order to gain votes from “corn country”, Obama is more than willing to have a giant dead zone sititng in the Gulf and millions of souls adversely impacted by incredible food inflation and shortages. We can see where his priorities are.

  99. Dionysis

    “Nonsense, it’s all about Cheerwine and liver mush.”

    I stand corrected. Now, everytime I see the Rebel Battle Flag on a vehicle (usually mistakenly called the Confederate Flag), I’ll think of these culinary delights. I mean, RC Cola and Moon Pies are so 1950s.

  100. tatuaje

    Susan, the majority of people living in south Louisiana at the time understand that the President of the US does not shoulder the blame for the damage done by hurricane Katrina. Being one of those people living there at the time, I know there was a great deal of blame to go around to a lot of people. The principle people to point fingers at are not Bush and Cheney but Blanco, Nagin and Brown.

    Holy duck! You are really, seriously, speaking for the majority of the people in southern Louisiana?!?!? You never cease to amaze me.I have been to New Orleans over 10 times since the storm, to build houses, visit friends, and film a documentary, and the significant majority of people I have talked to blame the federal government. Here’s a great time-line of what actually went down:http://www.salon.com/books/excerpt/2008/06/06/rove_katrina/index.html

    entop, you knucklehead, those of us living there did not anticipate the failure.

    well, yes, you are actually right (for once). The people of New Orleans, for the most part, didn’t anticipate the end result. But the Feds did.
    “In the 48 hours before Hurricane Katrina hit, the White House received detailed warnings about the storm’s likely impact, including eerily prescient predictions of breached levees, massive flooding, and major losses of life and property, documents show.” Check the rest out here:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/23/AR2006012301711.html

    Once again travelah, you don’t have a leg to stand on. Just because you were there doesn’t make you right. I know a lot of people who were there who COMPLETELY disagree with you.

    Oh, and Ken, I warn you now…debating ol’ William P. Miller is like debating a 6 year old with Tourette’s Syndrome…

  101. Ken Hanke

    achh…my attempt at HTML hath failed miserably….

    Your second b needs a forward slash in front of it.

  102. entopticon

    travelah, are you in a contest with William P Miller to be the silliest hypocrite on the planet? If so, I’m sorry to tell you that he is winning, but don’t let that get you down because you really are doing a stellar job.

    So now Obama is a communist big business stooge. Are you trying to slowly kill me with laughter? You know how global corporations just love their communists. It’s an evil plan, but it just might work.

    Aside from the humorously bizarre absurdity of that notion, it is really hilarious how so many times in the past you have referred to the working people in the middle of the country as the “real” America. Are you really that outlandishly, profoundly out of touch with middle America that you actually believe what you are saying? Do you seriously think the people working the farms of Iowa and Nebraska would be for what you are advocating? You think they like McCain’s plan to flood the market with Brazilian ethanol from people who make slave wages by lifting tarrifs? What does someone have to do to get as removed from reality as you are?

    I love how you are trying to slam Obama as anti-environmental, but you conveniently ignore the fact that the largest environmental organization in the country says that he has the best environmental platforms of any candidate in the history of our nation. I also love how you choose to ignore the fact that the nation’s leading environmental organization has been running ads condemning McCain’s platforms because they are so phenomenally egregious.

    You can take the right-wing extremist, Rush Limbaugh position that environmentalism is a liberal conspiracy made up by communist hippies, but if you are going to recognize the legitimacy of environmental issues, there is no imaginably rational way for you to argue that McCain has better positions on the environment. Of course, you have never let anything so trivial as facts and reality stand in your way before, so I expect that won’t start deterring you now.

    I know, I know, reality is a gay black communist plot perpetrated by Islamic aliens from another galaxy, yada-yada-yada. Watch out for those black communist politicians that are in the pocket of global corporations travelah. They may be hiding in your closet and there is a rumor they want to destroy Christmas.

  103. William P Miller

    Ken says: “And, by the way, a bibliography is merely a list of works referred to in the writing of a book. Unless we’re talking about footnotes and actual citations, it doesn’t mean all that much.”

    The Real Lincoln is a well researched scholarly work, replete with an extensive bibliography. I challenge any of you believer’s of yankee lies about the War to PROVE your points. Show me an indisputable resource that says the war criminal Lincoln gave an ultimatum to the South to free their slaves. He never did. And in fact, the new governor of the territory of Kansas declared that his state’s slaves be freed. Lincoln contacted him and told him NOT to free them. This is 1860, no less.

    Oh, and by the way, the Confederate Battle flag was just one of many. It was flown by General Robert E Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia, and that is most likely it is the symbol of the Confederate States of America, and the South. If Dionysis thinks it is a “rebel” flag, then following his logic one would have to say the union flag would be thought of as a rebel flag by Great Britain. -:)
    I see I made some of you actually look at the book by purposely saying the author was from U of Maryland rather than Loyola. -:) Here is a review of the book by the esteemed professor, Walter E Williams, an African American black man:

    “In 1831, long before the War between the States, South Carolina Senator John C. Calhoun said, “Stripped of all its covering, the naked question is, whether ours is a federal or consolidated government; a constitutional or absolute one; a government resting solidly on the basis of the sovereignty of the States, or on the unrestrained will of a majority; a form of government, as in all other unlimited ones, in which injustice, violence, and force must ultimately prevail.” The War between the States answered that question and produced the foundation for the kind of government we have today: consolidated and absolute, based on the unrestrained will of the majority, with force, threats, and intimidation being the order of the day.

    Today’s federal government is considerably at odds with that envisioned by the framers of the Constitution. Thomas J. DiLorenzo gives an account of how this came about in The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War.

    As DiLorenzo documents – contrary to conventional wisdom, books about Lincoln, and the lessons taught in schools and colleges – the War between the States was not fought to end slavery; Even if it were, a natural question arises: Why was a costly war fought to end it? African slavery existed in many parts of the Western world, but it did not take warfare to end it. Dozens of countries, including the territorial possessions of the British, French, Portuguese, and Spanish, ended slavery peacefully during the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Countries such as Venezuela and Colombia experienced conflict because slave emancipation was simply a ruse for revolutionaries who were seeking state power and were not motivated by emancipation per se.

    Abraham Lincoln’s direct statements indicated his support for slavery; He defended slave owners’ right to own their property, saying that “when they remind us of their constitutional rights [to own slaves], I acknowledge them, not grudgingly but fully and fairly; and I would give them any legislation for the claiming of their fugitives” (in indicating support for the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850).

    Abraham Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation was little more than a political gimmick, and he admitted so in a letter to Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase: “The original proclamation has no…legal justification, except as a military measure.” Secretary of State William Seward said, “We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free. ” Seward was acknowledging the fact that the Emancipation Proclamation applied only to slaves in states in rebellion against the United States and not to slaves in states not in rebellion.

    The true costs of the War between the States were not the 620,000 battlefield-related deaths, out of a national population of 30 million (were we to control for population growth, that would be equivalent to roughly 5 million battlefield deaths today). The true costs were a change in the character of our government into one feared by the likes of Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Jackson, and Calhoun – one where states lost most of their sovereignty to the central government. Thomas Jefferson saw as the most important safeguard of the liberties of the people “the support of the state governments in all their rights, as the most competent administrations for our domestic concerns and the surest bulwarks against anti-republican tendencies.”

    If the federal government makes encroachments on the constitutional rights of the people and the states, what are their options? In a word, their right to secede. Most of today’s Americans believe, as did Abraham Lincoln, that states do not have a right to secession, but that is false. DiLorenzo marshals numerous proofs that from the very founding of our nation the right of secession was seen as a natural right of the people and a last check on abuse by the central government. For example, at Virginia’s ratification convention, the delegates affirmed “that the powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to injury or oppression.” In Thomas Jefferson’s First Inaugural Address (1801), he declared, “If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.” Jefferson was defending the rights of free speech and of secession. Alexis de Tocqueville observed in Democracy in America, “The Union was formed by the voluntary agreement of the States; in uniting together they have not forfeited their nationality, nor have they been reduced to the condition of one and the same people. If one of the states chooses to withdraw from the compact, it would be difficult to disapprove its right of doing so, and the Federal Government would have no means of maintaining its claims directly either by force or right.” The right to secession was popularly held as well. DiLorenzo lists newspaper after newspaper editorial arguing the right of secession. Most significantly, these were Northern newspapers. In fact, the first secession movement started in the North, long before shots were fired at Fort Sumter. The New England states debated the idea of secession during the Hartford Convention of 1814–1815.

    Lincoln’s intentions, as well as those of many Northern politicians, were summarized by Stephen Douglas during the senatorial debates. Douglas accused Lincoln of wanting to “impose on the nation a uniformity of local laws and institutions and a moral homogeneity dictated by the central government” that would “place at defiance the intentions of the republic’s founders.” Douglas was right, and Lincoln’s vision for our nation has now been accomplished beyond anything he could have possibly dreamed.

    The War between the States settled by force whether states could secede. Once it was established that states cannot secede, the federal government, abetted by a Supreme Court unwilling to hold it to its constitutional restraints, was able to run amok over states’ rights, so much so that the protections of the Ninth and Tenth Amendments mean little or nothing today. Not only did the war lay the foundation for eventual nullification or weakening of basic constitutional protections against central government abuses, but it also laid to rest the great principle enunciated in the Declaration of Independence that ‘Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.’

    The Real Lincoln contains irrefutable evidence that a more appropriate title for Abraham Lincoln is not the Great Emancipator, but the Great Centralizer.”

    Walter E. Williams is the John M. Olin distinguished professor of economics at George Mason University, and a nationally syndicated columnist.

  104. William P Miller

    Dionysis says “Huh? Ken “Kenny Boy” Lay served on a voluntary charity board with MRS. KERRY? And this constitutes “graft?” Please be so kind as to show one shred, one iota, of even the suggestion that Bush pal and white collar criminal extraordinaire Ken Lay was engaged in graft with Mrs. Kerry. Please provide even the feeblest such substantiation. Anything at all. Otherwise, your post in nothing but a hollow and facile effort to engender some notion of ‘guilt by association’. Prove me wrong. Demonstrate a connection, provide a source (even if it’s a Klan publication).”

    Lord man, don’t have any sense of proportion? I am talking about the “guilt by association” that mind number liberal have tried to hang on President Bush because Lay and ENRON are in Texas. How’s this? http://track-em-down.com/teresa.html.

    As far as the Ku Klux Klan, I have never read any of their publications. You sound familiar with them though. And you say you are from Charleston and born and raised in the South? You certainly don’t sound like it, with your ignorant views on the Old South and Southern history. Where did you go to college? U of Mass?

    South Carolina public schools teach the truth about the War of Northern Aggression. Were you asleep during state history class? -:)

  105. Dionysis

    “I am talking about the “guilt by association” that mind number liberal have tried”

    A non-answer. Yawn. By the way, what’s a “mind number liberal?”

    “As far as the Ku Klux Klan, I have never read any of their publications.”

    Hard to believe, General Lee. Have you ever written a guest column?

    “And you say you are from Charleston and born and raised in the South?”

    I never ‘said’ I was from Charleston. I wrote “the Capitol of the Confederacy.” That would be Virginia, and in particular, Richmond (did YOU fall asleep in history class?).

    ” You certainly don’t sound like it, with your ignorant views on the Old South and Southern history

    Really? What specifically is an “ignorant view?” Was it because I left out Mint Julipes and lynching as part of ‘Southern culture’?

    “Where did you go to college? U of Mass?”

    No, actually it was U.Va. in Charlottesville. Where did you go? Clown College?

    “South Carolina public schools teach the truth about the War of Northern Aggression.”

    I wouldn’t know about what passes for ‘education’ in that backward state. I do have a sense, however. I have a brother who has lived there since 1979; he’s a high-school dropout, is an avowed racist, yaps about ‘Southern culture’ all the time and, like you, can’t begin to really identify it when challenged. He usually gets mad and storms off, cussing with each step.

    “Were you asleep during state history class?”

    Nope, never slept in class, and usually made straight ‘A’s. But, as shown above, it appears you must have dozed a good bit.

  106. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Professor Willams
    Historical asseratations are spot on.
    1. The Emancipation proclamation only to applied to slaves in states who acquiesced to the Union demands
    2, Lincoln was actually the great en slaver as he suspending Habeaus Corpus and imprisoned 150,000 of his own people and union officials
    3, As late as 1862 Lincoln stated the object of the War was not to destroy the institution of slavery or the customs of the South, Lincoln was actually pro slavery and passed legislation such as the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850.
    Summary
    The American people being the incredibly stupid people they are, actually idolize the very three presidents that did more to destroy States rights and sovereignty than any others. FDR Lincoln, Truman.
    The secretary of state of North Carolina Elaine Marshall, answered a question I addressed to her in writing,
    The question was Define North Carolina
    Her answer says it all “North Carolina is a insular federal procession and a political sub jurisdiction of the U.S. domiciled in Washington D.C.
    The stupid U.S. sheep dont realize that states died in 1865 North Carolinas lawful republic surrendered to the Yankee insurgents in 1865.THERE ARE NO MORE STATES ONLY FEDERAL TERRITORIES WITH U.S.CITIZENS DOMICLILED IN WASHINGTON D.C.
    U.S CITIZENS HAVE NO RIGHTS AS PER VALENTINE VS US

  107. bluegrassbrad

    I myself was born and raised in western North Carolina. My family has roots going back to the original scotch pioneers who helped to settle WNC. My minor in college was history. I take great pride in my southern heritage and have studied my history and the history of the region that has held my family quite extensively. One thing most anyone who has studied NC history will tell you is that the mountains of NC were extremely reluctant to support the confederacy during the civil war. And many continued to support the union long after North Carolina seceded. They considered it a rich mans war, a war for the big plantations in the piedmont and flatlands. They had no stake in it what-so-ever. Mountain folks were extremely independent, and most had no slaves. North Carolina was also the last state to secede from the union, only doing so after they were called upon to help attack South Carolina. The mountain people of western North Carolina disliked both yankee and confederate armies who moved through the area frequently, as both armies raided and destroyed farms. And while the flatlands of North Carolina sent many brave men off to war (about 125,000 or so) very few came from the mountain areas. the Confederate army tried to conscript soldiers from the area, but their efforts were often ended by desertion, which was rampant among men taken from western North Carolina. These men would fight bravely to save their own homes and family, but did not see the justice in the war and many refused to fight in it. This is just the way it was, and it is factual.

  108. entopticon

    William P Miller, can you even name one remotely compelling reason why we should trust a a book by a known member of a white-supremacist hate group who doesn’t even have a degree in history?

    The fact is, there is no conceivable reason for taking the book that you keep pushing seriously and that fact that you keep pushing a book by a known member of a white supremacist hate group negates any possibility of you having even the remotest credibility.

    For an alternative perspective to your white-suremacist theocratic garbage, , try reading a book on Lincoln by an actual historian, with an actual degree in history, who isn’t a white-supremacist lunatic.

  109. travelah

    …it is really hilarious how so many times in the past you have referred to the working people in the middle of the country as the “real” America. Are you really that outlandishly, profoundly out of touch with middle America that you actually believe what you are saying? Do you seriously think the people working the farms of Iowa and Nebraska would be for what you are advocating?

    The people growing corn in Iowa and Illinois are producing a product that is a food grain and has a dramatic effect on the entire world’s “bread basket”. They have been doing it for generations and they will continue. It is certain that the farmers growing corn, including the multinationals, are quite pleased with the inflated prices of today’s corn futures. What is equally certain is that the people buying bread and cereals in Asheville, Bangor, Detroit and Dubuque, Iowa are not happy with greatly inflated prices for everything made of grain in this country. While a relatively small number of people prosper in this highly inflated situation, the rest of us and the rest of the world are facing an inflationary environment, of which the ethanol corn based industry is a principle cause.
    Obama seems intent on stating whatever soothes the mindless audience he is appealing to whether it is anti-drilling crowds in California and Florida or agribusiness interests in Illinois and Iowa who do not have this country’s interests at heart. Contrary to the Obammunist myth, most working people in Iowa, Illinois and Nebraska are not growing corn. Instead they are paying ever higher prices for grain products while their fellows to the south face a Gulf of Mexico that is dying form the levels of nitrogen run-off pouring in at ever-alarming rates.
    The Obammunist speaks whatever soothes the village idiot who swallows the absurd notion that Barack Hussein Obama is a candidate of change.

  110. travelah

    …the largest environmental organization in the country says that he (Obama)has the best environmental platforms of any candidate in the history of our nation.

    Perhaps these “stellar” observers need to consider how deep in bed Obama is with agribusiness interests whose extensive use of chemical fertilizers is having a serious impact on Gulf fisheries. Perhaps they need to examine how he supports the diversion of necessary food grains for a grossly inefficient use as a fuel source. Perhaps it is an opportunity for them to examine the adverse effects of ill-thought “environmental” measures such as pushing strongly for ethanol fuel expansions. In fact these same “stellar” observers are part of the same crowd who foisted these insane programs upon us.
    Given their whole-hearted support for ethanol in hopes of avoiding “carbon” while ignoring the environmental impacts of their foolish ideas, I do not see that the “largest environmental group in the country” has much credibility if any at all.
    Now, let’s see some more Obammunist double-speak.

  111. Dionysis

    “This is just the way it was, and it is factual.”

    To me, this is the most interesting and informative post here, and really speaks of heritage.

  112. William P Miller

    Dr Anti…whatever. I am very impressed with you. My esteem for you has been raised exponentially. You are quite correct in your analysis here about the War of Northern Aggression, circa 1861-1865.

    Bluegrassbrad, true enough some of the mountain folk did not want to fight, somewhat. However, my relatives have been here since the 1750s and they DID FIGHT. Not for the planters, but because a blue coated army INVADED their homeland. This blue coated army killed 20,000 civilians in 1865, and purposely robbed and burned their towns, cities, and farms. WAR CRIMES. You know, during the Nazi German occupation of France, some French collaborated with the Nazis. Most folks I know considered them TRAITORS. Same-same the Southerners who sided with the union invaders. TRAITORS. Nothing to be proud of.

    God bless sweet Dixieland and her sweet memory of “days gone by, family loved and remembered”.

  113. William P Miller

    Mr e says: “William P Miller, can you even name one remotely compelling reason why we should trust a a book by a known member of a white-supremacist hate group who doesn’t even have a degree in history?”

    Mr e, Professor DiLorenzo is NOT a member of a hate group. He is a man who was curious about the lies about Lincoln, and the War of Northern Aggression, and actually investigated, in a scholarly way. You, sir, evidently are so ingrained in your prejudiced history view that you cannot investigate views objectively. Quite un-academic. Research other points of view. Your knee-jerk dogma is just plain disappointing. You say you have graduate degrees, but I wonder. But you keep on keeping on. Your ridiculous views are quite entertaining. -:)

  114. travelah

    Holy duck! You are really, seriously, speaking for the majority of the people in southern Louisiana?!?!? You never cease to amaze me.I have been to New Orleans over 10 times since the storm, to build houses, visit friends, and film a documentary, and the significant majority of people I have talked to blame the federal government.
    Speak for a majority? Of course not however I think I am in a better position to know the general thoughts of the people of south Louisiana than yourself. Now, I am sure there are plenty of people you can round up who will froth and blame boiled shrimp if it helped put a dollar in their pocket however it would be pretty hard to find a rational argument blaming George Bush for Democrat Kathleen Blanco’s failure to serve two terms as Governor of Louisiana. Equally amazing is a lack of blaming Bush for the greater damage east of New Orleans, an area that is recovering without looking for the creation of another welfare society. Amazing again is the lack of focus on the devasted areas of Cameron Parish in south west Louisiana that could arguably be claimed to have suffered equally or greater damage than that of Katrina. Where is vested interest outrage for the effects of an equally damaging hurricane just a month later?
    Ten trips down there? Somehow, I am skeptical you accomplished much. I’ve seen the groups come and go. St. Bernard and the lower wards are very much in the same state today they were in shortly after the storm and most likely will be for a generation if not longer. What N.O. needs are fewer do-gooders and a greater number of native, local committed souls willing to make a life there without looking to create another generation or two of housing project captives

  115. entopticon

    William P Miller you silly, delusional man. Did you even bother to read the link I posted? The League of the South, which DiLorenzo is not just a prominent member of, but an employee as well, is in fact categorized as a racist hate group. That is a fact. If you had bothered to read the above link you would of known that.

    Here is the link again since you seemed to have missed it.
    http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=250

    I have proven beyond question that you have been disseminating information from a particularly despicable theocratic white-supremacist hate group. If you expect to be taken seriously ever again unless you beg for forgiveness, you have another thing coming.

    You have been pushing the ideas of a history book written by a known member of a racist hate group who doesn’t even have a history degree, but you call MY views ridiculous?!? You really don’t have any conception of what a cartoonishly ignorant goofball you are, do you?

  116. entopticon

    travelah, you are like a cartoon version of a cartoon. I don’t know how you can seriously argue the things that you do. It’s like you just pluck random facts from news stories with absolutely no regard for continuity or reason.

    Do you seriously think Midwestern farmers agree with you on this? I’m sorry, but you are outlandishly delusional. John McCain is not against ethanol. The major policy difference between him and Obama is that McCain is not for farm subsidies or tariffs. For better or for worse, people in the Midwestern states OVERWHELMINGLY favor farm aid and they absolutely favor tariffs. By the way, McCain is still for ethanol, so any argument that you make is against your own candidate as well.

    Do you have even the slightest idea how absurdly delusional and naive you sound when you try to claim that Obama is a communist who is in the pockets of big business? Are you really that profoundly ignorant that you don’t even understand the ludicrous irrationality of that or is it just that you have to completely throw reason out the window since the facts are overwhelmingly against you?

    Do you really expect me or anyone in their right mind to believe that you know more about the environmental efficacy of Obama’s positions vs McCain’s than the leading environmental organization in the country? Have you even taken a few courses on environmental issues, or even one single course, in your whole life? And yet you think you know better than the nation’s leading environmental organization. And you don’t even know how ridiculous that is. Endlessly entertaining.

    Do you think it is just a coincidence that the one person who is always agreeing with you on here was caught red-handed disseminating propaganda from a white-supremacist hate group?

    Again travelah, seek out Carlton Pearson. He was once like you until he saw the light, so anything is possible. He may be the only hope for people who are as completely far gone as you are. If he could wake up to the ridiculous hypocrisy of right-wing Christianity, so can you. I mean it. Seek him out. Here is a link:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14337492/

  117. travelah

    Speaking of the Southern Poverty Law Center, they also consider a friend and associate of Barack Hussein Obama and his spiritual mentor of twenty years, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, to be a leader of a Black racist hate group. Louis Farrakan, as leader of the hate group, Nation of Islam, as been on the SPLC’ watch for years. I have not heard Obama refute his associations with this hate group yet but I am sure the Obammunists will have a spin for this as well. They also include the New Black Panther Party as a racist hate group and both of these organizations have words of praise for the man they support for President of the US.

    http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/type.jsp?DT=3

    By the way, the SPLC is a wonderful organization.

  118. entopticon

    travelah, you are such a lying sack of right-wing extremist you know what. Why do you just make things up?

    The SPLC does not list Wright as the leader of a hate group. In fact, The only references to Wright that I could find on the SPLC site aside from blogs was of them praising him for his support of gays:
    http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=755

    If Wright’s church is listed as a hate group, you show me that page you pitiful liar. If you had bothered to read something other than right-wing white supremacist garbage, you would know that Wright has literally spent decades strongly condemning the black nationalism of the Nation of Islam. In fact, that has been a well documented mission of the Trinity Church for several decades, but you wouldn’t know that because they don’t spend any time on the actual history of the church at your right-wing extremist sites, they just like to make a bunch of crap up, just like you do.

    Funny how you completely ignored the fact that the author of the book that William P Morris recommended is a member of a racist hate group. Awfully quiet about that. You know, the one that you have attacked me for criticizing on more the one occasion? Nothing at all to say about the fact that you were pushing the agenda of a known member of a white supremacist hate group, but the fact that there are black racists just sets you off on a rant now doesn’t it?

    Not surprising considering the endless pile of white-supremacist hate group rhetoric that you regularly clog these blogs with.

    I know.. Obamunists are black and communistic greedy capitalists that are out to destroy the environment with the hoax of global warming and their homosexual death rays from mars… blah-blah-blah…

    According to your favorite sci-fi book, liars go to hell travelah.

  119. Ken Hanke

    The Real Lincoln is a well researched scholarly work, replete with an extensive bibliography.

    I never said it wasn’t. I don’t know the book. What I said was that a bibliography — no matter how extensive — is proof of nothing except that the author copied down the titles, authors, etc. of those books. Unless the book offers actual notations of exactly what was used from which book and where in that book the fact (supposing of course that the author hasn’t merely repeated a mistake — something that happens far oftener than you probably think) can be found, it’s just a list of books that the author claims to have read and used information from in his book.

  120. William P Miller

    Mr e, the SPLC makes it’s living from race baiting. Besides, there is plenty of fodder for a NPLC up in your home territory. I mean, witness the hate that regularly spews from your mouth. But you keep it up. I almost always get a good chuckle from your postings. -:)

  121. William P Miller

    Ken, thank you for repeating my statement in bold type. It’s nice to be in agreement now and then. -:)

  122. travelah

    travelah, you are such a lying sack of right-wing extremist you know what. Why do you just make things up?

    The SPLC does not list Wright as the leader of a hate group…

    I can see how you rushed to judgment on the matter and peed your pants but the subject I was referring to was the friend and associate of both Obama and Wright, the “good rev Farrakan” and the Nation of Islam.

  123. Ken Hanke

    Ken, thank you for repeating my statement in bold type. It’s nice to be in agreement now and then

    That wasn’t exactly agreement. I was quoting you. I said I didn’t comment on the book’s quality. I haven’t read it.

  124. Eli Cohen

    The real lincoln has pages and everthing. Golly willie p., whened you start acipherin’

  125. tatuaje

    Speak for a majority? Of course not
    “Susan, the majority of people living in south Louisiana at the time understand that the President of the US does not shoulder the blame for the damage done by hurricane Katrina.”

    Well, right there you were speaking for the majority….

    it would be pretty hard to find a rational argument blaming George Bush for Democrat Kathleen Blanco’s failure to serve two terms as Governor of Louisiana.

    Obviously you didn’t take the time to read the article that I linked to. Hell, just google Katrina ‘time-line’ and a great many options will come up. But, just in case, here’s that article again:
    http://www.salon.com/books/excerpt/2008/06/06/rove_katrina/index.html

    That article, and ANY time-line you read of that event, CLEARLY show the ineptitude and inadequacy of the current administration in handling the response to this disaster. It is SO easy to find a rational argument….you have NO facts to back up your claims.

    Equally amazing is a lack of blaming Bush for the greater damage east of New Orleans, an area that is recovering without looking for the creation of another welfare society. Amazing again is the lack of focus on the devasted areas of Cameron Parish in south west Louisiana that could arguably be claimed to have suffered equally or greater damage than that of Katrina.
    He’s generally blamed for that, too, as far as I can tell. I hate the fact that my friends in Gulfport and the surrounding areas got, and are getting, even LESS help than NOLA. The media focused on the big city and the feds followed suit, at least when they finally realized that something had to be done.

    Ten trips down there? Somehow, I am skeptical you accomplished much.
    I have helped gut 10 houses. I have helped build 5 houses. I have volunteered at the Common Ground health clinic in Algiers. I have donated money to Common Ground as well as several local churches. I have worked as a cameraman on a documentary that will shed light on the oldest African-American culture still in the US. I would say that constitutes accomplishing quite a bit. Hmmm, ’nuff said.

    Really…how can you possibly defend Bush? If you come back with another post with NO facts I will find the time to post, in minute detail, Bush’s movements leading up to, during, and after the storm. However, these have been printed in just about EVERY major publication in the country, so just go read ’em for yourself and save the drivel…

  126. entopticon

    William P Miller said “Mr e, the SPLC makes it’s living from race baiting.”

    And here is the answer in the form of a question, Jeopardy style… What is things the Grand Wizard of the KKK might say, Alex? That is correct.

    You are seriously out of your mind. Now you are blaming the country’s leading hate group watchdog organization for race-baiting!?! Even your best buddy travelah, who endlessly spouts hate group rhetoric about communist and leftist liberals and Obama’s ultra top secret radical Islamic agenda, said “the SPLC is a wonderful organization.”

    Oh no, the fabric of the Universe is tearing apart… now travelah is a radical liberal race-baiter who isn’t on board with the white-supremacist agenda of your favorite author….

  127. entopticon

    travelah, I’m sure your tactic of self-righteous indignation combined with constantly making things up and then changing your position when you are caught in the lie works a lot better in casual conversation, but the problem is that here on the web all your words are easily referenced:

    “Speaking of the Southern Poverty Law Center, they also consider a friend and associate of Barack Hussein Obama and his spiritual mentor of twenty years, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, to be a leader of a Black racist hate group.”

    That is an outright lie. At an absolute minimum you could have had the integrity to at very least haven taken responsibility for misspeaking instead of covering up one lie with another and trying to make it about me.

    Is that something they teach you in Christian apologist school, because it is an astonishingly common trait among them?

  128. William P Miller

    Ken, I was joking.

    Mr e, the SPLC, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson all make “race” their living. If there is no real racism going on, they invent some. SPLC is not a credible source in this matter. And just as Mr t has said, the SPLC is friendly with the world class racist Louis Farrakhan, of the Nation of Islam. A scary connection between Barack Hussein Obama, Louis Farrakhan, and Rev Jeremiah Wright.

  129. travelah

    entop, I realize reading comprehension does not suit you when it opposes your agenda but this is what I wrote:

    Speaking of the Southern Poverty Law Center, they also consider a friend and associate of Barack Hussein Obama and his spiritual mentor of twenty years, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, to be a leader of a Black racist hate group. Louis Farrakan, as leader of the hate group, Nation of Islam, as been on the SPLC’ watch for years.

    The friend ansd associate is such with both men, Obama and Wright. The friends name and associate is Louis Farrakan.

    Try again.

  130. Eli Cohen

    Hey, whats so bad about Louis Farrakhan ? So he hates whitey, so what? willie p. hates the black man. I mean, what has Louis Farrakhan done that engenders all this slander? He has done a lot of good for black people. I heard that some people think he had Malcolm X killed, but hell, bushie boy and cheney have caused the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women, and children in iraq. Their (bush-cheney) accomplishments pale in comparison to what hitler and stalin did. (in terms of sheer numbers) But you have to give them extra credits for doing it for profit and power.

  131. entopticon

    Friend and associate of Barack Obama? Louis Farakhan… the man that Barack Obama publicly “renounced and rejected”? Reverend Wright has vehemently spoken out against the Nation of Islam’s seperatist tenets for decades you lying bigot. Obama doesn’t even know Louis Farrakahn and he certainly does not consider him a friend.

    Reading comprehension doesn’t suit me? Doesn’t suit me? Your barely rational arguments are a parody of themselves. The sentence I quoted stands for itself. If you are a poor writer that is your issue, it’s not my fault that bible college only offers a parody of a legitimat education where dinosaurs are a conspiracy, evolution never happened and a vindictive magical giant floating around in the sky explains everything away.

    By th way, you addedhe underline you added after the fact. There would have had to have been a possessive to have meant what you apparently tried to say.

    Another thing that you failed to grasp on the link you provided is the SPLC’s statement that prejudice from black organizations should be taken seriously, but it is a VASTLY smaller problem than white-supremacist organizations, like the the one your good friend William P Morris is so fond of.

    The pathetic thing is, your constant ranting about black bigotry is what makes you the real bigot. You rant on and on every day about black bigotry, yet you constantly defend white bigots like your good buddy William. You just don’t get it. Before it is reasonable for you to rant on and on and on about what a problem black bigotry is, you need to rant on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about white-supremacist bigots, instead of just constantly disseminating their right-wing extremist rhetoric.

    By any reasonable measure, white racism is a vastly, vastly, vastly greater problem, so the fact that you concentrate so much more on black bigotry speaks to your own severely twisted prejudice. If you have a bone in your body that cares the slightest bit about intellectual honesty, that part of you knows that I am right. Your rabid obsession with Wright et al, along with your complete disregard for the facts in favor of right wing extremist muckraking, gives you away.

    Now go burn some books and hunt down a witch or whatever it is you do on your average Wednesday evening.

  132. travelah

    entop, what band of spoiled koolaid have you been drinking that give you cause to think I went to “bible college”? Just curious to know what the guy who pretends to have attended seven universities and has one degree to show for it thinks, ya know?? :)

  133. entopticon

    So you didn’t go to bible college travelah? I’m only basing that on the fact that you claim you were educated as a Christian apologist. They didn’t offer any classes on that at any of the colleges that I went to. It is kind of hard to imagine someone with your alarmingly ignorant points of view having gone to anything besides bible college, but as William P Miller’s racist hero Thomas DiLorenzo has proven, anything is possible, because he did.

    I have more than one degree by the way. I only have one Master’s degree. I’ve though about getting another one because I’ve already taken a lot of Master’s level courses in philosophy, political science, feminism, and environmental studies, so I would have a big head start if I wanted to, but I don’t see the point. You make it sound like such a terrible thing that I like educating myself. What skin is it off of your back?

    You seem to forget travelah, the infamous Jonestown poisonous Kool-Aid drinkers were in the same cult that YOU belong to, so every time you use that term your hypocrisy makes you look even more foolish, which is admittedly no small task.

  134. William P Miller

    LOL, it is so telling. Mr e DEFENDING Obama NO MATTER WHAT. Mr e is college educated? Mr e is a koolaide drunk Obamunist who will rationalize anything the inexperienced junior senator does or says. Louis Farrakhan is a monster. He is a Jew hating, white hating racist of the worst stripe. And a buddy of another world class racist, Rev Jerimiazh Wright. They are both longtime friends of Barack Osama Hussein Obama.

    Obama may have appeared slick during the primaries. But he will fare dismally during the general election. Barack Osama Hussein Obama is an inexperienced trojan pony who will be crushed in November.

  135. entopticon

    William P Miller… Tell the truth… you never made it past the 8th grade, did you?

    Ooooh you called Obama, “Osama.” That’s soooo surprising coming from a mentally challenged white supremacist. And you have super secret knowledge about how Obama and Louis Farrakahn are secret pals. I’m sure the President wakes you up in the middle of the night and pushes your sister out the roll out bed in your trailer so that he can tell you all the special white-supremacist secrets that he only tells to the people who huff the most gasoline on your street.

    You sure are special there William P Morris. What do you need teeth or an education for when you already know so much? And golly, I am just shaking in my boots about your insightful political analysis. If only I was there so I could hear the theme song from Deliverance playing while you speak.

    Who cares if you were completely wrong about Hillary winning the nomination; people like you aren’t hindered by trivial things like credibility or facts.

    Please keep talking about how dumb I am am because I don’t understand how magically important the white-supremacist rhetoric you constantly peddle really is. Yee-haw. Hee-haw and Yippe Ki-Yay!

  136. Dionysis

    “Ooooh you called Obama, “Osama.”

    Expect lots more of this kind of stuff, both on the national level and from the electronic brownshirts locally. They cannot crow over an abysmal record of failure and have nothing to offer but more of the same. What’s left but smear, invective and diversion?

    These characters couldn’t sell eyesight to the blind, so no need to pay any attention to them. Losers, one and all.

  137. david

    “Barack Osama Hussein Obama is an inexperienced trojan pony who will be crushed in November.”

    Who in their right mind would crush a pony?

    I mean, besides a confused, frightened, potentially sexually confused, unemployed, emasculated middle-aged white man, of course.

  138. entopticon

    William P Miller you must be really upset by the Camp Summerlane feature running here in the Mountain Xpress. I mean all those Yankee’s coming down here with their Yankee communist pinko ways, forcing all of those good old-style Southern folks to savagely attack the pinko Yankee women, men, and children of the camp because of their Yankee integrationist beliefs.

    Those poor, poor people, forced to savagely attack a children’s camp because of their liberal ways and the camp’s sick, twisted belief in integration. Why can’t we get back to the good old South where nobody gave you a hard time for savagely attacking a children’s summer camp? Bring back the good ol’ days, right?

    Not.

  139. William P Miller

    dAVID said: ” I mean, besides a confused, frightened, potentially sexually confused, unemployed, emasculated middle-aged white man, of course.”

    Just what I expect from a knee-jerk Obamunist. You far lefty moveon.org’ers know Barack Hussein Obama has no chance in the general election, so you try to shut down debate by bringing race into the picture. Anyone who disagrees with Osama is a racist. NOT.

    All the republicans need to do is pin Obama down on his lack of federal experience, his many flip-flops when he has been caught saying the wrong thing, remind the people that he has anti-American and even racist friends in Farrakhan & Wright. And an anti-American domestic terrorist in Bill Ayers.

    The man is a great speaker…and bull slinging artist. Nothing more and nothing less. We need, and deserve, a better qualitifed man as president 2009-2012. The choice is simple. President John McCain will take the oath in January. Since he’s known as such an across-the-aisle guy, perhaps he will make Obama the head of HUD, probably the only position he has a smidgeon of gravitas at.

  140. david

    William-I am in no way an “Obamunist” I figure you use the term tongue-in-cheek sense as it is so non-sensical. Ha Ha.

    But I have to wonder, what sort of debate to do you hope to engage with that sort of knee-jerk assumption yourself?

    Nothing in my post indicated any sort of affiliation with Obama. Merely, I was pointing out the absurdity of your pony-crushing reference. You dont mean for me to understand that you do intend to crush innocent foal, do you? I think not. You seem like a kind enough man. But I do wonder about the seriousness of pretending to accidentally mis-spell Obama’s middle name as “Osama”, thereby implying affiliation with a religion and culture to which he has no actual allegiance.

    If this is the level of debate you wish to engage on these boards, then you should hardly be surprised when you are mocked, tongue securely in cheek, comrade :-)

    Now go out and enjoy the glorious weather in your organic garden, my brother (TIC) :-)

  141. david

    “If only I was there so I could hear the theme song from Deliverance playing while you speak.”

    In my opinion, entop, this is a thinly veiled rascist insult. You denigrate yourself by sinking to (or below) your “competitor’s” level. Although without your apparent anger, this might make a funny joke. But I know you are not making a joke. You are too serious for that.

    Why is it that, in making fun of people from Appalachia, racist, anti-white jokes are tolerated, but other racist jokes arent? Time and time gain I find people who seem to have left-wing pretensions insulting the ‘backward’ values of the people who have lived in this area for a lot longer than them.
    I think there is a lot of very special, unique musical and artistic cultural heritage in this area, and I am embarrassed and disgusted when someone I know makes a an ignorant and racist comment about ‘rednecks’ without understanding their own implications in the process of cultural gentrification and hegemony. Personally, I do not understand the person who can move to an area and feel they are somehow “better” than the locals. “Northerns” most certainly do this when they come down this way, just as most Americans do it when they go to, say, Mexico or Canada. Its the Ugly American Syndrome, played out right here In WNC.

    I am in no way defending or affiliating myself with the self-proclaimed protectors of Southern Heritage who make a career out of their own characatures on this board (take a bow, ya’ll), but I do feel the need to point out this annoying hypocrasy of the so-called “Left” that seems so ever prevalent on this board and which does seem to justify a bit of the vitriol with which certain bloggers are able to decry the superiority complex of folks from “away”.

  142. William P Miller

    dAVID, dude, are you “mocking” me? Jon just posted reminding us to be careful with that. Because this board is about issues, NOT personalities. Most of my friends are liberals. Nice folks, but when politics comes up, mostly a knee-jerk emotion comes up. I am smart enougn to not talk about politics with them, because I valve the friendship and realize that leftwing politics is for some reason, emotion based and not logic based.

    There is no flag big enough to cover the perfidity of a Jane Fonda. period. My opinion. Your point of view is equally valid, sans the personal remarks. Ypou have a good evening mi amigo!

  143. david

    william p-

    Where have I mocked you? Can you please point his out? I asked you to point out where I made any reference to Obama in my post, and you failed to do so. I will conclude that your earlier reference to “Obomunism” was an off-topic attempt to steer the conversation away from facts and towards the name-calling you relish. Innuendos and insinuations to Obama’s affiliation with the so-called ‘radical left’ or with radical Islam is very off-topic, and meant to smear. Do you mean to say that calling Obama “Osama” had something to do with the above letter about Impeaching Bush and Cheney? Or that using the term ‘trojan pony’ wasnt meant to imply he is a closet islamic terrorist cell waiting to dupe us Liberals into voting for him, as you and travelah both do very often on this and other mx blogs?

    Your attempt to hide behind your ‘good day amigo’ shtick is humorous, but is not fooling anyone. I will be happy when posters like you dont bog down the opportunity for intelligent, on-topic discussions. The MX boards offer a great opportunity for deeper research into articles’ topics, but are too often sidetracked by people such as yourself who wish to rehash worn out debates like “Southerner Vs. Yankee” and “Liberal Vs Conservative”, whether or not they have anything to do with the topic.

    You, sir, have an account which allows you to engage in the forums, where you can start any topic you wish. Why dont you do so? And,, more importantly, why does the moderator allow you to bait with terms like ‘obomunist’, ‘yankee socialist’, etc? I refuse to be pulled into such absurd, off-topic debates, but I do not wish to wade through another month of entop vs travalha and william p to get a nugget of truth about Agent Miller’s history of drunkeness on the job. So, until then, I will continue to point out your inaccuracies and obvious hypocrasies for the moderators to justify.

  144. William, david here. Wondering if you will answer any of my above questions, or merely continue to play childrens semantic games?

    I guess the mods really enjoy all the extra hits you and travel-ha create with your slanderous, off-topic ‘osamunism’ comments and the like.

    Too bad, the MX could actually be a helpful, informative site.

  145. “Mr e is a koolaide drunk Obamunist who will rationalize anything the inexperienced junior senator does or says. Louis Farrakhan is a monster. He is a Jew hating, white hating racist of the worst stripe. And a buddy of another world class racist, Rev Jerimiazh Wright. They are both longtime friends of Barack Osama Hussein Obama.”

    Yes. Way to be on-topic.

    “There is no flag big enough to cover the perfidity of a Jane Fonda. period.” Well, you must have just gotten confused on that one, since the above topic has nothing to do with Jane Fonda whatsoever.”

    Again, so on topic. Moderators, Ban him and you wont have to deal with me re-posting “William’s” quotes.

  146. William P Miller

    atruth, my comments above are not personal attacks. But you being a liberal, I can understand how you don’t know the difference. Most all my friends are liberal. I know how most of you guys think and react to political issues. The response is almost always a knee-jerk emotional reaction, and a personal attack on the conservative politician de jour. Using descriptors is not personal attack. If you want examples of that, just read entopticon’s posts. Oops, looks like he has been banned. Finally.

    As I have mentioned above, the writer just has no sense of scale. To compare the Red Chinese response to an earthquake to President Bush is just plain ridiculous. Ask the Tibetans just how humane the Red Chinese totalitarian government is.

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