Save America: Mind our own business, not others’

I was just curious as to what has happened in this great country of ours. I remember those carefree days of my youth when the biggest thing you had to worry about was being home before dark. We were told to stay away from strangers. When we did something wrong we were punished, and yes, sometimes spanked or smacked. These were the common things of life when I was growing up. Now I can't help but wonder what has happened to our way of life as Americans.

These days people seem to be too busy worrying about what everyone else is doing, and not spending their time worrying about their own problems. Little Jimmy can't say grace over his food for fear of offense, and little Sally can't bless her food with whatever non-Christian belief she has, for fear of offense. Parents can't spank or bathe their children for fear of being child abusers. …

Then, of course, there's been the latest fiasco about herbivores versus carnivores. My question is simple: Who cares? Why does it matter whether I eat meat or vegetables? I saw blame being cast for global warming; sorry, but I think we are responsible for that.

Who cares if you eat transfats, smoke cigarettes or drink liquor? As long as you don't start driving drunk, killing your fellow man or robbing the local grocer for that fatty deliciousness, I do not see how you are doing anything wrong. Furthermore, I really fail to see how it's any of your business what I choose to eat or drink, how I raise my children, or what faith I believe.

The time has come to start opening your eyes and looking at what we as a nation our doing to ourselves. We have stripped away our own moral fibers and we have started to worry more about what our fellow man is doing than we do about our own families. It's time to stop worrying about everything everyone else is doing and start living our own lives again.

— Josh Mallernee
Asheville

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77 thoughts on “Save America: Mind our own business, not others’

  1. chops

    That old way of life is unsustainable.

    Our survival requires us to examine our collective responsibilities.

    Eating transfats, smoking cigarettes, and drinking liquor doesn’t just affect you, it increases health care costs for everybody. That isn’t fair! … Violence to children is unnecessary and cruel. I can think of good reasons for all the positive changes that we see in the world.

    We are making progress as a civilization. You may not like it, but it is happening because we are slowly coming to understand our responsibilities to each other. We are all one!

  2. Josh

    “Eating transfats, smoking cigarettes, and drinking liquor doesn’t just affect you, it increases health care costs for everybody. That isn’t fair”

    Ok I’ll give you the health care issue; however I do have to ask why it is societies problem to pay for it? I pay my own health insurance and health care. We are not in a socialized medical system like Europe and our Northern neighbors so by all rights we should not be footing the bill for those who do.

    The cigarette thing is a bit of a stickler for me as I am a smoker. My main argument on transfats, liqour, cigarettes and all the other things that are major health concerns now is simple. Why weren’t they an issue before only in the last few years has it become a huge issue. I don’t see thousands of cancer cases in the news from second hand smoke, but 20yrs ago smoking was more common then it is now.

    I agree violence towards children is wrong, but I do believe no disciplining your children is wrong as well. Look at our kids now and I realize its not all the kids, but since parents became afraid of punishing there children you have 12 yr olds who threaten adults, more and more kids carrying guns. People complain about violent games like Grand Theft Auto, but when do parents take the responsibility for the actions of there child.

    The basic concept of being all one doesn’t work. There is no way that you will ever mold all of society to that thinking. Human instinct is survival and survival comes down to self preservation. It is written in our DNA. It would be nice if we could all be one big happy family but it will never happen.

  3. Piffy!

    the good ol days are a hazy myth. they never really happened as you remember them, because your leisure was on the backs of those you didnt even see toiling.

  4. “Ok I’ll give you the health care issue; however I do have to ask why it is societies problem to pay for it?”

    The question of who does or does not pay for an individual’s health care is only a problem for collectivized societies; such as you would find under socialism.

    That is precisely where socialized health care leads: Conflicting interest groups at war with each other over who has a say in your lifestyle.

  5. “collective responsibilities”… so basically what you’re saying is, “government knows better than does an individual, so control over others’ lives is a good thing.”

    personal decisions regarding health ONLY effects others’ pockets when the government gets involved in controlling what otherwise would be a free market and MUCH lower costs — they way it USED to be BEFORE We the People allowed it to become so involved.

    spanking a child when he/she deserves it is NOT “violence against children”, it’s called DISCIPLINE, and it is obviously lacking as exemplified with the widespread blatant disrespect of today’s youth to their parents and elders.

    responsibilities toward one another CANNOT be forced through foolish legislation — this can ONLY truly occur as an action of FREEWILL.

    increasing AUTHORITARIANISM is NOT “progress of a civilization”. on the contrary, it only serves to usurp individual liberty. individuals among the working class do not benefit — the rulers and the corporations they are in bed with benefit.

    WAKE UP all those who are oblivious to what is going on who support the authoritarian status quo in “AMERIKA”!

    … and thank you Josh for a very good article!

    i agree with everything you said, EXCEPT for the bit about our causing “global warming”. i’m against the abuse of natural resources in general and try to do my part in conserving them, but i am also conscious of the authoritarian drive for global government, and it seems that there has been much deception created in order to do just that.

    if government REALLY gave a damn about the natural environment, it would have lifted the ban on industrial hemp a LONG time ago.

    as with most all things, follow the money to find the smoking gun! 8-)

  6. chops

    I want you to quit smoking because when your health costs go up, so does my insurance premium. That has nothing to do with socialism, or “government controlling”.

  7. The reason your premiums go up is because of government controls and the absence of a free market in health insurance (socialism).

  8. chops

    Yes, most often, a group makes better decisions than an individual. That’s why we have “boards”, “think tanks”, juries, parliament etc.

    I wasn’t really thinking of the government when I said “collective responsibilities”, but yes there are many examples of government policies that are in the best interest of the individual. That’s the very reasoning for laws.

    Freewill, individual liberty, etc. are ideals, but there must be limits.

    Thich Nhat Hanh says it best:

    “I think we have the Statue of Liberty on the East Coast. But in the name of freedom, people have done a lot of damage. I think we have to build a Statue of Responsibility on the West Coast in order to counterbalance. Because liberty without responsibility is not true liberty. We are not free to destroy.”

  9. chops

    Even in a free market, insurance companies would still have to calculate premiums by averaging the health costs across a group of individuals.

  10. We do not have a free market in health insurance.

    Had we, you could purchase health insurance across state lines, the government would not mandate coverage criteria, and there would be no barriers to new competitive entrants into the market.

  11. “better decisions”… like the way the gov’t has been bankrupting this nation now for decades? try that in an individual private business and see how long that lasts… unless of course, your private business is fortunate enough to get bailed out for poor management.

    or how about the decision made in 1913 which gave a private bank the power to dictate America’s economic policy, with absolutely no oversight or accountability whatsoever…?

    of course liberty requires responsibility! and We the People have fallen down on our responsibility to limit government so that it doesn’t grow into the unlimited and unaccountable centralized power monger it has become… and “we” seem to continue to grow it, now at exponential rates.

    “sin taxes” on things like tobacco & alcohol is a major farce. who decides which items to tax at higher rates? surely they’re not biased! 8-) and factually, moderate alcohol consumption is proven to be healthy — that was even known in ancient civilizations, yet fools in ours claim otherwise.

    but if you so choose, go ahead in continuing to champion the ever growing authoritarian government who wants to “take care of you, and who knows how to do it better than you do.”

    just know that when the US economy finally is sold out from under all future “American” generations, there will be no one to blame but ourselves.

    We the People get EXACTLY the government we deserve, locally and nationally, and we are only beginning to fully reap the harvest of what we have sown.

  12. “there are many examples of government policies that are in the best interest of the individual. That’s the very reasoning for laws.”

    Laws are not policies.

    “Policies,” in this context, means political regulatory interference in economic freedoms of sovereign individuals.

    A free market necessarily includes the rule of law. Any market that is not constrained by an objective rule of law is not free. This is a requirement of the protection of individual rights; which is the only proper purpose of government.

    It is the rule of law in a free market that ensures economic and political liberty.

  13. “Modern collectivists . . . see society as a super-organism, as some supernatural entity apart from and superior to the sum of its individual members.” -Ayn Rand

  14. Thanks everyone for a good discussion on individual liberty and the limits of government from a variety of perspectives. A lot of interesting and valid points have been made.

    I invite everyone to continue this conversation in person at our weekly informal socials.

    Please join us at Liberty on the Rocks on Monday nights at El Chapala Restaurant, Merrimon, 7PM. http://twitter.com/LibertyRocksAVL

  15. Piffy!

    [b]We do not have a free market in health insurance.

    Had we, you could purchase health insurance across state lines, the government would not mandate coverage criteria, and there would be no barriers to new competitive entrants into the market. [/b]

    and yet we NEVER will have a FREE MARKET, ever. Corporations control the world, and have for centuries.

    This is the problem with the ‘free-marketeers’; they think they can have their ayn rand fantasy land by merely removing government control, as if corporate control were non-existent. Honestly, i’d rather have the petty bureaucracy of government control than the violent despotism of corporatism. And that is basically the only real choice we have.

  16. Corporations cannot control anything. They can only offer superior products and services to consumers freely trading for mutual benefit.

    That is not control; that is service to one’s fellow man.

    Only the government can control. Government = force.

  17. interesting how so many Neo-Amerikans have been apparently indoctrinated (primarily though the public school system and media?) to hate the concept of a free market, and choose to rather champion a system by which corporations control an all powerful centralized government, giving the very thing they hate ultimate power.

    priceless irony! LOL! 8-)

  18. Piffy!

    Out of curiosity IBBC, can you give me an example of the “Free Market” ever working, anywhere, at any point in recorded history?

    Also, who here has “championed” the corporatacrosy?

    [bCorporations cannot control anything. They can only offer superior products and services to consumers freely trading for mutual benefit.[/b]

    Right, so when Shell hires thugs to kill union organizers, or when Rockafeller did the same, or when Enron rips off California, that was all the “government’s” fault, right?

  19. Piffy!

    “Modern Randian free-marketeers . . . see the free market as a super-organism, as some supernatural entity apart from and superior to the sum of its individual members.” -The PFKaP

  20. “Out of curiosity IBBC, can you give me an example of the “Free Market” ever working, anywhere, at any point in recorded history?”

    1. Hong Kong — until its take over by Communist China.

    2. In America, the period between the Civil War and 1913 — where we had no central bank. This was the freest, most inventive, most prosperous period in American history.

  21. Piffy!

    Also, timpeck, you and IBCC seem to be at odds. He seems to think the big bad goverment is controlled by corporations and you seem to think corporations are benign. Which is it? Are corporations benign or do they run the world by controlling the government?

  22. ““prosperous” for who, at whose expense?”

    Prosperous for everyone, to this day. And at no one’s expense. Capitalism, to the extent that it exists, increases wealth for everyone. Only socialism is a zero-sum game, where the productive are sacrificed for the predatory gain of the non-productive as its vicious moral imperative.

  23. Piffy!

    [b]Prosperous for everyone, to this day. And at no one’s expense. [/b]

    Can you back this up with some examples? i’m interested in learning more, but am a bit skeptical about such a broad, bold pronouncement.

    [b]Only socialism is a zero-sum game[/b]

    Okay, but who here is saying anything about Socialism?

  24. “Are corporations benign or do they run the world by controlling the government?”

    Neither.

    Corporations are not mystical disembodied entities with amazzzzzing powers. Corporations are peopled by individuals whose actions are subject to market forces and the facts of reality; irrespective of either their nefarious or beneficent intentions.

    It is only when the government brutally intervenes on their behalf that they are able to artificially and momentarily defy reality and gain those advantages conferred upon them by its coercive force — which distort real economic factors, induce malinvestment, restrain competition, and inhibit market entry to innovators.

  25. Piffy!

    [b]Corporations are not mystical disembodied entities with amazzzzzing powers. [/b]

    Who has said that? Or is that another straw man like bringing up “Socialism” in your previous post?

  26. Piffy!

    [b]It is only when the government brutally intervenes on their behalf that they are able to artificially and momentarily defy reality and gain those advantages conferred upon them by its coercive force—which distort real economic factors, induce malinvestment, restrain competition, and inhibit market entry to innovators. [/b]

    And so how do we got from there to this Free Market you speak about?

    And when Coca Cola kills union organizers in Columbia, is that the government’s fault?
    How and Why?

  27. “Out of curiosity IBBC, can you give me an example of the “Free Market” ever working, anywhere, at any point in recorded history?”

    yup, sure can! besides being “illegal”, the black market in marijuana is an example of a feel market that seems to apparently be working pretty well to this day, even in Asheville so i hear! 8-)

    “And so how do we got from there to this Free Market you speak about?”

    i certainly don’t have all the answers to this very important question, but one way might be to see how we got to where we are and make serious attempts to undo the mistakes that have been made.

    IMHO, one of the most serious mistakes is not continuing to mandate a Constitutionally limited and accountable government. it is the losing control over our own government which has allowed the corporations to also grow in power and influence over that same government.

    in doing so, we’ve allowed a near-all-powerful centralized federal government to have control over nearly every aspect of the life of the individual — as the article does a great job of pointing out.

    as one result, the reason why a company can get away with, perhaps “murder”, is because the government is not performing its just duties because it has become so overly corrupt.

    i believe that most free market folks i’ve met thus far champion the liberties of the individual. we generally believe it is wrong for another individual, corporation, or government to violate an individual’s unalienable freedoms.

    when an individual’s freedom is violated, and the parties involved cannot resolve the matter among themselves, then it is the role of government to hear and try the matter in a court of law. but if the Judiciary has also become as corrupt as the Legislative and Executive branches of government, then it cannot properly function to uphold justice.

    so yeah, i really do think that rooting out various corruption in government would be one good way to help maximize individual liberties and minimize the power and scope of the State.

    i also regularly attend the Liberty on the Rocks socials on Monday nights @ El Clapala, Merrimon. it’s kind of a non-partisan “libertarian-esque” version of “Drinking Liberally” or “Green Drinks”. if anyone interested in some alternative viewpoints to the mainstream Neo-Con and/or Neo-Lib ideology which seems to be polarizing America to death, join us for a beer sometime!

    peace…

    8-)

    bbc

  28. Betty Cloer Wallace

    Wouldn’t the world of art–the business of art–be an example of free market enterprise that works (almost) worldwide?

  29. Piffy!

    [i]Out of curiosity IBBC, can you give me an example of the “Free Market” ever working, anywhere, at any point in recorded history?[/i]

    [b]yup, sure can! besides being “illegal”, the black market in marijuana is an example of a feel market that seems to apparently be working pretty well to this day, even in Asheville so i hear! [/b]

    That is laughably inaccurate (Assuming you meant ‘free market’ and not ‘feel market’). The fact that it is illegal means it is regulated by default, and therefore price is controlled by the government. If marijuana was ‘de-criminalized’, it might approach being a free-market.

    i think this illustrates how clearly clueless you are in this debate, and why even timpeck appears to be embarrassed by you trying to represent his ‘side’. You seem to think that without any public (government) control, corporations would magically turn into benign entities. Obviously, this is demonstrably and patently absurd
    , but i am enjoying laughing at your simple, naive assertions.

  30. Piffy!

    timpeck– I’m still anxiously awaiting the response to my last two posts directed towards you. I am enjoying our debate, and look forward to your responses!

  31. Piffy!

    i guess you’re right. it’s foolish of me to wait for you to respond to specific questions, or to address IBCC’s fallacious argument. Goo day, Mr. Smug> Be well, and watch out for uppity bouncers!

  32. Piffy!

    wow, you arent very good at debating your points, timpeck. Tah! for now, then, i suppose.

  33. JWTJr

    “Out of curiosity IBBC, can you give me an example of the “Free Market” ever working, anywhere, at any point in recorded history?”

    Puffy – how do you define ‘working’? Name a country has a market that is ‘working’?

  34. travelah

    We are all one! >/i>

    Nope ….. don’t want any part of your oneness.

  35. JWTJr

    Come on PK. Name a successful socio-economic model. One more successful than ours. A place that offers a better overall package than the US. You feels ours is so terribly wrong. Who is doing things right?

  36. Piffy!

    [b]Come on PK. Name a successful socio-economic model. One more successful than ours. [/b]

    I never made any implication whatsoever of ‘believing’ in an economic system. So i see little need to provide the proof you demand. i merely asked for an example of the ‘free market’ working, ever. and no one has been able to do so (I would imagine you can agree IBBC’s “Black market marijuana” example is laughable).

    [b]A place that offers a better overall package than the US. You feels ours is so terribly wrong. Who is doing things right?[/b]

    Are you under the impression that by asking for specific examples of the “Free market” ever actually existing outside a textbook that i am criticizing the American economic system? First off, the US is not a ‘free market’. never was, sure aint now. Second, i don’t knw how to answer who is ‘doing it right’, since i have not offered any examples of ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. i just asked for an example of the free market existing, which no one has done.

  37. JWTJr

    Puffy – You seem to hate the US system … do you hate all systems? I figured there might be one somewhere you might like.

    How about Utopia? You free market bashers seem to love Utopia

  38. JWTJr

    “since i have not offered any examples of ‘right’ or ‘wrong’.”

    Really …. you said we are not doing it right … that is the same as us doing it wrong … right?

  39. JWTJr

    I guess I’ll be more specific … whose economic model do you like? Free Market or not.

    I’m not interested in debating the semantics of our system. Nobody has a model that fits the theoretical. All are a mixture of some kind.

  40. Piffy!

    [b]Really …. you said we are not doing it right … that is the same as us doing it wrong … right? [/b]

    I did? Where?

    And what does ‘it’ refer to in that sentence?

    [b]I guess I’ll be more specific … whose economic model do you like? Free Market or not.[/b]

    [i]Again[/i], I’m really not interested in debating ANY theoretical economic model. that is the entire point. arguing theory is pointless in the real world.

  41. JWTJr

    I’m not asking if you like any theoretical model. I’m asking if any country in the world has a model you like.

  42. Piffy!

    [b]That was some excellent cha cha cha [/b]

    No, but you will surely continue to try and package it as so. And the ironic part it is you who is dancing around my SIMPLE question regarding specific examples of functioning free markets ever in history.

    [b]I’m not asking if you like any theoretical model. I’m asking if any country in the world has a model you like. [/b]

    A model i like? Well, in what context? As in, ‘better than others’ or as in ‘altruism’?
    Because I really fail to see how asking for specific examples of a functioning free market at any point in history (which no one has been able to prove as of yet) has anything to do with what ‘theoretical models’ i think might work. I’m not an economist. And i am certainly not a communist or even a socialist as i strongly suspect you are assuming/hoping.

    So, can you just answer the question, JW? Or will you continue to dance around it by demanding i answer something entirely irrelevant?

    When has there ever been an example of a truly ‘free market’, ever, in recorded history?

  43. Piffy!

    [b]Puffy – You seem to hate the US system … do you hate all systems? I figured there might be one somewhere you might like. [/b]

    Ahh, ad hom attack. so cute.

    So, tell me JW, what have i said that can be construed as ‘hating America’? The part where I said corporations control the world, or the part where I asked for even ONE specific example fo a functioning ‘free market’?

    [b]
    How about Utopia? You free market bashers seem to love Utopia [/b]

    No, that would be as foolish as claiming some allegiance to a mythical ‘free market’. For the 7th or 8th time, I am not saying there is a ‘perfect’ economic model. I have stated repeatedly that I find the “Free Market” model pushed by folks like timpeck to be wildly naive and not realistic for real-world application.

    It seems you really have no understanding of this though, and will continue to assume I am some sort of Communist or Socialist, regardless of what i actually say or posit.

  44. Piffy!

    Tell me JW, since you seem to think that mocking timpecks “Free Market” fantasies is ‘anti-American”, what sort of Economic Model do you think we have here in America? In practice, of course.

  45. There is no example of existing free market capitalism. Certainly not in America or Europe.

    But not to worry. We don’t need an example of freedom to advocate for its advent. Freedom from slavery did not exist anywhere in the world until slavery was abolished in the West as a consequence of the principle of individual rights borne of the European Enlightenment. Sadly, slavery does still exists in Africa and certain Arab countries.

    The good modern example of a free market would probably be Hong Kong before it was lost to Communist China. In America, the closest we came to a free market was between the Civil War and 1913 when we had no central bank and little government intervention in the economy. It was the most innovative and prosperous period in our history.

    I, like the slave of the Olde World, hope that we can achieve true political/economic freedom in my lifetime and in my own country.

    Anyone wishing to understand more about the history and nature of capitalist economic freedom should read the new book CAPITALISM UNBOUND by Andrew Bernstein.

    Capitalism Unbound: The Incontestable Moral Case for Individual Rights by Andrew Bernstein
    http://is.gd/5tWDD

    “This book is a concise explanation of capitalism’s moral and economic superiority to socialism, including America’s current mixed-economy welfare state. This volume offers a focused, essentialized, and condensed argument ideal for the layman who admires capitalism but lacking a succinct, accessible explanation of its moral and economic virtues.”

  46. Piffy!

    [b]I, like the slave …hope that we can achieve true political/economic freedom in my lifetime and in my own country.[/b]

    Interesting comparison, timpeck. Especially since ’emancipation’ was really just an excuse for corporations (in that case northern factories) to come in and own them in a different way, very much like how the corporate world would dominate the globe without any sort of government regulation.

    I get that you think it’s possible, but i don’t see any evidence presented thus far to convince me it is any more than a mythical fantasy. Where are the concrete examples? How do we get there from here? How do we, the people of the planet, ensure that by taking away all regulation that corporations will truly be as benign as you imagine?

  47. Piffy!

    [b]“This book is a concise explanation of capitalism’s moral and economic superiority to socialism, including America’s current mixed-economy welfare state. This volume offers a focused, essentialized, and condensed argument ideal for the layman who admires capitalism but lacking a succinct, accessible explanation of its moral and economic virtues.” [/b]

    Timpeck, do you really think that the options are really this dichotomous? Do you really think anyone who dares ask specific questions about this mythical ‘Free Market” is automatically a “Socialist”?

  48. JWTJr

    PK – I agree that we are far from the theoretical free market economy and will prob never get any closer. I do believe though, that when you compare what we have to the rest of the world, our economy runs ‘freer’ than most. Feel free to disagree with TP about how close we are to the theory. Even though that seems like a futile exercise with no end point.

  49. Piffy!

    [b]I do believe though, that when you compare what we have to the rest of the world, our economy runs ‘freer’ than most.[/b]

    really? Can you possibly give me some context on that statement? i want to know what you mean by ‘freer’, and what countries you are comparing to.

    [b]Even though that seems like a futile exercise with no end point. [/b]

    I dont find it futile, because it pushes me to investigate ideas and theories i can be challenged by. It probably does have no end, though, like a snake eating its tail or charles bukowski’s bar tab. But that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

    Although it is indeed difficult to maintain an actual dialogue with someone who leaves the conversation when challenged (“buh by”).

    I still tend to think that this theoretical concept of a “Free Market” is nonsense in a world where Corporations’ only check and balance is from government regulation based on voter input. i am not one of those who necessarily thinks ‘government’ is a bad word since i interpret it to mean that the people actually have some say in how things are run. And i tend to think that removing said regulation would lead to a corporate slavery most europeans havent seen since the 1400’s.

  50. JWTJr

    “I still tend to think that this theoretical concept of a “Free Market” is nonsense in a world where Corporations’ only check and balance is from government regulation based on voter input. i am not one of those who necessarily thinks ‘government’ is a bad word since i interpret it to mean that the people actually have some say in how things are run. And i tend to think that removing said regulation would lead to a corporate slavery most europeans havent seen since the 1400’s.”

    The only real free market you describe occurred in man’s hunting and gathering phase. If you insist on reliving that, feel free.

    No check and balance? Corps are only at risk from the Gov’t? Obviously you’ve never owned one. True, a few will get bailed out. Most, however, are at risk of going under based on their ideas, not some Gov’t conspiracy.

    The 1400 and Slavery thing is a tad kooky. I certainly helps me gain perspective on your though process.

  51. JWTJr

    I want to hear more about this 1400 thing. A lot of people were living in mud huts then. Do you think that’s where the evil corporations are taking us now?

    You’re sounding a tad like DCJ.

    You realize that your precious government decides the rules on corporations right? You trust the government, but not the rules they make? I want to hear more about that too.

  52. JWTJr

    I think most guys are fine with mud huts. The women may not jump on board as fast.

  53. I think most women in Haiti, or anywhere else would probably rather be living a relatively self-determined agrarian life from a mud hut, than working in a sweat shop making baseballs for the Uncle Sam in the “liberated” Free Trade Zone for 20 cents an hour.

  54. JWTJr

    DCJ – Interesting thought. Maybe you should create a poll and see for sure before you restructure their economy.

  55. What, is the right thing to do an opinion poll? Do you think we did a poll before invaded and restructured their economy the last three times?

    Here is a great piece in the Baltimore Chronicle about the ways America has been invading and restructuring Haiti’s economy for the last 100 years:

    http://baltimorechronicle.com/2010/011410Floyd.shtml

    The earthquake there is a tragedy, to be sure. It is a tragedy that could not have been averted based on the immutable laws of nature. However, no one seems to realize, much less care about, the American foreign policy tragedy that Haiti has been enduring for a century now. I am sure an opinion poll would probably reveal unanimous disdain for America’s constant selfish “restructuring” of their economy.

    “But you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears, take the rag away from your face. Now ain’t the time for your tears.”

    If you really cared, you should have been crying long ago … but it ain’t your fault, this history is not discussed in yuor highschool geography class or world history class. And it will not be discussed in most news papers today, with a few exceptions, and it certainly won’t be discussed by Chris Matthews or Michelle Obama on the boob tube.

  56. travelah

    DCJ,
    Perhaps you could share your opnion regariding the dramatic differences between Haiti and the Dominican Republic? They share the same island, natural resources, similar heritage … why such differences between the two neighbor nations?

  57. Hmmmm … I wonder what my main man Barry Goldwater would say about that. Let me look into it. Believe it or not, Travellah, you have really turned me on to the merits of Goldwater conservatism! I don’t agree with all of his positions, but I am finding that I agree with many more of them than I thought I would.

  58. travelah

    Goldwater was a great man …. a sound conservative and a pragmatic social libertarian.

  59. Goldwater was pro-choice, pro-gay rights – he once said, “you don’t need to be straight to be in the army, you just need to shoot straight.” – & he thought Richard Nixon was the most dishonest man he ever met.

    In a paper he wrote in 1961 he suggested that The “ultimate objective” of American foreign policy is to foster the largest measure possible of peace, freedom, and economic prosperity around the world. I am trying to figure out where that would put him in regards to our abuse of Haiti. My guess is that if you extend his libertarian anti-big government interference philosophy to the people of Haiti, he would look askance at our invasion of this country for the monetary enrichment of a few U.S. corporations.

  60. JWTJr

    “What, is the right thing to do an opinion poll? Do you think we did a poll before invaded and restructured their economy the last three times?”

    Just because they didn’t doesn’t mean you shouldn’t. Or do you know best for them?

  61. Just because they didn’t doesn’t mean you shouldn’t.

    I am not sure what you mean by that statement. Do you mean that just because we did not do an opinion poll before we invaded the first time, that we should have done one? Do you think that would have made any difference to the corporations that pushed us in there?

    Do you want to know if I know best for Haitians, or humanity in general? I will extend your question to mean the latter, since Haitians are human beings and therefore part and parcel of the whole of humanity. Human societies don’t usually fare well under invasions and occupations. I think this is plain to see this if you study history, whether you examine the Nazis sweeping through Europe, or Mussolini in Ethiopia or Japanese in China or the USA in Vietnam, Nicaragua, Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan or Haiti.

    (If I don’t know what is best for them, what on earth makes you think the individuals who run the US corporations that sponsored the invasion know what is best for them?)

  62. JWTJr

    (If I don’t know what is best for them, what on earth makes you think the individuals who run the US corporations that sponsored the invasion know what is best for them?)

    DJC – I never said they did know what was best. It sounds to me like you are saying you do … without asking them first.

  63. When you said just because they did not do an opinion poll, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have. You were implying that the US Corporations that promoted and greatly benefitted from the invasions did not do an opinion poll before we invaded and turned them all into free trade zone slaves but that they probably should have. I can only assume that you are logical person and if you are going to ask me if I know what is best for them, you would also ask the corporations the same question. Do you think they knew what was best for Haitians when they invaded?

  64. Yeah, but, you can be sure those same corporations are gonna return Haiti’s call today. This quake is yet another perfect opportunity for the disaster capitalists of the Milton Friedman school of economics to further restructure the pummeled Haitian economy. Unlike with a democratically elected leader that aims to do better for his people, in the case of an earthquake or Tsunami, no military invasion or US backed coup is necessary.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/14/naomi_klein_issues_haiti_disaster_capitalism

  65. Mister Blister

    “Excuse me, but I saw that red Toyota truck parked in your driveway all night long. Did she spend the night? Oh. She’s a little young, isn’t she? Aren’t you married? Also I noticed you were gone last week, I could tell because you didn’t open and close your windows like you normally do. I also noticed you had what appeared to be 100 midget prostitutes over last month…”

    “Look I’M GAY, okay. My wife is GAY. We don’t have sex!! We sleep with other people! We are only married because you people can’t mind your own business!!! I only attend your church because that is the only way I seem to be able to get a McJob in this town!!”

    “Oh… well gosh… You know the Bible says Homosexuality is an ABOMINATION!!!”

    “Yeah it says the same thing about eating pork and shellfish, ya hypocrite!”

    “Well, yes, but Jesus loves him some NC BBQ and shrimp! And FOOTBALL, hoo boy! Jesus loves him some football almost as much as he likes kicking ass in Iraq! Praise Jesus and pass the 700 Club!”

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