Why insult blue-collar workers?

What’s wrong with this picture? There is a history-making Democratic primary being contested in our state, and Hillary Clinton is insulting blue-collar workers. The media claims that her main support is from older women and blue-collar workers, while Barack Obama is being supported by the younger generation, African-Americans and the so-called latte group (those who are middle- to upper-class with college degrees).

The implication here is very clear. Clinton—with the mainstream media reinforcing this assumption—is claiming allegiance from these blue-collar workers and is assuming that these workers will vote for her because they aren’t educated enough to actually consider the important issues such as Iraq, health care, the economy and the environment. Thus her emphasis on non-issues such as “bitter gate.”

Let me make this very clear! Being a blue-collar worker should not imply that one is not intelligent. Circumstance and choice, much more often than not, decide what one chooses to do for work. There is no doubt in my mind that blue-collar workers will make their choice for president of the United States based on knowing and understanding the important issues, and thus, will vote for the candidate who is better equipped to deal with these issues. They will not be persuaded by old-school rhetoric—which implies that they aren’t smart enough to understand what’s really at stake for this country in this year’s presidential election.

— Michael Simon
Asheville

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103 thoughts on “Why insult blue-collar workers?

  1. entopticon

    Excellent points by Michael Simon.

    Hillary Clinton actually has a long history of insulting the working class. At a Camp David meeting in 1995, when the subject of eroding support from Southern working class whites came up, Hillary said “Screw ’em.”

    She even went on to say, “You don’t owe them a thing, Bill. They’re doing nothing for you; you don’t have to do anything for them.”

    This has been verified by at least three major Democratic advisors. The full story can be seen in this article on the Huffington Post:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/16/hillary-clinton-on-workin_n_97017.html

    Renowned Harvard political scientist Theda Skocpol was at the same meeting and said:

    “Hillary Clinton was among the most cold-blooded analysts in attendance. She spoke of ordinary voters as if they were a species apart, and showed interest only in the political usefulness of their choices — usefulness to the Clinton administration, that is.”

  2. emmi

    That is the most biased piece of drivel I’ve ever heard.

    entopticon can pass on all the propaganda they want about some “screw em” comment- the truth is, the proponents of that have their own agendas.

    Let’s concentrate on what can be proven- and is relevant to THIS election and is current:

    Obama said:

    “….But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there’s not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

    Further- it is Senator Obama who wishes to erode middle America’s civil liberties.

    Obama is an elitist who wishes to curb our 2nd Amendment rights to bear arms. He consistently lies about his stance and his voting record on the issue- even during the ABC debate- he was asked by Gibbons about the 1996 and 2004 questionnaires with his own handwriting on it, stating that he supports the “BAN on the manufacture, sale and possession of ALL firearms”. Here is the document:

    http://www.politico.com/static/PPM43_080328_obama_iviquestionaire_091096.html

    We don’t need a president who looks down on the American people as “clinging” and desperate. He just thinks he’s too good for everyone and wants to erode MORE civil liberties, he is THIS close to being a COMMUNIST!

  3. bobaloo

    Your letter has no factual basis. You even admit the media is pushing the “blue-collar” line, then go on to declare Clinton is a raving elitist.

    Why didn’t you just say you’re an Obama supporter so you could be clear?

    If you really meant what you said about the blue-collar middle class, you would have excoriated Obama’s claim that people cling to guns and religion and are xenophobes and racists because of economic situation.

  4. entopticon

    emmi… that is a pretty bizarre rant for you to be making in light of the above Hillary quotes that you referenced.

    It is either extremely ignorant or extremely disingenuous of you to call it propaganda considering that the story was verified by several Clinton advisors.

    Have you even bothered to look at Obama’s record on 2nd amendment rights verses Hillary’s? Clearly not, or you would not be making such misguided accusations. Try researching the issues a bit first next time.

    Close to being a “COMMUNIST”? Ahhh, I see now. You are just another right wing extremist plugging for Hillary in order to destroy the Democratic party.

  5. travelah

    Whether Hillary Clinton is a friend of the working class in this country (those who actually WORK for a living)is questionable. What is not questionable is that Obama is an eletist leftist with no substantial ties to labor or the middle working class in this country. So when an Obama activist raises issues regarding labor one can only wonder what he is drinking. As Pennsylvania showed, Obama has little support among the groups the opening letter is discussing. I believe the truth of the matter is Obama is an anti-labor racist wrapped up in admiration of a racist hate-mongering church and pastor as well as an unrepentant terrorist bomber. His pastor stated it well. Obama is saying what politicians must say in order to get votes
    Imagine the putrid vitriol that would fly out of the mouths of the leftists if there was a Republican candidate that was a member of Fred Phelps crackpot group of hate-mongers? The leftists want a pass of Obama and they are not going to get it (and the REAL campaign hasn’t even started yet!).

    I am guessing NC is becoming to close to call when it was a double digit lock just a short while ago.

  6. NC Granny

    emmi-
    I’m not a member of the “hard core base of the Democratic Party.” I’m a registered Independent who wants NO increase from the present tax on capital gains because I deal in personal real estate holdings. But Americans have “played capitalism” by Republican rules until too many are raw and bloody from it. Evidently, you consider yourself one of the “winners” and that’s fine. But with maturity should come some degree of empathy with one’s fellow creatures… unless one is a reptilian type sociopath. So, I’m definitely keeping “warm, fuzzy” Obama at the front of the class by voting for him because he is exactly what this country needs now. Ergo: your hypothesis falls flat. Try moving beyond STINGY.

  7. NC Granny

    travelah-
    “I believe the truth of the matter is Obama is an anti-labor racist… blah, blah, blah”

    I don’t really think you’re dumb enough to actually believe all that but are simply trying to distract from the pathetic Republican record. But if you do, fine. Go vote for McCain or WHO-EVER.

  8. entopticon

    travelah, you are just too funny sometimes. I don’t know where you right wingers come up with the stuff you come up with.

    Obama has a stellar record on labor issues. Obama spent years of his life working for $8k a year, which was raised by church groups, helping out of work steel workers in Chicago.

    Keep trying to make it all about Reverend Wright, who is not even connected to Obama’s campaing or policies in any way. It’s actually getting to be pretty entertaining in an absurd kind of way.

  9. NC Granny

    emmi-

    “Obama is an elitist who wishes to curb our 2nd Amendment rights to bear arms”

    Child, my family has a history of hunting for our food. We’ve got antlers hanging on the den wall to show for it and guns galore. But we’re not afraid of Obama. The problem with Republicans, or pretend Democrats, is that you’re afraid of EVERYTHING! That’s why your kind elects drugstore cowboys like Reagan and Bush. The problem is, your paranoia drags the rest of us down, as well. So why don’t you just crawl into bed and pull the covers over your little head ’til the election is over.

  10. entopticon

    A particularly relevant quote from TX superdelegate John Patrick, who endorsed Obama today:

    “Senator Barack Obama has spent a lifetime standing up for American workers, and he will be a crucial voice for us in the White House. Senator Obama chose a career as an organizer on the streets of Chicago, fighting for working families who lost their jobs, specifically those families in neighborhoods devastated by steel plant closings. He has consistently opposed unfair trade deals that fail to offer protection to American workers – like NAFTA. Senator Obama has a real plan to put money back in the pockets of working families by restoring the manufacturing base in America.”

  11. travelah

    NC Granny, you help vote in that racist Obama and you are going to see your capital gain taxes go up … same thing with Hillary. They are two peas in the same pod.

  12. entopticon

    travelah, would you please give a legitimate example of Obama being a racist? Not some right wing guilt by association bs; I’m talking about a legitimate example of Obama being a racist.

    At this point there are plenty of examples of McCain’s spiritual advisors saying ridiculously bigoted things.

    Try to make an actual point without resorting to pathetically desperate guilt by association tactics. The truth is, Obama isn’t a racist and if you don’t know that you haven’t been paying attention.

  13. NC Granny

    travelah-

    I guess I didn’t make clear that I’m FULLY aware my capital gain taxes will rise when Obama’s elected… and they’ll be considerable. I pondered it, grieved over it, and decided it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make for the good of country. That’s what you call PATRIOTIC… like serving in the military, in case the term is unfamiliar. Like I told scared little emmi, try to get beyond STINGY.

    Obama racist? As much as he loved his white mama and grandparents? I’m sure you’ve guessed that I’m white. I live out here in the heart of Madison County… especially known for its racism. If a half black boy is racist, believe me, he’s justified. But you’re not really worried about Obama’s racism, now are you. You’re just trying to distract from what’s really ailing the country, the economic and social plague brought down on us by extremely short-sighted, extremely greedy Republicans. You’re not fooling anybody.

  14. nuvue

    Thank you NC Granny
    Couldn’t say it better myself, We are also going to have to get our heads out of (middle east) sand and accept the fact that detroit has been foisting gas guzzlers on us for too long. The days of cheap fuel are over and we must be more responsible with our limited resources in order for future generations to have a way of life.
    Trav, how is that Prius of yours??

  15. emmi

    tsk, tsk.

    I am a moderate Democrat. not a hard core right winger…lol.

    One point- too much flip flopping from Obama for me, on many issues including gun control.

    He lied to the entire US at his last debate- when asked directly by Gibbons about his hand writing on the 96 and 04 questionnaire(s). He denied that his handwriting appeared there- and denied that he supported the total “ban on the manufacture, sale and possession of all firearms”

    Here is the link to the document:

    http://www.politico.com/static/PPM43_080328_obama_iviquestionaire_091096.html

    This is but one example of his lies- serious lies. If I had time, I could site at least 50 others.

    Aside from his lying- about everything from his family history to his real votes on Iraq- he’s just tooo far left for me.

    I’m just as pro-choice as any Dem but, even the staunchest proponents draw the line at partial birth abortion, which Obama supports, and his opposition to BAIPA- is DISGUSTING.

    He is not a uniter, he is a divider.

    GO HILLARY 08

  16. NC Granny

    nuvue-

    Americans have been riding high on the hog for too long now. We should have been paying $5 or $6 a gallon like the rest of the world before now. That would have set us on the right track in all respects, and we might have been avoiding some of these bad storms tearing up the country.

  17. bobaloo

    NC Granny,
    With all due respect, that’s because other countries tax the heck out of gas, with the tax being as much as 75% of the price.
    http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

    Gas prices hitting that level in the US will do nothing but cause misery and poverty. The worst problem would be food costs, which are already skyrocketing.

    I’m not sure what kind of right track you’re hoping for.
    I’m comfortable with current gas prices (though many aren’t), but if it increases much more the burden on my family could be unmanageable.

  18. travelah

    NC Granny, wishing for higher taxes given over to a government that squanders it’s resources (both Democrat and Republican) isn’t patriotic. It’s flat out idiotic. If you wish to pay more and be patriotic, by all means, write the biggest check you want to the IRS. They will glady take every dime of your income. As for myself, I expressed my patriotism by actually putting on a uniform and serving my country and paying my taxs on income actually earned without looking for some government subsidy to bail me out. Go ahead and give more than you should but at the same time, stay out of my pockets. It’s not yours to take.

    A “half black boy” being racist is ok? Boy, if that isn’t a loaded statement. Ha! Granny, I have no place for racist hate mongers whether they are white or black or as you put it a “half black boy”. Granny, if you keep drinking that leftist koolaid, you won’t have to worry about paying capital gains taxes at all.

  19. travelah

    entop, Audacity of Hope, the racist hate-monger Rev’s book, was the spiritual guidebook of sorts for your smooth leftist candidate. Where do you think Obama came up with the phrase audacity of hope? Up until very recently, Obama claimed he bounced his ideas and thoughts off his “spiritual mentor” to make sure he was on the right track. If thats not evidence of an absolute bankruptcy of judgement and questionable character, nothing is.

  20. travelah

    entop … to clarify, Audacity of Hope was originally Wrights sermon rather than his book

  21. NC Granny

    bobaloo-

    Use your imagination. “Right track” meaning that if gas had been much more expensive all along, by this time we would already be utilizing better designs for our communities, i.e. living nearer work and shopping, incorporating and using more effective mass transportation, and designing dwellings to utilize, economically, reasonable alternative energy sources like solar panels on all roofs that would supplement the grid as well as supply “plug in” vehicles… etc. I regret that we seniors were so absorbed for too long in our individual situations that we didn’t get the big picture sooner. In time to help families like yours avoid what’s coming down the pike. But I’m afraid it’s unavoidable at this point and will only get considerably worse before the situation resolves itself. Playing catch-up is going to be painful for young families and I’m really sorry for that. The only advice I can give is to hunker down, grow your own garden, get a milk goat and some chickens if you have any room, install some solar panels… and pray.

  22. entopticon

    Again travelah, it is pretty sad and pathetic for you to constantly call Obama a racist, when you couldn’t even come up with ONE single example of him being a racist!

    Instead, you first claim that Wright wrote the Audacity of Hope, then apparently when you fouind out that whatever right wing sources you were deferring to steered you wrtong about something you clearly know next to nothing about, you changed your story to the fact that it was Obama’s book and the name was taken from a sermon of Wright’s.

    A book title, the Audacity of Hope, does not count as evidence of racism. It is ridiculous that you keep accusing him of racism and you couldn’t come up with one single example. Your guilt-by-association bs is nothing more than a pathetic smokescreen.

  23. NC Granny

    travelah-

    Calm down. You might have a heart attack. No one said I wished for higher taxes… quite the contrary. That doesn’t come close to my statement. You always put words in other peoples’ mouths? I believe the more taxes the government collects and the bigger the pot, the fatter the crooks that are drawn to it. Cheney/Halliburton’s “no bid” contracts make that point clear, along with all the unnecessary ear marks, Republican and Democrat, and extravagant military contracts for faulty equipment. There’s no getting around that our government absolutely squanders the people’s hard earned tax dollars and I’m for holding those guilty completely responsible to the point of criminal prosecution. But how likely is that with Bush’s justice department and pro-corporate court appointees?

    I’d much prefer a flat tax of ten percent and am sure that would suffice to keep everything running better than it is now. But if a higher capital gains tax is the price I have to personally pay to just begin to pull the most wasteful, crooked bunch of fools in the history of this country out of all our pockets, it’s well worth it. I believe Obama is the best bet to start that process. It’s a fantasy to still pretend that Republicans are the party of small government, reasonable budget and thrift. Although I remain an Independent, I’ve watched this country consistently function more soundly economically, under Democratic rule.

    That said, I will add that one reason it did so under the Clinton Administration is because of the STRICTLY SHORT TERM economic boon that was destined to quickly turn into a LONG TERM economic bust for the next administration, namely Bush’s, after the dust settled and the reality of NAFTA set in… all accurately predicted by Perot and too many others. So the robust economy Clinton claims credit for under his Administration is as usual, only more of his smoke and mirrors. And Bush’s complete failure is not ALL his fault.

    Now, if you consider my voting for Obama as my getting into your pockets because he’s going to raise the capital gains tax, then that’s a problem I can’t help. Otherwise, you’re making no sense in saying what’s in your pockets isn’t mine to take. I don’t want whatever’s in your pockets. Sounds like you’ve been drinking kool-aid.

    If you’ve served the country, good for you. I’ve got numerous family members that have as well, and none of us have taken government handouts, either.

    Until you’ve walked in a black man’s shoes, JUDGE NOT! Frankly, next to Reverend Wright, you’re the most racist sound I’ve heard lately. But I’ve wasted enough time on your game of distraction.

  24. travelah

    entop, you are all hot air. I typed the word book instead of sermon and immediately corrected it as soon as I read what was posted. It is absurd for you to make such unsubstantiated allegations. The “Rev Wright’s” sermons are full of poison and it is a fact Obama sat under the teaching of that racist for 20 years. Nobody sits in that environment trusting in such a man that long, then having the “audacity” to claim he didn’t know what he was being taught. He either is in agreement with the long expressed viewpoint of that church’s pastor and elders or he is an ignoramous unfit for public office. You take your pick. It is quite telling that people of your ilk would rush to condemn any politician associated with another crackpot religious group such as Fred Phelps (perhaps justifiably) yet you simmer in your crocodile tears of indignation when one of your own ilk is exposed in a like manner. 20 years of association is not a fallacious comparison. It is an astute observation of the man’s character and judgement or lack there of. Your problem is you have latched onto a “sociopathetic” situation and it’s pinching your toes.

    By all means, put this joker at the top of your ticket. Whether elected or not, he will do fine in dismantling the coalitions that have identified the Democrat party for decades. Welcome to the chaos, much of it your own making.

  25. travelah

    NC Granny, your words were:

    “I guess I didn’t make clear that I’m FULLY aware my capital gain taxes will rise when Obama’s elected… and they’ll be considerable. I pondered it, grieved over it, and decided it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make for the good of country. That’s what you call PATRIOTIC… like serving in the military, in case the term is unfamiliar. Like I told scared little emmi, try to get beyond STINGY.”

    That sure to heck looks like you are advocating higher taxes and you are willing to sacrifice for it. Well, start sacrificing and begin writing bigger checks to the IRS. You do not have to wait for a leftist like Obama to steal our hard earned money. You can give it right now. What are you waiting for?

    As for me being a racist, thats an idiotic statement. You cannot paste a single racist comment made by me in any forum anywhere. Now, I CAN point to Obama’s spiritual mentor for 20 years and point out a racist hate-monger in doing so.

    Back to your taxes thing for a moment. Let’s compare two confused statements from you in one post:

    “Calm down. You might have a heart attack. No one said I wished for higher taxes… quite the contrary”

    “Now, if you consider my voting for Obama as my getting into your pockets because he’s going to raise the capital gains tax, then that’s a problem I can’t help.”

    It looks like you cannot make up your mind which pocket to rob. Like I stated earlier, if you keep drinking that leftist koolaid, you will not have to worry about paying any taxes on gains.

  26. entopticon

    travelah… it is just too hilarious that you still can’t point out one single example of Obama being a racist even though you have made the accusation repeatedly.

    All you can do is blather on with your asinine guilt-by-association nonsense. Truly pathetic.

    Seriously, I don’t expect much, but an introductory level course on racial issues in America would do you a world of good because the ideas you are trying to pawn off as informed and insightful would get you laughed out of a 101 class on the subject.

  27. travelah

    entop, perhaps the gist of the matter just goes over the top of your head or perhaps I am conversing with a teenager who has no real world experience in these matters. In any event, you have not offered anything other than the expected Rovian burst of hot air. I do not see that you bring anything else to the discussion other than another internet browsed pasting of what you believe drives home another issue regarding your irrational target, Hillary Clinton.

  28. entopticon

    Actually travelah, I am 40 and have studied racial issues at both the undergraduate and Master’s level, among other things.

    I have no real world experience in these matters? How many people like Wright have you taken the time to get to know? How many Black Nationalist meetings have you attended? My answer to both of those questions is quite a few.

    When I paste things into my posts, they are generally facts, quotes, and references; three things that you are completely unfamiliar with if your posts are any indication.

    Do realize that every time you write another post, and still fail to provide one single example of Obama being a racist, despite your claims, you just become more and more pathetically ridiculous?

    I have to admit, it just gets funnier and funnier, so keep up the good work.

  29. travelah

    entop, being a Christian evangelical and apologist, I have encountered and discussed issues of faith with pastors of every stripe. Wright does not represent the “black church”. He represents a segment of this thing you call Black Nationalism. It is a racist and bigoted loose association that has nothing to do with scriptural Christianity and everything to do pasting Marxist-separatist ideals onto spiritual themes. Since you claim to be well acquainted with Black Nationalism, you would also know that Obama is a black nationalist through his twenty year association with and mentoring by the leader of a black nationalist “church”. He is by any sensible definition an active participant in a racist hate-mongering organization.

    Rather than attend “Black Nationalist” meetings, I am of the opinion they need to be monitored and observed much like the Klan, John Birch and Nation of Islam.

    Thank you for adding to the fodder.

  30. entopticon

    Why am I not surprised that you are an apologist? Call yourself a Christian if you want, but since there is no such thing as a Christian conservative, you are anything but. If there was ever a bleeding heart liberal, it was Jesus.

    Last I checked, to be a Christian meant to strive to be Christlike. There is not one thing that is Christian about being a conservative, or a right wing libertarian for that matter.

    Obama is a Black Nationalist?!? His church was a Black Nationalist church?!? You say the most hilarious things. You clearly don’t even have the slightest idea what it is. It cracks me up how you rail about things that you know virtually nothing about.

  31. entopticon

    Thanks for the concern, but don’t you worry, I just got back from the market. I got grapefruit; I hope that works for you.

  32. MP3Lover

    Obama’s church is based on James Cone’s Black Liberation Theology.
    VERY RADICAL STUFF.
    Here’s a sample:
    “Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community. . . . Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.”
    Quoted from the Wall Street Journal
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120585801828545495.html?mod=loomia&loomia_si=t0:a16:g2:r2:c0.12717

  33. MP3Lover

    Entopticon: You said you wanted “one single example of Obama being a racist’?
    Unfortunately, Sen. Obama seems to pick and choose his racial point of view depending on his audience. In Sumter, SC on January 24th–he quoted from a speech by Malcolm X (actually shown in the movie with Denzel Washington) about being “bamboozled & hoodwinked”–he has since used the speech at least on one other occasion. His AA audience clearly recognized the MX reference. Whether this is offensive because it is another example of plagiarizing or because he was quoting someone whose most famous speech was “The Ballot box or the Bullet”–it is pretty outrageous that NO ONE in the media has ever taken him to task for it.
    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuB_W8o_UsU:
    -” for a short snippet).

    His campaign co-chair and close friend Jesse Jackson Jr. likened Obama’s win in Iowa over Clinton in a weird ‘OJ murdering Nicole’ thing to a Post reporter that has never been apologized for or explained. Here’s the link-look for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDaO7N-JujU&feature=related

  34. tatuaje

    travelah….

    Do you respect the life and work of Martin Luther King Jr.?

    Was he a racist?

    Just curious….

    Oh, and before you start calling me an Obama supporter, some crazy lefty communist racist etc, etc, etc, be forewarned that I back NONE of the candidates….

    So…..do you respect the life and work of Martin Luther King Jr.?

  35. William P Miller

    I disagree with the letter writer. Hillary does care about blue collar workers. This is clear to see if a person is paying attention. Obama represents the latte liberals, the blacks who are understandably proud one of their own is running, and the younger rabble rouser element who just want to “rage against the machine”. Obama is a light weight experience wise and would be a disaster as president.

    Hillary has the gravitas and the guts to change what needs to be changed, and the wisdom to know what to keep, which is most everything. Obama doesn’t have a clue. “Change” alone doesn’t get it.You know there was a guy in Germany in the early 1930s who advocated “change”,and we all know how much of a disaster that was. Vote Hillary!

  36. travelah

    tatuaje,
    I have mixed feelings about Dr. King. I appreciate his great bravery and fortitude he demonstrated in the face of tremendous adversity. His was a voice that was needed at that particular place in history and being a Christian pastor who recognized the value of all human life, his means were most appropriate. His was the most recognizable voice among many seeking an honest redress of legitimate grievances. His murder was particularly horrendous given the mission carved out for him.
    Now,at the same time, I am not proud of his later move into a political realm much unrelated to what should have been his first love, his Christian ministry. Like many of his generation, he allowed what should have been his work for Christ turned into a quest in a worldly politic. It detracted from his earlier work.
    Was King a racist? From the body of his public commentary, the answer is a decisive no. His focus, his rhetoric and commentary was beyond question inclusive. Did he stumble occasionally in his own biases? Of course he did as we all do but the central thrust of his ministry and body of work was to break down the barriers erected on the basis of the color of a man’s skin.
    I hope that helped address your inquiry.

  37. tatuaje

    travelah…

    A very eloquent response….

    The reason I asked was your characterization of the Rev. Wright as a racist in an earlier post. And as a Black Nationalist. I came across an interview with Jonathan L. Walton, an ordained minister, expert on African-American religion and assistant professor of religious studies at the University of California at Riverside, at Salon.com. http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/05/03/black_church/

    In thinking about the hubbub surrounding the Rev. Wright in the mainstream media (and in this thread), I couldn’t help but think that “spin” (from all sides) was taking control.

    In this interview, Rev. Walton compares the Rev. Wright to MLK and I think his comments and views are refreshing. I hope that you, and other posters on this thread, take the time to read this interview. All too often we let our opinions be swayed by media that does an incomplete job.

    I’m not saying that I agree, or disagree, with statements attributed to the Rev. Wright. I’m simply trying to look at this with fresh eyes, and ears, not completely controlled by what the mainstream media feeds me. And yes, I am well aware that Salon.com will be considered “leftist” by most. Be that as it may, the Rev. Walton’s interview should not, in all fairness, be labeled “leftist”. A cursory review of his background, accomplishments, etc. lead me to view him as an extremely competent scholar.

    So before we start slinging around the label of “racist”, an extremely serious charge, we might, all of us, try to realize how little we know of the people we are trying to denigrate. The people in the public forum as well as people who post at this website.

    Once again I will reiterate, for the benefit of any posters who will try to use my post to back up their particular candidate, I support NONE of the candidates…..

  38. travelah

    tatuaje, Thank you for your reply. I have to state up front that I am not an admirer of Dr. Walton with regard to his overall view of Christian theology and his apologetic for black liberation theology. What he brings to the discussion is an in-house support with several social assumptions regarding Mr. Wright. His attempt to portray him in some fashion as aligned with Dr. King’s later politics is disingenuous of him even though I believe he is sincere in his considerations. Dr. King, even in his poorly advised tilt toward leftist politics, was not a racist nor did he thrive on the rhetoric of a racist mind. Mr. Wright’s commentary on the other hand is premised on an enmity toward white people, a false set of allegations and a desire to fuel a polemic that feeds his own narcissism. While Dr. Walton deserves some respect for his forthrightness and his desire to shed light on his worldview, I see him as too close to the fire to offer an opinion that lacks a bias of it’s own. He is correct with regard to Dr. King’s growing embrace of a leftist black liberation theology toward the end of his life and it was that observation that gave me mixed feelings regarding King.
    In any event, I realize that supporters of “black nationalism and liberation theology” are going to make comparisons to Dr. King because it is in their interest to do so. However, any comparisons must be made on the basis of speculation with regard to what Dr. King may have held to in 1975, 1990 or today if still alive. To focus on a bent towards radicalism that he possessed in 1968 and not in 1963 is not a good service to understanding these issues. Radicalism was much akin to an infection in 1968 and most of those caught up in it distanced themselves from it as the situation matured and better minds prevailed.
    Now, as for Mr. Wright, I am convinced his views are indeed racist and he promotes a kind of hatred and perpetuates open wounds that has no place in any ministry that calls itself Christian, regardless of the ethnic makeup of it’s congregation. This has been his focus for years. How this relates to Obama is that he is up to his eyeballs in this rhetoric after 20 years of spiritual mentoring. He cannot deny this and at the same time escape the condemnation of absolutely horrible judgment and character, traits unbefitting for the office of the Presidency. That is my point in this. We need a President with good judgment and character and this man’s “spiritual condition” lacks both.

  39. entopticon

    MP3Lover… Seriously it is time to lay of the MP3’s because they seem to be rotting your brain. Are you part of a right wing hate group? Your racist rhetoric fits right in.

    You called Obama a racist for loosely quoting Malcom X?!? I don’t know which right wing extremist website you get your ridiculously bigoted garbage from, but you should take a bath after being in places like that.

  40. travelah

    MP3Lover, not only is Obama being disingenuous quoting a speech from a movie, but his campaign co-chair, Jesse Jackson Jr makes Karl Rove look like a choir boy. Jackson stands accused along with his father of extorting business with threatened boycotts and political action if they did not dole out personal favors. It seems Obama loves to surround himself with shady characters.
    Hillary is looking pretty good, folks.

  41. entopticon

    William P Miller… Comparing Obama to HITLER!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Are you insane?

    If Hillary cares so much about the working class, can you explain why she said, “Screw em. You don’t owe them a thing, Bill. They’re doing nothing for you; you don’t have to do anything for them.”?

    Can you explain why former Clinton advisor and renowned Harvard political scientist Theda Skocpol said:

    “Hillary Clinton was among the most cold-blooded analysts in attendance. She spoke of ordinary voters as if they were a species apart, and showed interest only in the political usefulness of their choices—usefulness to the Clinton administration, that is.”

    Your argument that Obama is less experienced is ludicrous. He has three more years in elected office than she does. He has passed far more bipartisan legislation than she has.

    Hillary may be a lot of things, but an agent of change is sure as heck not one of them. For one thing, he is the ONLY candidate in the race taking money from Washington lobbyists.

    For another, she has virtually no track record of successful, significant bipartisan legislation, which is the ONLY way to enact change in our government.

    Obama is far and away the best choice.

  42. entopticon

    travelah, I have finally figured out your strategy; you are trying to make me die of laughter.

    “Jesse Jackson Jr makes Karl Rove look like a choir boy”? You are killin’ me. That is one of the most absurdly asinine comparisons that I have ever seen.

    it is also just too funny that you said, “Hillary is looking pretty good, folks.”

    Do you seriously think there are Democrats who would take political advice from a right wing extremist nut job like you?

    Do you really think there are actually people who are naive enough not to know that when right wing extremists like you constantly blog for Hillary, they are just trying to destroy the Democratic party?

    My stomach muscles hurt from laughing so hard. All you do is hurt your own cause. Keep up the fine work.

  43. travelah

    entop, I am a middle of the road conservative, far more libertarian socially than most of my Republican friends. You are really out of touch and the reason for that is because the Democrats allow their left wing to dominate their nominating process, people such as yourself who have no clue who and what “middle America” is”. This is as good as a circus.

  44. entopticon

    travelah… I wouldn’t want to be on the middle of the road to where you are going. Be sure to dress lightly.

    You may be a libertarian, but only in your warped mind does that make you a moderate, because you are anything but.

    Harry Potter loves you travelah.

  45. William P Miller

    Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton is clearly the best candidate. Senator Barack Hussein Obama is clearly a lightweight who is way too liberal to be president. This should be the year of the democrat. Let’s choose a winner as our candidate. The clear choice is Senator Clinton.

  46. entopticon

    William P Miller, you are the lightweight, as evidenced by your pathetic race-baiting and foolish arguments.

    Barack Obama does not go by his middle name. You and all of your right wing extremist cohorts insert it in there because you are a despicable bigot trying to fan the flames of xenophobia.

    You may think you are being subtle, but you are transparent and disgraceful.

  47. travelah

    entop, how is it that EVERYBODY who opposes Barack Hussein Obama is a “right wing nut job” or a “right wing extremist”? Do you have a clue that the Democrat Party is split right down the middle and by your uninformed measure, half the Democrats in this country are “right-wing extremists”? This is an example of just how warped the Democrat Party has become. It has leftists activists irrationally attacking large segments of it’s own party. What a pack of fools!

  48. entopticon

    A pack of fools? Sorry travelah, right wing extremists such of you have cornered the market on foolishness.

    Barack Obama does not go by his middle name. You and I both know that you are using it not because you are so fond of it, but because you are a despicable, race-baiting bigot.

    You can try to lie and make something up, but we both know it’s true. Remember travelah, you can’t fool your wrathful, omniscient god, so you are likely going to burn for your race-baiting lies.

  49. travelah

    entop, Do you suppose Barack Hussein Obama is ashamed of his middle name? I am guessing he isn’t but leaves it off for political reasons. Secondly, what does the name Hussein have to do with his race? How about all those right-wing nut jobs in your Party, entop? What are you going to do with the 50% of Kentucky Democrat voters who stated they will not vote for Obama if he is the nominee? Is everybody in Kentucky, PA, WV, and every other state that voted for Hillary just a bunch of right wing wackos discovered hiding out in the Democrat Party for the last 50 years?? How is your leftist black nationalist candidate friend of every one of our enemies going to win the hearts and minds of at least half the Democrats in this country not to mention enough Republicans to to make up for the Democrats who boycott the election? Seriously, your guy might even win but it sure tears the Democrat Party to shreds in doing so … what chaos!

  50. entopticon

    travelah, you and I both know that you do not use Obama’s middle name for any other reason than bigotry.

    It’s not cute or coy to pretend that you were just using it at random. It is a shameful attempt to exploit people’s xenophobia. At least have enough courage to admit it, because your lie is beyond transparent.

    You think you can lie to god travelah? Lying breaks one of the ten commandments, which means you are on your way to a very toasty demise if that wrathful god thing pans out.

  51. travelah

    entop, I think Barack Hussein Obama didn’t fare so well with all those voters for Hillary yesterday. His numbers in Oregon were far lower than the blow away expected. 50% of those voting for Hillary indicated they would not vote for Obama. What is your leftist activist candidate going to do to pull in the voters who are appalled at his left wing appeasement strategies, not to mention his view that having babies is a punishment? He seems quite disconnected from the reality of large blocks of Democrat voters so much so many of them indicate they would rather stay home than vote for him. I think Barack Hussein Obama has quite a problem on his hands. Of course, he might win. Heck, if Hillary Rodham Clinton is not ashamed of her middle name, why should Barack Hussein Obama? I am sure he will take full advantage of it when he meets with his friends in the terrorist sponsor state of Iran.

  52. entopticon

    Am I supposed to take you seriously? You are the most pathetically clownish right-wing extremist imaginable.

    Every time you use Obama’s middle name because it is Hussein, despite the fact that he doesn’t go by his middle name, you prove what an astronomically shameful bigot you are.

    It has nothing to do with being ashamed or not. It is about you trying to drum up xenophobia you pathetically bigoted liar.

    You think you are making some other legitimate points? travelah, you are incapable of making a legitimate point. Your arguments are miraculously asinine.

    Just about any 14 year old who has a baby is going to find it to be an extremely punishing experience.

    Barack Obama won Oregon by MORE than the poll averages, so you are just a liar.

    Obama is friends with the terrorist sponsor state of Iran? Give ONE piece of evidence you lying propagandist. You can’t because all you do is lie.

  53. travelah

    entop, are you having another bad day? You have not addressed how Barack Hussein Obama is going to woo the moderate Democrats who are disgusted with his far left politics. Since March, it’s been all about Hillary Rodham Clinton as far as being in stride.
    Of course Iran is a friend of his. Heck, even Hamas endorses the leftist for President. His own spiritual mentor for the last 20 years even traveled to Libya and of course, don’t forget Obama sharing the cover of Wrights political rag with Louis Farakan. No, Barack Hussein Obama has a LOT of baggage that some core constiuencies of the Democrat Party are not at all comfortable with. Heck, even a majority of Democrats here in WNC didn’t support the guy … of course a majority of Democrats in WNC are right wing nut jobs, right?

  54. entopticon

    travelah the pathetic bigot….

    There are no “moderate Democrats who are disgusted with his far left politics.”

    Obama’s politics are far, far, from being far left. Only a moronic Liebercrat would consider Obama to be far left, and they will mostly be voting for McCain anyway.

    It is hilarious how you act like you know or care anything about Democratic politics. You are pitiful.

    You said: “Of course Iran is a friend of his.”

    So prove it you lying sack of you know what. As usual, you were caught red-handed in a lie because you couldn’t name one single example to support your fabrication.

    According to your bible, the punishment for lying is eternal damnation in a lake of fire. Have fun with that.

  55. travelah

    entop, given that you portray Hillary Rodham Clinton as a stooge of rightwing “neocons”, what else would you use to describe those people who voted for her other than “moderate Democrats”? Perhaps “right-wing nut jobs”? Isn’t that your pet phrase for anybody who opposes your leftist candidate? I supported my charge against Obama through his associations and the company he keeps. I would think the Hamas endorsement should suffice.
    Do you really consider Joe Lieberman to be a moron? That pretty much describes just how far the Democrat Party has drifted in it’s perverse journey. How about the late Patrick Monyhan or Adlei Stevenson whose views were quite similar to those of Lieberman? I do not think you know the first thing about the history of your Party.

  56. entopticon

    travelah, I never said Hillary is a stooge of right-wing neocons. Are you like the guy from the movie Speed, who couldn’t let the bus go under 55 mph, only with lies? Will your head explode if you go a single post without lying? If so, I strongly recommend you try telling the truth sometime.

    Hillary and Obama’s voting records are very, very similar, so the portrait you paint is yet another fabrication.

    No, I don’t think most Hillary supporters are right wing nutjobs, but you certainly are.

    I do think Hillary has been borrowing from the right-wing extremist playbook with her shameful race and class-baiting. That makes her immoral, but she was doing it for her own selfish ends, not the right-wing’s, so she is not as you say, a stooge.

    Joe Lieberman is not a Democrat! He is an Independent that is supporting John McCain for President. He is reviled by Democrats across the board. Your ignorance is astonishing.

    You are calling guilt-by-association rhetoric evidence? Were you dropped on your head as a child? Do you eat lead paint as a hobby? You are an extremely broken, pathetic, bigoted liar with virtually no capacity for reason.

  57. Jon Elliston

    No more name-calling, please. We’re trying to foster a productive dialogue here.

    Please dial down the vitriol, or your comments will be moderated and, if need be, closed out.

    Thank you,

    Jon Elliston
    Managing Editor

  58. entopticon

    It’s SO hard when it comes to travelah, but I will do my best. The absurdity of actually conversing with someone on a liberal weekly’s website who is trying to instigate a race war makes it hard not to let loose a bit.

    It’s a bit like politely saying, “Good evening Mr Goebbels, I really think you should reconsider your campaign on the merits of making lamps out of Jewish people,” but I’ll make more of an effort.

  59. entopticon

    It turns out that travelah’s first choice for President, Rudolph Giuliani, mismanaged his campaign funds to the tune of $3.1 million and now his creditors are after him. Thank goodness he never got the chance to do the same thing to our economy.

    Also turns out evangelist McCain backer John Hagee was recorded arguing that Adolf Hitler was just doing god’s work by exterminating the Jews. Apparently guilt-by-association only applies if the candidate is black according to the likes of travelah.

  60. travelah

    entop, It is usually the case that when politicians have to drop out of a race they are often short of funds.
    Before you attack another person, you should get your facts correct. Hagee has had a long standing pro-Israel ministry for years, some saying to a fault with regard to his theology.

    As for my choices, I am hoping Bobby Jindal makes it onto McCain’s ticket. He is absolutely brilliant, forward thinking and anybody who would accuse him of being a bigoted racist would prove themselves to be a fool.

  61. entopticon

    Seriously travelah, your compulsive lying is outright bizarre at times.

    I should get MY facts correct?!? You crack me up. Hagee was recorded on tape saying it! It has been all over the news. It is an inarguable fact.

    What part of thou shalt not lie don’t you understand?

    Here is a link that discusses it: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/21/mccain-backer-hagee-said_n_102892.html

    You think it is a sign of successful money management to end your campaign $3.1 million in debt? Your rationalizations are just hilarious.

    Haven’t you heard travelah… It is an incontrovertible fact that the head of Bobby Jindal’s church is a former Hitler Youth that has been implicated in the coverup of thousands of child sex abuse cases.

    More importantly, Bobby Jindal has a horrible environmental record. The League of Conservation Voters gave him a lifetime score of 7%, which is absolutely abysmal.

    Not surprisingly, ultra-right-wing extremist Rush Limbaugh is a huge fan of Jindal’s.

  62. travelah

    entop, I have heard Hagee’s remarks and he framed the issue improperely and is being crucified for it. His comments should be taken and understood from a theological perspective but this is over your head. Hagee should have known better. I do not agree with his assesment. Secondly, McCain has no connections to Hagee other than through Hagee’s endorsement. He is not McCain’s pastor or spiritual mentor.
    Campaigns: Most candidates who run for office and do not succeed at the Presidential level are often in the red after they withdraw. It is often what forces them out i.e. John Edwards. For a more balanced and honest assesment of teh debt situation, this post will help.
    http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/
    Hopefully, he will be able to settle his campaign debt reasonably quick.
    Jindal: Now, you are anti-Catholic as well. Perhaps you need to apply the same logic to your fellow Democrat Roman Catholics such as .. er Ted Kennedy, the darling of your liberal left? Your insults know no bounds.
    Jindal has been Gov of Louisiana for only a few months and a one term Rep before that. His Louisiana exec office experience was with social services and as head of the University system. On what basis would anybody rate him on environmental matters? Jindal has a lot of fans. That is probably the reason he was elected to Congress and the Governors office in his home state.

  63. entopticon

    travelah, travelah, travelah, you are just too funny the way you do the smae thing every time…. squirm around and throw up a smokescreen when you were caught in a lie.

    Theology is over my head? I must have forgotten that when I was studying to be a minister. As usual, your argument is incoherent. Do you honestly think your weak rationalizations hold water? What a joke.

    Hagee said it. It is what it is. His words weren’t slightly offensive, they were an absolute disgrace. As one political commentator described it, on a 1 to 10 scale of of offensiveness, Hagee’s comments were a 20.

    John McCain actively sought his endorsement. John McCain’s self proclaimed long-time spiritual advisor, Rod Parsley, is one of the few people on Earth who may be even more offensive than Hagee, so as usual, your argument holds no water at all.

    You really do like to make excuses for the unexcusable travelh. Bad financial management is bad financial management, whether it’s from Giuliani or Hillary. It doesn’t matter if it’s common, and by the way, as the article you cited states, huge campaign debts like his are actually novel.

    I am no fan of the Catholic Church, or Protestant churches for that matter, but that is irrelevant. My irrefutable point is that Bobby Jindal is every bit of guilt-by-association as Obama, and then some.

    The only reason you point out the speck in Obama’s eye, while ignoring the log in your own is because of your bigotry, which like most bigots, you are willfully unaware of. David Duke doesn’t think he is a bigot either, but you have a whole lot in common.

    As far as Jindal’s deplorable environmental record, here are the facts from your favorite site, Wikipedia:

    “In 2006, Jindal sponsored the Deep Ocean Energy Resources Act (H.R. 4761), a bill to eliminate the moratorium on offshore oil and gas drilling over the U.S. outer continental shelf, which prompted the watchdog group Republicans for Environmental Protection to issue him an environmental harm demerit.[38] Jindal’s 2006 rating from that organization was -4, among the lowest in Congress. The nonpartisan League of Conservation Voters also censured Jindal for securing passage of H.R. 4761 in the House of Representatives; the group rated his environmental performance that year at seven percent, citing anti-environment votes on 11 out of 12 critical issues. Jindal’s lifetime score from the League of Conservation Voters is seven percent.”

  64. travelah

    entop, if you were studying for the ministry you must not have paid attention to the truth that the natural man has no understanding of spiritual things. In any event, you did not make it.
    Parsley is not McCain’s long time spiritual advisor. McCain has been a long time Baptist in Arizona, remember? Parsley is a hardcore Pentecostal. If you were studying for the ministry, you would understand the many differences. What seminary were you attending?

    Jindal’s support for lifting the moratorium is absolutely the right thing to do. Our technology has advanced to the ppoint that even through Hurricane Katrina, not one drill rig failed with a spill. It is far sighted wisdom such as Jindal has displayed that is needed in this country. Our energy resources will have to be freed up to liberate us from the middle east friends of your leftist candidate.

  65. entopticon

    travelah, Rod Parsley is John McCain’s spiritual advisor by his opwn admission. Why do you constantly just make things up?

    To answer your question, I did not go to seminary school. I apprenticed at a Unitarian Church for college credit, but decided not to go into the ministry after further study.

    Of course, as usual, you misdirect to avoid the fact that you are trivializing Hagee’s claims that Hitler was an agent of god and that god was punishing the Jews for the idolatry of their ancient ancestors.

    If you would vote for a candidate with a 7% lifetime approval rating from the highly respected League of Conservation Voters, I’d say you have some seriously twisted priorities.

  66. travelah

    entop, do you understand that Parsley is not McCain’s pastor? Secondly, I don’t have any problems with Parsley other than I think he is a heretic.

    As for your “studying for the ministry” at a Unitarian church, that would not provide any background regarding orthodox Christian theology, soteriology and general Christian apologetics. The Unitarian-Universalists are considered heretics by nearly all orthodox Christian churches. But enough of that. You are out of your league discussing church doctrine and Christian theology. You need to come to terms with salvation instead.

    With regard to Hagee, I do not agree with the general thrust of his comments. He has applied a somewhat Calvinistic notion to dispensationalist ideas (in other words he is confused). McCain has disagreed with him and refuted him publicly.

    I do not have a lot of respect for the League of Conservation Voters as far as approaching issues in an unbiased manner. They are predominantly a “progressive” organization and I do not agree with their agenda. They are highly respected among those like-minded as yourself. I favor opening up our resources for exploration given the vast majority of these resources have been placed off-limits by short-sighted politicians and the energy picture in this country calls for serious and immediate action. Bobby Jindal is an advocate for sensible energy exploration at a time when our needs are critical. You certainly object but you do so without a sound basis for doing so, rather you appeal to emotionalism and innuendo. The people of this country should expect more of it’s government regarding our energy policies. We can start with opening up reasonable access to our vast energy stores.

  67. entopticon

    travelah, am I seriously expected to think that you know even the slightest thing about Christianity? It is particularly hilarious for you to refer to people as heretics.

    YOU are the heretic travelah. If there was ever a bleeding heart liberal, it was Jesus Christ. If you are seriously going to try to argue against that, you know next to nothing about Christianity.

    You don’t even have to beyond Matthew for irrefutable proof….

    Jesus despised wealth, i.e., the economic policies of Republicans (Matthew 6.24). Jesus was vehemently against public prayer (Matthew 6.5), Jesus was vehemently against the death penalty (Matthew 5.38), Jesus did not believe that the bible was the the literal word of god (also Matthew 5.38), Jesus believed in giving to everyone who begs from you (how EXTREMELY un-Republican, Matthew 5.42, Jesus was a skilled laborer who quit working to bum food from friends and talk philosophy all day, and the list goes on and on.

    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVE! It is a ridiculous contradiction in terms.

    By the way, if you look at that diagram that you cited, Unitarians were around a whole lot longer than your cult.

    We already established, McCain’s pastor is Southern Baptist, the church that was founded as a pro-slavery rebellion against the baptists. Talk about checkered pasts.

    Rod Parsley is McCain’s self proclaimed spiritual advisor. He was actually back in the news today because recordings of some of his ludicrously bigoted rants were discovered. Just more proof that your Wright obsession is bigotry of the worst kind.

    Your profound ignorance of environmental issues is what has put our planet in great peril. Mighty unChristian of you. By the way, I worked and studied at an environmental studies graduate program as well, so don’t act as if I haven’t heard your ridiculously simplistic right-wing nonsense before.

  68. travelah

    entop, if your understanding of these matters were not so pitiful, it would be humorous. I will leave you to your delusions.

  69. entopticon

    So in other words travelah, you have no argument because you know as well as I do that my points were absolutely irrefutable. Like all conservatives, you pretend to be a Christian, but you are the farthest thing from being a Christian because THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CHRISTIAN CONSERVATIVE.

    There is no possible way to vote Republican, lowering taxes for the rich and cutting aid to the poor, and still be a Christian. Twist the truth all you want. deep down you know I’m right.

    This is your chance to break out of your bigoted, anti-Christian ways travelah. I mean it.

    Carlton Pearson used to be a delusional right-wing extremist just like you until he heard god and had an epiphany— The message of right-wing evangelical Churches, that God is wrathful, was completely wrong.

    I really do hope you have the same epiphany as he had. I really do hope that there is something more than a right-wing extremist hatemonger buried deep inside of you.

    If you can, check out this moving documentary on Carlton Pearson’s epiphany:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14337492/

  70. entopticon

    Senator Joe Biden wrote an excellent opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal today, explaining the tragic misguidedness of the Bush/McCain/Lieberman mentality on negotiating with countries such as Iran.

    As Biden cogently argues, their position is extremely dangerous and foolish compared to Obama’s vastly superior approach of engagement.

    He rightly points out that the Bush/McCain/Lieberman approach has already made the world a much more dangerous place by vastly increasing the numbers and resolve of terrorist organizations around the world because of their asinine saber rattling rather than aggressive diplomacy.

    Check out the article, which was a response to Joe Lieberman’s misguided drivel, at:
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121150000249615875.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

  71. travelah

    Joe Biden is a confirmed plagiarist who would not be able to identify the fallacy I just used. He tried to use an example of an ad hoc fallacy in speaking against John McCain’s reply to Barack Hussein Obama’s foolish attack against McCain’s favorable view of our military personnel. He has a long history of looking utterly foolish every time he opens his mouth. Tell me, entop, why is it you did not support Joe Biden for the Presidency? :)

  72. entopticon

    That’s your argument? That old chestnut about how Joe Biden’s speechwriters plagiarized some lines from a British politician in 1988… That’s what you are using to refute his claims. You really do crack me up.

    There you go again with using Obama’s middle name again you despicable bigot.

    I didn’t support Biden because I like Obama better.

    Tell me travelah, why do you keep lying, telling everyone you are a Christian, when you are absolutely not, because Jesus is the quintessential bleeding heart liberal, therefore, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN.

  73. Eli Cohen

    I think he got ya there “T”, in fact I think he had you all along. Entoptican seems to be better educated and more intelligent than you, but, I must say, if we were giving points for smarminess, you would be a clear winner.

  74. travelah

    entop, Joe Biden is responsible for every word out of his mouth just as your candidate, Barack Hussein Obama is and just as Hillary Rodham Clinton is for her comments yesterday. Biden expressed his opinion in reply to Liberman’s opinion. Nothing more. It seems just about everybody likes somebody else in place of Joe Biden. He has been running for President and stating stupid things for 20 years now.
    Face it, entop, the Democrat Party has some serious problems to deal with (just like the Republicans by the way). There are three Democrats left in the race, well, 2 1/2 after yesterday’s comments by Hillary, and I’m supporting the moderate Democrat John McCain, obviously

  75. entopticon

    You are an endless source of entertainment travelah. Instead of addressing the rock solid arguments that Biden made, your only defense is the fact that he was unaware of the fact that 2 of his speech writers plagiarized a few lines 20 years ago. What a joke.

    As you know, John McCain is a Republican, not a Democrat, and as you know Jesus would not be for the pro-war Republican that wants to pay for tax cuts for the richest 2% of our country by cutting social programs for the poor, so as you know, if you vote for John McCain you may be a lot of things, but a Christian is absolutely not one of them.

    Jesus was a pacifist to the extreme that he didn’t even believe in self-defense. Jesus believed you had to give to every last beggar that asked anything of you. Jesus believed in endless forgiveness. Jesus was the complete antithesis of a conservative, i.e., travelah.

  76. travelah

    entop, since John Kerry had asked McCain about being his running mate, that should suffice for McCain’s credentials as a moderate Democrat. I am sure you would have considered Lieberman to have been a Republican in politic while still an elected Democrat.
    If a man is going to speak words in public as Biden, he has no excuse for the plagiarism of his content, period. As for tax cuts, I am middle class and our tax burden was lessened by nearly $3K. That is very significant.Everybody benefited from that well advised reduction in income tax rates.
    With regard to Christ, you do not know Him or who He is. The LORD may change that but until then, your view has no relevance.

  77. entopticon

    So in your mind Jesus was a pro-war, pro-assault weapon, non pacifist who would have supported making tax cuts for the richest 2% permanent while cutting aid to the poor…. And you think I am the one who doesn’t know Christ.

    You really do crack me up.

  78. travelah

    entop, you keep repeating this nonsense. Do you not realize at all tax payers received reductions in their rates? Somebody who paid in much more than I should get back more absolute dollars. If I get a 5% rate reduction and my neighbor gets a 5% reduction, why should I complain about his reduction?? I am thankfull for being treated equitably which is a far shot from how your lefist candidate, Barack Hussein Obama or Hillary Rodham Clinton would treat the middle class.

  79. entopticon

    travelah, you are the one repeating nonsense and you know it. Jesus was against wealth. To argue that Jesus would have been for tax cuts for the rich, from the same man who turned over the tables of the money changers, who were certainly nowhere near rich by today’s standards, is either astonishingly disingenuous or outlandishly ignorant.

    If you are seriously trying to argue that Jesus was not the quintessential bleeding heart liberal, you are pretty darned foolish.

  80. travelah

    entop, you are stating opinions about things you have no inkling of. A discussion of why Jesus expressed His anger at what was occurring in the Court of the Gentiles at Herod’s invitation (the outer court of the Temple at Jerusalem) is not the topic of this thread or related to anything I have mentioned.
    Perhaps you could address the issue itself in my last post. Here it is again.
    Do you not realize at all tax payers received reductions in their rates? Somebody who paid in much more than I should get back more absolute dollars. If I get a 5% rate reduction and my neighbor gets a 5% reduction, why should I complain about his reduction?? I am thankfull for being treated equitably which is a far shot from how your lefist candidate, Barack Hussein Obama or Hillary Rodham Clinton would treat the middle class.

  81. entopticon

    You seriously still don’t get it? You really need to take your blinders off because this is getting a little ridiculous.

    I did address your point. You are making a right-wing argument that is as anti-Christian as humanly possible. Jesus was against extreme wealth. You can’t serve two masters travelah.

    There is nothing fare about a CEO that makes as much money in 5 minutes than the people slaving away for the same company make in an entire year. You can bet your sweet ass that Jesus would not be arguing that the fair thing to do is to tax both of them at the same percentage rate.

    It is certainly NOT a Christian thing to cut social programs in order to slash tax rates for the insanely rich. Jesus didn’t even believe in ownership for Christ’s sake. And for everyone else’s as well.

    Obama and Hillary both want to lower the tax burden for of the middle class. Are you just a pathological liar or do you just get all your information from them?

    The poor and the middle class need more money. The rich have more money than any human needs or deserves because of the shameful economic policies that McCain wants to continue. The bible says if the poor want some of that money, it is our responsibility to give it to them.

    Matthew 5.42: Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.

    That means that Jesus absolutely, positively would not be for tax cuts for the filthy rich at the expense of the poor and middle class. Again, if you are a Christian, you can not vote for a Republican. That is an incontrovertible truism.

    Your world view is astonishingly twisted. As I said, study Carlton Pearson. Somewhere deep inside your twisted soul, there is a decent human being just dying to get out.

  82. travelah

    entop, both Barack Hussein Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton have advocated and indicated they are opposed to the 2001 tax cuts continuing. That means the average middle class family will see their taxes go up by $2-3K. Obama has indicated he would favor providing a $1K tax cut AFTER the earlier tax cuts are rescinded. Now I do not know about you but mathematically that is a tax increase for the middle class.

  83. travelah

    “We spend between the two kids, on extracurriculars outside the classroom, we’re spending about $10,000 a year on piano and dance and sports supplements. And summer programs…Do you know what summer camp costs?”

    –remarks by Michelle Obama to a group of women in Zanesville, Ohio, where median annual household income is $37,000.

  84. entopticon

    Oh my god travelah, where do you come up with your ridiculous bs?!

    Unless you make over $200k a year, your taxes will not be raised when Obama is President.

    Oh my god travelah, Michelle Obama cares about her children. What a freakin’ monster!

    Michelle Obama just finished paying off her student loans a couple of years ago.

    John McCain gets flown around the country in his wife’s private jet! Do you have any idea how much a single trip in a private jet costs? Let’s just say it’s a whole hell of a lot more than the Obama’s annual expenditures on their children.

    As opposed to John McCain, Barack Obama wants to raise taxes on the richest 2%. This is an argument you can’t possibly win.

    Actually, that seems to pretty much apply to every argument that you make. I am glad to say that I have been getting wonderful letters of support sent to my email account saying just that.

    If you ever want to have a “who is the most afraid that Leftists are hiding in their closet contest,” I will concede to whatever inane argument you make. Otherwise, I will just continue to make mincemeat of your drivel.

  85. travelah

    It seems Iranian exiles (you know, those inconvenient people who are here because Barack Hussein Obama’s friends in Iran don’t like them?)are not too happy with Obama’s plans to engage in unconditional dialogue with their persecutors. Here is an interesting letter they have presented expressing their concerns with the leftist appeasement candidate.

    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/an-open-letter-to-senator-obama-on-iran/

  86. travelah

    entop, if the tax cuts are repealed, everybody’s taxes go up. Obama is raising taxes on everybody but those who do not pay taxes to begin with. Not to worry though, I think that middle class out there in the “middle states” will figure it out soon enough, hopefully before your leftist candidate by chance gets elected.

  87. travelah

    I think Al Gore could address the issue of flying around in private jets and spewing all that “carbon” into the air better than I.

  88. entopticon

    That letter, on the right-wing extremist website Pajamas Media, which is run by ultra right-wing extremists Roger L. Simon, Charles Johnson, and Glenn Reynolds was written by two people and they quickly betrayed their right-wing slant when they cited uber lunatic John Bolton.

    That said, I do think that it is worth considering labeling Iran a gender apartheid nation.

    I terribly disagree that talking is such a bad thing. Anyone who would not consider talks with Iran about discontinuing their nuclear program is a lunatic.

    Your ludicrous assertion that if we punish them with silence they will cave into our demands is beyond idiotic. What are you so afraid of?

    This whole notion that they will be emboldened by talks is such an asinine smokescreen.

    It is good to see that you are hanging out at a website for right-wing wackos such as Pajamas Media. I’m sure you feel right at home there because there aren’t any pesky people like me around to call you out on the facts.

  89. entopticon

    Seriously travelah, this is getting a little disturbing. YOU HAVE TO STOP LYING!!

    Have you even looked at their plans? Did you even watch the Democratic debates? Both Hillary and Obama have made it clear in no uncertain terms that the rollbacks of the tax cuts only apply to people making over $200k a year.

    As far as Al Gore goes, I have never been a fan. I agree, on many levels he is a huge hypocrite. He is the one who pushed NAFTA through without proper environmental stipulations.

    He is even the person who originally made an issue of Willie Horton against Dukakis, feeding the right-wing smear machine with their garbage and costing us 4 years of economic turmoil under Republican rule.

    Sorry travelah, but the Republicans have completely TRASHED our economy, so you don’t get to have a credible opinion if you vote Republican.

    We went from paying down the national debt and being the biggest creditor nation on the planet under Clinton, to increasing the national debt more than every other President in history…. COMBINED… and becoming the largest debtor nation on the planet under Bush.

    Therefore, no matter what you say, you have ABSOLUTELY no credibility WHATSOEVER. You used up your credibility. Your opinions can’t be taken seriously.

  90. Eli Cohen

    “T”, you’ve become an embarrassment to yourself, you sound like a lunatic…please stop.

  91. travelah

    entop, everybody who does not support your candidate is either a right wing lunatic or a stooge of the neocons, right? You trashed the folks at Pajamas Media yet fail to address the issues raised in the letter presented by the site. There is a good reason. They are on solid ground.
    Both Obama and Clinton favor the expiration of Bush’s tax cuts. That means a tax increase for everybody. There is no way around that fact regardless of the campaign pandering. Neither of the two candidates is going to buck the direction on this matter of both Pelosi or Reid. Why would they? They are all in agreement.

  92. entopticon

    travelah, the rhetoric is getting nonsensical. The expiration of the tax cuts will start at people making more than $200k a year. For the lower middle class tax burdens are actually expected to DECREASE, so you are either seriously misinformed, or seriously disingenuous.

    Of course, if you weren’t, you would never be ridiculous enoug to consider voting for the Republican regime that in the course of one single Presidency increased the national debt more than every other President in history combined and took us from being the largest creditor on the planet to the largest debtor on the planet.

    George Bush has completely trashed what had been the strongest economy in history. Even with all of his administration’s outlandish contortions of the numbers to try to hide the facts, like completely changing the normal criteria for measuring such things in order to give false assurances, he still can’t hide the fact that he has pushed us to the brink of a cataclysmic depression with his failed policies.

    It is not a coincidence that already, four former Securities and Exchange Comission Chairmen have come out in support of Obama. Bush’s policies, the ones that you are ludicrously defending here, have been an absolute disaster.

  93. travelah

    entop, when legislation expires, there is no picking and choosing what part of the legislation expires.

  94. entopticon

    travelah, you are just too funny. With solid control of the house and senate, Obama is going to have no trouble passing his tax plan.

    Just moments ago, Robert Reich, Clinton’s former Secretary of Labor, laid out Obama’s plan, which completely goes against your despicably SHAMEFUL lies.

    Reich laid out in no uncertain terms, that under Obama’s plan, the bottom 95% of the country is going to have a significant TAX DECREASE, so stop your deplorable lying already.

    McCain’s top economic advisor, Douglas Holtz-Eakin was sitting right there, and did not disagree with that indisputable FACT.

    Under McCain’s plan, the entirety of the middle class would pay significantly MORE taxes, and that is an indisputable FACT.

    Under McCain’s plan, the richest two percent would get over $150 billion dollars in tax cuts, and that is an indisputable FACT.

    Under McCain’s plan, giant multinational corporations who ship jobs overseas would get hundreds of billions of dollars in tax cuts and that is an indisputable FACT.

    Under McCain, continuing costs for the Iraq war are likely to be at very least $150 billion dollars a year, driving us deep, deep, deep into China’s debt.

    You need to stop your lies travelah. It’s absolutely shameful.

  95. travelah

    Reich laid out in no uncertain terms, that under Obama’s plan, the bottom 95% of the country is going to have a significant TAX DECREASE, so stop your deplorable lying already.

    That is such a ridiculous claim it borders on cartoonish. Can you identify any time since JFK that any Democrat has granted tax decreases to 95% of the American public?? How does anybody decrease taxes to 95% of the American public while eliminating their previous tax decreases and shifting that burden onto the shoulders of 5% of the country all the while massively boosting domestic spending with a boondoggle of social program expansions including subsidized national healthcare?
    Reich is a blooming idiot. He was a horrible head of Labor and his grasp of economic theory is incredibly moronic.
    Face it entop, your leftist candidate has no intention of reducing the tax burden of the middle class in this country especially after he has already favored eliminating the tax cuts we already received. In a nutshell, Obama is a just another political hack speaking lies out both sides of his mouth. Have the last word (a vitriolic one I am sure) on this well expended thread.

  96. entopticon

    OK travelah, enough is enough. Exactly what part of thou shalt not lie don’t you understand? Do you make it some kind of point to break one of the ten commandments as many times as possible during the course of each day?

    That claim is not debatable. IT IS A FACT. Obama’s plan will significantly LOWER the tax burden on the bottom 95% of America. There are no ifs, ands, or buts.

    As I said, even McCain’s top economic advisor was not willing to dispute that fact when given the opportunity, so it is RIDICULOUSLY asinine that you, who has the economic understanding of a junior high-schooler, are trying to dispute this incontrovertible FACT.

    The plan you advocate drove us from being the largest creditor nation on the planet to being the largest debtor nation on the planet in one single Presidency!

    The plan you advocate increased the national debt more than than every other President in history combined. So you have ABSOLUTELY no credibility on this issue whatsoever.

    Reich is most certainly NOT the moron on economic issues. If you want to see such a person, take a long hard look at yourself.

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