The letter writer highlighting “Mumpower’s Discrimination is Showing” [Jan. 30] was correct. I have this nagging inner voice that tells me to discriminate against political correctness, bullying by special interests, and those who confuse freedom of religion with freedom from religion.
As regards retaining the name “Christmas Parade,” the facts tell us that most folks living in Western North Carolina are Christians, and for those folks, Christmas is first and foremost a celebration of the birth of Christ. Others are free to celebrate the holiday (which incidentally means “Holy Day”) as they wish. Redefining Christmas into an opportunity to worship Santa, shop till you drop, or [other] secular “feel good” exercises seems to be about everything but love.
References to “goose-stepping and jackboots” by people running for Congress evidently provided comfort to the writer. She seems to have a need to vilify those who dare to suggest that being a loving Christian does not mean you also have to be a spiritual coward.
I take great personal delight in living in a country where we are all free to worship as we wish. That freedom includes the opportunity for the Christian majority to have a Christmas parade that upholds Christian values and yet remains open to all. That is about love.
— Carl Mumpower
Asheville City Council
Yes, at last a sane comment about religion in America. Christmas is all we have left, please leave us to enjoy our merchants holiday. We need some excuse to be nice and give gifts if only for a few days a year.
Please! Donate to Dr Carl’s campaign and lets send his ass to Washington … at least he’ll be out of Asheville (albeit temporarily).
The issue at hand is using public funds to endorse a specific religion. Blocking public roads, private businesses, and public servants (firemen and police) in a specifically “Christian” celbration is un-constitutional. Regardless of what the majority is, this is government endorsing a specific religion. Also, if it’s all about love and Christian values, I question Mumpower’s attack on poverty stricken illegal immigrants trying to feed their families. Nothin’ but love? WWJD?
Travelah: Christmas is all you have left? Easter, Ash Wednesday (today)? Christians are not lacking in holidays, they are the majority, and not nearly as persecuted and under represented politically as they feel they are.
Ashevegas, I do not remember making this post especially at 4:06 AM.In fact, I know for certain I was snoozing soundly. … check out the capital T vs. my small “t”. Somebody was bored and lonely.
For those interested, you can use a capital I with this font and wish you were me too :)
nothing wrong with a christmas parade, mummy.
using public funds to support it – well, it doesn’t matter if you’re a majority. that goes against separation of church & state.
have your parade; but if you’re using my money, it can’t be to promote your religion. whatever it may be. if you make it a non-religious event, that’s fine. case closed.
Thanks for a well-written response Dr Mumpower. Love says it all. And I do still celebrate Christmas!
Excellent letter Dr M.
Wasn’t the “Christmas Parade” as it used to be named sponsored by the merchants association not ever publically funded? It included both secular and religious themed floats with tons of local schools, bands, dancers, elves, santas, clowns, non-profitt’s who help the community, police, sheriffs, fire dept, mayor, gov officials, beauty queens, horses, animal shelters with animals to adopt etc… all decked out in Christmas themed costumes, colors and skits with a community based theme for each new year. It was a joy and brought folks downtown- all types of folks. It is a shame it has turned into such a non joyous event.
Heaven forbid anyone sponsors any joy in this town.
PS: I wonder who sponsor’s the St Paddy’s day parade?
Irish isn’t a religion, and the parade uses public streets, and public servants even if it doesn’t use public funds (which I believe it does). Call it a holiday parade and have multiple religions and businesses involved and there’s no qualms. Why do you insist on government endorsed religion?
Irish isn’t a religion, but what about all the non-Irish people whose tax money pay for St Patrick’s Day Parade in NYC? What about all of my tax money that pays the salaries of teachers who preach their form of religion to a captive audience, the students? I’m talking about leftwing dogma, socialism and political correctness. The far left dogma is just like a religion to those who fellow travel this road.
“In God We Trust”.
“One Nation Under God.”
“We still celebrate Christmas.”
“We still pray.”
Hum,sounds kind of American to me to have a Christmas Parade. I’m all for it!
liberalism isn’t a religion even if you think it is. It’s a political ideology, and as a person who went to A.C. Reynolds, I can tell you there is just as much conservatism being taught. The tax payers choose to, and love the St. Patty’s parade. It is a boon for the local economy. I’m not telling you not to pray, but this country is not a theocracy. The founding fathers were men of faith, but they were careful to not mix it with government, as they had seen the results in the U.K. You can have a Christmas Parade but don’t use governmental agencies and resources, that is blatantly un-constitutional. Happy Holidays!
Also, political correctness isn’t as bad as you righties make it out to be. It’s called not being offensive to other cultures and beliefs. If you want to be an ignorant, hateful person go ahead. But maybe you could consider other people, if only when you come out of your cave.
Well put, Joe.
AsheJoe, most people are in favor of being nice to one another. If you think political correctness is the best way of doing it, I’d say you don’t get out much. PC is not about not offending (except for conservatives), but about thought-opinion control. It’s alive and well in most of our universities and high schools. And it is often taken way too far. But it is understandable I guess that most leftwingnuts don’t like Christianity, so they’ve made their religion out of political dogma replete with the code of conduct. PC is oppressive. If everyone would just practice kindness and Christian love towards one another, we wouldn’t need the likes of Hillary Clinton telling us how to act.
We still celebrate Christmas at my house. And we have no trouble with the New Agers and witches celebrating the Winter Solstice. Or the Jews celebrating Honnaka. Every keep their celebrations the way they want them without some PC butinsky wanting to fix things to look the way they envision correctness to be. Traditions have been around for a long time, for a reason. We don’t need a bunch of neo-socialists changing the mix after all this time. :)
AsheJoe, liberalism IS A RELIGION to many. These liberals get emotional very quickly when opposing ideas are discussed. They think people with opposing points of view are “not nice people” (or fill in with nazi, rightwinger, anti-choice bigot, etc). These neo-socialist liberals cling to their political ideaology as if it is a set-in-stone dogma. So it all depends on whether you are talking about some of the mainstream-middle-of-the-road liberals, or the MoveOn.Org/Howard Dean screech fringe of the democrat party. To the later group, liberalism is indeed a religion. See the parallels with the most fundamentalist in religion like the Bin Laden Muslims?
why don’t people understand that Jesus himself would not approve of a ‘Christmas’ parade. why? because Jesus was trying to include all in the idea of leading a good life in order to find their way to heaven. Remember, he was a radical, liberal Jew who challenged the old orthodox teachings. He never said ‘worship me’, he taught by example. If anyone really thinks that all it takes to get to heaven is declaring Jesus Christ as your personal savior, rather than actually living the life that Jesus asked us to, I suggest you turn your Bible right side up !
I know few Christians that even deserve that title. To be a true Christian, you would give money to the poor, you would believe in true equality for all (that includes blacks, mexicans, Iraqis–and no Jesus was not Blond haired & blue eyed, nowadays, he would most likely be profiled as a terrorist-he is from the middle east afterall!), you would truly treat all others the way you want to be treated…this is your ticket to heaven.
Also, if you think for one second that ‘for most folks Christmas is foremost about the birth of Jesus’ I beg to differ. American christmas is about consumerism, greed, guilt & debt; Toys, clothes, plastic made in china crap…How many ‘christians’ gave to the poor? volunteered at a soup kitchen? taught your children the value of unity and peace and love and understanding and acceptance?
Also, by the way, St. Patty’s Day is also a christian holiday. St. Patrick was the Hitler to the Pagans. St. Patty’s Day is equal to celebrating the holocaust.
I am so tired of this we vs. them attitude. Jesus would want us uniting not dividing.
A true ‘Christ’mas parade wouldn’t get caught up in the word ‘Christmas’, but would be honored to be including all walks of faith and interest in a Holiday parade that brings all of Asheville together in the name of peace, love and unity!
Let’s get down to the true issues here. True christians shouldn’t feel so threatened if they feel as though they are living a good, moral, christian life.
Still all about that love, Nam Vet, yet calling anyone who disagrees with you a “butinsky”? Having actual dialog with you is near impossible.
Personally, I don’t believe in the supernatural, so I don’t believe in any god — Christian or otherwise — and I don’t find many Christians who act in some of the mannerisms that Candler Gal described. I think the whole thing is an amusing sham, to be honest, but I’d fight for your right to believe whatever the hell you want.
So, in short, I not entirely comfortable with my government spending time and energy sponsoring a parade centered around one denomination, and I’m not silly enough to want them to pay for (in any major way) the parades of any other religion. When would it stop?
I suspect Nam Vet doesn’t want the government paying for Muslim or Jewish parades.
Christmas is fine. Christians are fine. Parades are fine. Just don’t lord it over those who don’t buy into that program. If you are secure in your beliefs and respectful of others then my guess is you wouldn’t.
Liberalism is not a religion, there is no dogma, no deity, no rituals, blah blah blah. Conservatives like to call it that because they are incapable of rational thought and debate, so they make ridiculous assertions to feel like they made a point. When clearly, like Nam Vet, they can only call people names (i.e. wingnut) to boost their ego. I don’t care if you call it PC or whatever, it’s respect. Something sadly lacking on the right. It doesn’t come from Hillary or Howard Dean, it comes from the respect that we should all have for eachother, and eachother’s beliefs. Also, if the only criticism that can be made about Dean is his scream of four years ago, that belies what a great job he has done as chairman of the DNC. As opposed to the chairman of the RNC, who Rush himself couldn’t name yesterday ( and I have no idea who he is). Dean would have been way better than G.W., and if you listen to his rhetoric and not his scream you would realize that. Heaven forbid somebody show emotion when running for president (Hillary).
Of course liberalism is a religion in the sense that it is faith based. Liberals have faith in their ideals even though they lack evidence in the natural realm. For example, garnishing the wages of low income people who cannot afford Hillary’s mandatory health insurance is trusted by her and her followers as the answer to the problem of mankind (well, at least the problem of one small segment of mankind). Such are the ways of the god of liberalism whose reach always extends deep into somebody elses pockets. Liberalism as it’s own mantras, it’s own devoted followers and it’s own supernatural expectations. That sounds like a religion to me.
Oh, for Christ’s sake, conservatives have faith in their ideas too, devoted followers, mantras, etc., but that doesn’t make it — or liberalism — a religion.
For some conservatives, it is a religion.
“why don’t people understand that Jesus himself would not approve of a ‘Christmas’ parade”
Why wouldn’t He? He went to the Passover festivals and he attended at least one wedding party that we know about. I think Jesus would have used the opportunity to shed His light of love and forgiveness, but that is strictly my very own opinion.
“idea of leading a good life in order to find their way to heaven.”
What about the thief on the cross who had no chance to live this good and moral life to get into heaven?
Jesus told him after he repented of his sin while hanging on the cross; “Today you will be with me in paradise”
It depends on what side of the coin you think good is I suppose. Muslims think good and moral lives that will get you to heaven with the most honor would consist of killing the most infidels. I disagree.
“Remember, he was a radical, liberal Jew who challenged the old orthodox teachings”
He actually told them I am come to Fulfill the law because we can not be perfect, he took our place and died for our sin. We can reject this gift but it is OUR very own choice and no one can force anyone to be a Christian. It’s just not how it works.
…and Comparing St Patrick to the Holocaust???
St Patrick was admittedly, in his two known letters, a pagan himself before converting to Christianity after being enslaved by pagans at for years until he escaped, he still loved them and went back to teach them about Christ.
AsheJoe,
Irish isn’t a religion? You must not be Irish! :-D
One does not have to be a Christian to celebrate a joyous Christian holiday or a holiday inspired by Christianity. I just think we are getting to a place where it will be gloomy and dark if we cut out all things associated with anything remotely Christian.
St Valentine’s day-Celebration of Love
St Patrick’s Day-Celebration of all things IRISH!
Mardi Gras (Begins on Epiphany and ends on Shrove or Fat Tuesday -Start of Lent)
Easter -Celebration of Christ’s resurrection
Thanksgiving- a distinctly American Holiday created to give Thanks to our Creator
Christmas -Celebration of Christ’s birth.
At the end of the day when the parade was sponsored by the Merchants association and was named the “Christmas” Parade, it encompassed both secular and religious and was NOT tax payer funded and was a joy to go see by the entire community of Jews, Christians and Non Christians alike! One of the sponsors was a well beloved Jewish storeowner! And no I will not tell you who, look it up at the UNCA Library and or Pack Library and you can even see some of the old floats!
Nancy, you wrote:
“Muslims think good and moral lives that will get you to heaven with the most honor would consist of killing the most infidels.”
You sure about this, as in ALL Muslims?
Would you care to have the beliefs of a small minority of Christians be cast as the beliefs of all Christians? It would not take long to find some exceptionally abhorrent ideas held by some Christians.
how many acts of terrorism have been committed on american soil by christian anti-abortion activists? should i talk as though all christians are doctor-killers?
Johnny,
No I am not sure, since, I can only go by what I’ve seen, read and what other ex-muslims have spoken about their own upbringing, traditions, culture and religion. Just google Ex Muslims or Apostates of Islam, you can see their accounts here:
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.asp
I know there are many who sit on a pew and say they are christian, but like my mother says, just because you sit in a garage it doesn’t make you a car.
There is not a soul that has been saved by God grace out here who would not agree with you about abhorrent evil men and women who use religion in evil ways.
Rob,
I wouldn’t begin to know, but nevertheless all acts of terrorism are wrong no matter who commits them.
About abortion, again I take it from folks who have been there and done that:
http://www.feministsforlife.org/history/foremoth.htm#sbanthony
http://standupgirl.com/web/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=77
Candler Gal: hum, I’m glad you know WWJD in the case of parades.:)
Johnny: I’m for keeping a lot of our traditional American customs, including Christmas Parades, and Thanksgiving, and Easter, 4th of July. The cost of a Christmas Parade to the tax payer is negligible, primarily for police and cleanup. And it figures you are an athiest. But, if you search yourself, you may find you do believe in a religion, neo-socialist liberalism. :)
AsheJoe: Calm yourself amigo. “Leftwingnut” is an affectionate term of endearment. :) He who is without name calling, let him cast the first name call! Leftwingnut is a fitting descriptor for the more extreme neo-socialists, like Howard Dean. Remember the screech? And it certainly doesn’t approach the level of neo-socialist liberal name calling aimed at conservatives,,,with terms like “Nazi” and “capitalist pig” commonly thrown around. :)
Nancy: Some good points…you don’t have to be Christian to enjoy Christmas parades, nor be Irish to still enjoy St Patrick’s Day. Heck I’d even turn out for May Day if Johnny would invite me! :)
And Rob: When I mentioned a fundamentalist religion, I said the BIN LADEN branch of Islam. I did not mean every Muslim is a fundamentalist Jihad supporting terrorist…any more than some of the old line anarchist-socialist bomb throwers from New York in the 1930s represent todays liberal socialists.
Bottom line, we do not need a secular religion setting mind-controlling politically correct tenets to govern our behaviour. Christianity will do just fine, thank you. God blessyou all!
travelah said: “Of course liberalism is a religion in the sense that it is faith based. Liberals have faith in their ideals even though they lack evidence in the natural realm. For example, garnishing the wages of low income people who cannot afford Hillary’s mandatory health insurance is trusted by her and her followers as the answer to the problem of mankind (well, at least the problem of one small segment of mankind). Such are the ways of the god of liberalism whose reach always extends deep into somebody elses pockets. Liberalism as it’s own mantras, it’s own devoted followers and it’s own supernatural expectations. That sounds like a religion to me.”
Wow,well said travelah!
Travelah, the people who cannot afford to have Hillary garnish their wages, also cannot afford to be uninsured. When a catastrophic illness occurs they go to the E.R. and drive up health cost for everyone. Also, some illnesses could be prevented with preventative care. I’m sure Jesus would want us to take care of the poor and the sick.
Nancy, I don’t wish to cut out all things Christian. I don’t want state sponsored religion. I believe some of the greatest thinkers of our time were and are Christian. I just don’t think that schools, civil servants, or government buildings should be used to endorse any specific religion, it is clearly un-constitutional. Also, St.Patrick’s day may have a Christian origin, but if you have ever been to any metropolis celebrating it, it is clearly not now. I am not against Christian themed celebrations, as long as it is not using everyone’s tax money (firefighters, police, security). If we all pay for it, it should be non-denominational. Religious extremists, Christian and Muslim, are psychotic and dangerous. Pious people of both faiths are kind and noble.
Nancy, you’ve sent me to an anti-Muslim website, with testimonials by those who’ve left Islam and are critical of it. There is I’m sure a similar site of testimonials about the wrongs within the Christian faith, and I suspect you would chafe under the collar if someone suggested that it delivered a full picture of Christianity.
also, travelah, if the criterion for religion is being “faith based”, then I guess gravity is a religion, as well as dinner and lunch. Liberalism, conservatism, marxism, socialism,democracy… are all political and economic ideologies not religions. There is a VERY big difference. Read a book
criteria
Don’t forget the fan club for Tim McGraw’s wife.
They are also “Faith-based” and therefore a religion (?).
what’s up with the multiple “travelahs”, one seems like they just want to say ridiculous things to incite, and the other seems normal. If you want to say ridiculous incendiary things it’s cool, just make up your own name. May I suggest Chad or Don?
The modern conservative is engaged in one man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
~ John K. Galbraith
“The modern liberal democrat is engaged in one of socialism’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is the search for the best way to fool the people into paying more taxes as justification to further their big government oppression.”
~NM
AsheJoe said: “travelah, the people who cannot afford to have Hillary garnish their wages, also cannot afford to be uninsured. When a catastrophic illness occurs they go to the E.R. and drive up health cost for everyone. Also, some illnesses
could be prevented with preventative care. I’m sure Jesus would want us to take care of the poor and the sick.”
AsheJoe, Jesus is very much in favor of helping the sick and anyone else who is suffering. BUT Jesus also REFUSED to become involved in any political movements of his time, by saying “my Kingdom is not of this world.” Helping others should be voluntary and not government mandated.
Hillary’s promise to “garnish wages” is a forced political “solution”. It is SOCIALISM. Take from one person and give to another. The mythical “rich” person is supposed to be the one she will take from. BUT, the fact of the matter is that the middle class is where most of the money is, so the middleclass will be taxed. YOU TOO.
Hillary is a dangerous person because she thinks she knows what is best for other people. But she is a tremendous hypocrite on a power trip, not someone who just wants to “help”. Hillary lives in a mansion and has millions of dollars in the bank. She just “loaned” her campaign $5 million dollars OF HER OWN MONEY. The Obama campaign has asked her to make public her tax returns so we can see where this money is coming from.
Hillary said not long ago that we should “share”. I say this to her: HILLARY IF YOU WANT US TO *SHARE* THEN LET IT BEGIN WITH YOU. *YOU* START BY GIVING YOUR FORTUNE TO THE POOR WHO ARE ‘UNINSURED’!. That way, the poor won’t have to stand in line at their local emergency room for the mandated FREE medical care everyone can get, including illegal aliens. :)
AsheJoe, the elephant in the living room here? NO ONE goes without medical care in this country whether they are insured or not.
This is wrong on many levels. First off WE the people was established as a republic. Second WE the people established common law & rejected religious law. Third, the principle of “No taxation without representation” still holds true.
This was established by the passage of Jefferson’s Act For Establishing Religious Freedom:
Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities. And though we well know that this Assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of Legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding Assemblies constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare that the rights hereby asserted, are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right.
A true conservative would be appalled at the increases both in government size and intervention into people’s personal lives during recent Republican regimes. Talk about being fooled!
Namvet, please wipe the froth off your mouth! Your ad-homniminid laden diatribe makes you look shrill and foolish. She is going to be your next president; learn to like it.
Ashevagasjoe, Jesus also said “let the dead bury the dead”. The question is not over whether the poor and sick should be charitably looked after. It is instead how is this best done. Garnishing the wages of those who cannot afford health care insurance is Hillary Clinton’s solution.
Personally I think this is a fraudulent issue. If the matter were focused on “catastrophic health care coverage” (CHC), the solution is easily found by recognizing that such coverage can be found at a cost of about $500/month. That is a lot of money for some people and those people are generally those who qualify for medicaid coverage if they have children. The reason I focus on CHC is because this is the lack of coverage that destroys family finances and represents the highest medical cost category. Addres this issue first and attention can be focused on the other big problem, what I refer to as “sniffle insurance”.
Sniffle insurance is that entitlement mentality that has people believing that they are entitled to run to the doctor or clinic every time they get a cold or the flu AND have somebody else pay for it. This is what we are doing with $20-25 co-pays. The insurance company (ultimately your employer) ends up paying $100-150 for each visit. The clinic has no incentive to keep it’s costs in line. The patient has no incentive because somebody else is paying for it. The end result is skyrocketing health care costs and employers who can no longer carry the burden.
The liberal mindset does not seem to understand that medical benefit costs of 50% of wages (not to mention all other fringe benefit costs)is a cost that cannot be sustained long term. So, their solution is to take out of one pocket to put in another all the while ignoring the systemic issues involved. … hence Hillary’s desire to garnish poor people for health insurance. Has she not learned that you cannot squeeze blood out of a turnip?
Methinks it is the squeezing blood out of you that you’re worried about. Once again you make your attack with misinformation and hate filled ad-hominem conservative greedster mentality. Your misstatement of the facts is breathtaking. Sir, have you no shame?
Nam Vet: when these people who are uninsured go to the E.R. and don’t pay it drives up health care cost for everyone. Also, it is not due to “sniffles” but rather medical conditions that are emergencies, and in some cases could have been prevented with simple health maintenance (i.e. bloodwork and antibiotics). When someone comes in with advanced disease the cost is much higher and the outcome less likely to be succesful. So yes everyone gets health care, but not when they should have, and at a much higher cost for all of us.
For examples of universal health care, you need only look at Canada, France, and the U.K. Hardly socialist nations. And I might add, ones with a shorter wait for health care in E.R.’s, equal pay for physicians, and a higher life expectancy than the good ole U.S.A. We should be a leader in healthcare, not ranking in the twenties and thirties world wide. I know, my father is director of neuro-trauma i.c.u. and cardiovascular i.c.u. for the last fifteen years. We can provide health care at a lower cost for everyone when we get H.M.O.’s and drug companies in check. We are all being taken hostage by the currrent system that is in need of a total overhaul. Also, we lead the world in people in debt due to catastrophic illness. It’s time for the U.S. to assume its role as a leader in science, health care, and environmental studies, instead of allowing corporations and conservatives to hold us captive with thinking that is from the 1980’s. I don’t wish to destroy business, but I would also like to make the human experience as healthful as possible. I know that’s a pinko wing-nut socialist eco-terrorist way of thinking, but I think children are cool and deserve better.
For example, I recently had a friend who was hiking in Canada. She, a U.S. citizen, broke her leg. She was immediately treated at no cost. Then she bought her prescribed pain killers for less than ten dollars. In contrast, I broke my leg about ten years ago, and eventhough insured, it still cost thousands of dollars. I know the universal health care system seems like a fairy tale, but it works, and is going on quite succesfully right next door. Maybe the Canadians should build a fence to keep illegals from abusing their health system!
AsheJoe, Canada, UK, and France ARE socialist countries. The taxes in these countries are very high. High taxes paid by working people for mediocre (at best) health “care”. Another point. These countries that have socialized medicine rarely invent new drugs and medical procedures. WE DO HERE. The profit motive makes it happen. If we went socialized medicine, the discovery of new procedures and drugs would fall off considerably, for everyone in the world. Where do you think Europe & Canada get their drugs? From us..
My brother has lived in Minnesota for many years. He said there is a steady stream of Canadians who come down to get GOOD health care. The Mayo Clinic being the choice destination. If Canada was the utopian healthcare place you dream it is, this steady stream of medical care searchers would not be present.
No one goes without health care here. The system we have is not perfect, but is better than the slipshod, socialist government-run program comradette Hillary wants to ram down our throats.
Johnny, You stated:
“Nancy, you’ve sent me to an anti-Muslim website, with testimonials by those who’ve left Islam and are critical of it. There is I’m sure a similar site of testimonials about the wrongs within the Christian faith, and I suspect you would chafe under the collar if someone suggested that it delivered a full picture of Christianity.”
If they are still muslims and they were critical of their relgion they would be beheaded, run through, put to death etc.. and I really don’t think you would believe me or any source I gave you so with that I will not try to persuade you otherwise.
Thank you for the conversation though.
Nancy
Nam vet, you truly over and misuse the term socialist if you think Canada, the U.K., of France is. The U.K., Canada, and France are in fact capitalist nations. It is an economic ideology, not a political one. You may have meant communist, but they are not (constitutional monarchy and democratic respectively). For communist nation see China, Cuba, Venezuela. If our health care system is so great, why are there thirty other countries that have higher average life expectancy ( a leading health indicator). I’m sure it’s a sign of the prosperity we enjoy, and just over indulge. Unlike the Britttish, who eat and drink alcohol on par, if not in excess of us. Maybe it’s the fast food, because we’re the only country that eats McDonald’s? The fact remains, our health care system is not the best, it’s not in the top ten, and we need to overhaul it. Quit draggin’ your feet and help to make the country the best it can be, if you are in fact a patriot!
Also, you say no one goes without healthcare, but fail to address the points I made about it driving up health cost for everyone, and waiting to get health care until it is to late. I also don’t see what the heck this has to do with Mumpower, but since we went there, here you go.
Also, if higher taxes meant free health care, I’m all for it. Catastrophic illness will cost you way more than a lifetime of taxes.
Well, Nancy, I for one am not forming all my opinions about Christianity based on one negative interaction with a Christian (that interaction being this one right here, where you have made blanket derogatory statements about Islam).
I have formed some opinions, though, about your level of bigotry towards those who don’t profess the same faith as you do.
Cheers. Have a great day!
Ashevegasjoe, if you wish to use Canada as an example of the benefits of socialized medicine, there are two things to consider right off the bat. First, consider how many Canadians come to the US for quality and advanced medical care. Secondly, compare the number of new drug and application patents and registrations here in the US with Canada or any of the other Western socialized countries. There is a dismal record of new development outside the US and it is due almost entirely to the socialization of medicine.
As I mentioned in my previous post, there are problems to address but they need to be done so in a rational manner dealing with the bigger problems first. Socializing our medical infrastructure is not a sound solution if you want innovation and top flight medical care.
travelah, pfizer and roche are the leading drug producers, neither is based in the U.S. Development of new drugs won’t decline, cost of healthcare will. Consider how many uninsured Americans cross the Canadian border for healthcare and pharmaceuticals. I’m not saying the Mayo clinic isn’t one of the best hospitals in the world for critical care, but for health care in general (cost, quality, life expectancy) Canada is hands down supeior. Also, if we are to continue leading in scientific patents, then I’m sure you’re in favor of stem-cell research?
okay, I checked and Pfizer is based in NYC, but originally was German. Roche is foreign. No matter, they have lobbyists who are resposible for the over-inflated cost of pharmaceuticals in the U.S. Also, Canada is “superior” not supeior.
AsheJoe, as I have said, I think you will be happier living in the socialist utopias of either Canada, France, of the UK. Everything is perfect there for everyone and everything is free. Except the worker who has to give most of his property, e.i. earnings, to the government. And remember, the government that can give you everything you want can also take it away…and take YOU away, ala the full socialist utopia that is Cuba.
Just because Canada, France, and the UK allow capitalism doesn’t mean they are not socialist. These governments regulate and tax their companies to just this side of a dry turnip. They make slaves of the tax paying populace and the companies that produce goods and services.
Definition of modern socialism, from Karl Marx: “Socialism- a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done. The means of production is still privately owned, but the socialist government controls how much profit the capitalist enterprise may receive.”
All of this liberal vs. conservative back and forth is so funny! Especially since after the elections the Democrats will control the House, the Senate, and the White House. It’s gonna be great!
Travnam, your continued efforts to discredit Ashevegasjoe’s arguments only serve to demonstrate that you argue for the sake of argument. You do not search for truth and your mind is closed. Your position is untenable.
And how many Canadians come to America for health care? I’m sure you don’t know. But let me simplify it for you; rich people can go anywhere they want for health care. That is the advantage of wealth!
light&hope;, you need to get your rest in order to get up at 4 am again to post.
Ashevegasjoe, my point was not that there are no foreign pharmaceuticals, but that innovation and most significant developments are not occurring in the socialized countries. As for drug prices, the US consumer subsidizes Canadian and Mexican drug prices. That is one of the contributing reasons why drug research is almost nonexistent in Canada.
This is really way off topic for the thread.
There you go again with the ad-homonickle attacks…Dr. Sophista By the way’ I’m just getting home at 4:00am from working two jobs and fulltime school and I still find time to swat you and namvet around.
Travilah, as you were told earlier, Canada and Mexico are not socialist. What is your point by the way? Oh yeah, christian values, of which you display few!
travelah, definately way off thread and almost incohenrent, apparently U.S. consumers subsidize Canadian and Mexican prices, not drug companies who rape American consumers? Most innovations are not done by “Americans”, but German and Swiss scientists, I am not holding Canada as the bastion of research, but rather an example of universal health care that has made a populace content. Please offer a better alternative?
drug research does not equal health care
Travelah cares not for the truth, only the argument.
Sophist
There is such a thing as the tyranny of the majority. The fact that there are more Christians than any other faith does not give them the right to Lord that over us. Pun intended.
What Nam Vet wishes to convey, but is unable, is that the White, Christian Man is the most oppressed person in this country, hands down.
And if you ever tune into AM 570 during the daylight hours, you will be treated to a crash course in most of ‘his’ talking points. Only then will you understand the subtle humor that is the white male making up statistics and using one-sided opinions in regards to their own convuluded political ‘opinions’, handed straight down from Glen Beck (a ‘recovered’ drunkard), Rush (a pain-killer addict), and Sean Hanninity.
Nam Vet has more interest in flame-baiting and topic killing than in anything else.
The mountainx online gods know it is better to allow idiotic, formulaic posts such as ‘his’ to exists because it increases ‘debate’ on their site. More users, more ‘hits’ to show advertisers, etc.
If only that ‘ignore user’ function actual worked, and I could avoid having to read his idiotic, uninformed, substance-free attacks on logic and good-natured, well-informed debate.
Ron, lol, my my I think you must be smelling your own upper lip because you have ZERO insight into my mind. I don’t lockstep behind anyone whether it be the old Air America or Rush Limbaugh. The nastiness you spew informs the rest of us just what kind of a person you are. You could certainly benefit from spending Sundays in church.
It’s all about the love. Christ taught love. Love God and love your neighbor. Good words to live by whether you are a Christian or a neo-socialist liberal.
travelah, notice the choice of words the troll L&H;uses.
L&H;said “There you go again with the ad-homonickle attacks…Dr. Sophista By the way’ I’m just getting home at 4:00am from working two jobs and fulltime school and I still find time to swat you and namvet around.”
Notice the ad hominem word come up. Hum, do you suppose she morphed into your double with the capital “T”? :) And she said she works two jobs and has to drive all the way to Durham for school at Duke. LOL.
It’s all about the love!
As a freshman in college I wrote a paper on the plight of white males in modern America, my teacher wisely laughed and told me there was none. Now that I’m older and less angst filled, I see how ridiculous that idea was. it’s amazing how people who have the most power and political representation feel the most persecuted. The reality is there is no war against Christmas, morality, or marriage. It’s some underlying fear that stations like 570 and the Stompers just love to feed into, I guess as a means to control and to work people into a state of hysteria.
AsheJoe, it is rather ironic that “ron” whines when God knows he’s had life handed to him on a silver platter. He strikes me as the type of guy who takes himself seriously as he complains about his “rights” and how evil President Bush is. A guy who has had opportunity and education handed to him by his parents. “ron” has had no real adversity in his life, yet is full of judgement and complaint. “ron”, start spending your Sundays in church. Your angst will melt away in the love shown by the congregation. Yes, even yankee transplant malcontents are welcome.
It’s all about the love! Praise God Almighty! Merry Christmas to everyone!
Geez, this thread is supposed to be about love and here we have people degenerating into hate. Ron & Joe, take your ugliness somewhere else! And Merry Christmas to you both.
Fallstaff, I meant no “hate”, and fail to see where on Earth you find that in my comments. I love to listen to you, Ron, 570, etc. I love political discourse. If you interpreted my comments as hateful, I apologize. I just re-read them though, and really don’t see it or any “ugliness”. I have been even-handed and used no name-calling, your accusations are baseless.
Maybe so Joe. Say it aint so. Looking back it looks like it was just ron being hateful.
Love it or leave it!
Just curious… how many Carolina Stompers decorate Christmas Trees?
Folks, please research the December 25th holiday Yule. Then maybe we can all get along and celebrate the holidays together. And maybe dance around some trees kissing under mistletoe.
Irony: life is full of it!
Dave, good one. Not only is life full of it, but a lot of us people are too. -:) I say Merry Christmas, we still pray, it’s a baby not a choice, Happy Hannukah, and Happy Easter!
God bless y’all!
Nam Vet, I don’t want to live in Canada, France or the U.K. I am an American, and love this country and all the people in it. I only want health care reform. I’m so tired of people telling me “if you don’t like it, git out!” I love it here, I just want the country to stay number one, and progress in a manner that shows the rest of the world that we care about the planet and the humans that inhabit it. The countries I listed tax their citizens more, but provide health care. We tax less, but provide less health care (and usually later than when it should be provided), and this makes the cost of health care more for eveyone else. Is this increased cost of health care more than an increased tax? If you suffer a catastrophic illness (I had a very close relative die of pancreatic cancer last year), I would say no. Like I said, I would pay more in taxes to know that a catastrophic illness would not bankrupt me, how about you?
Aw, AsheJoe, you want other tax payers to pay for your health care? You know, if you drive a cheaper care you can afford it yourself!
But the theme of this thread is Christian love. So let us celebrate that! God bless everyone and Merry Christmas!
Ashevegasjoe, dip into your pocket and cough up $500 a month for catastrophic healthcare coverage and get out of my pocket. If you can’t handle that expense, give up some of your other spending or get a second job.
AsheJoe mentioned he is 30 years old and moved here from someplace else. So AsheJoe, are you one of those young pups who feels entitled? Well AsheJoe, I am not your daddy and I do not want to pay for your healthcare bill. I have been paying for my own all these years. You do the same.
Happy winter holladays.
I moved here sixteen years ago, and don’t need you to pay my bills, thanks. There are people who haven’t had it as easy as all of you condescending, sarcastic types. I’m only thinking of people less fortunate, WWJD? You guys are showing your true un-christlike nature. God Bless (If you have read my other posts you would see that regardless of your personal attacks, me and my family are southern and have been for over one hundred years, how ’bout you transplants?)
Also, since I have spent more than half of my life here, attended high school and college (pretty formative years), and have ran a small business in Ashevlle for eight years, I feel like I pretty much call it home. I’ve lived in Swannanoa, Alexander, Asheville, and my folks have lived in Madison for sixteen years, so maybe that makes us “transplants”, but I can’t remember living anywhere else. That somewhere else by the way, was Georgia (not really yankee-ville)
AsheJoe, glad to hear you are a Southerner, at least you have that going for you. WWJD? Yes Christ has asked us to help others, PRIVATELY. He refused to be pulled into politics of his day, so I feel certain he would not be in favor of nanny government socialism to “help others”. And if you are in favor of Hillary’s socialized healthcare, then you DO want me to pay for your care. I am a taxpayer. Make it on you own like the rest of us have. Besides, poor people can always get free healthcare at any emergency room in the country.
Viet Nam Vet, did Jesus refuse government support for parades then too, in order not to be “pulled in to politics”? That would follow from only wanting to help people privately.
Ashevegasjoe, I have not atttacked you. I am challenging your entitlement mentality. As for who has had it easy and who has not, you are not qualified to make that distinction. Nonetheless, my advice stands for anybody. Buy catastrophic healthcare coverage and if you cannot afford it, cut out your cable TV, cell phones, beer and other “necessities” and take a second job if needed. Now, you may not need it for yourself but you seem intentioned to dip into my pocket on behalf of others. Those with children who are having a rough go of it have a solution called Medicaid. The elderly have Medicare. Everybody else has this novel thing called work.
I am in favor of Obama’s voluntary plan, and would love to hear any alternatives. Unless you think we should keep it like it is? Also, Jesus did not favor governments of the day, but are you saying he would endorse not treating (or waiting until the last minute to treat) poor, sick people? It is our duty to find a better way to take care of people that are less fortunate. I don’t want hand outs, but I also don’t want people denied care. And if you say one more time everyone gets care… please note the mentally ill people being kicked out of hospitals, and the people denied preventative care. I’ll say it one more time, when people go to the E.R. and don’t pay, it drives the cost up for everyone (and often it costs more due to severity, and sometimes does no good). Please offer a solution. I will also re-iterate, I’m fine and don’t need or want your help–thanks though.
You all do know that jesus was not born on Dec 25th right? He was also a vegetarian and black. It just amazes me how “bible purists” so easily ignore the facts. Organized religion has done as much bad as good.
Travnam, you guys say the same thing over and over, not only that, it all flies in the face of reason. People present and make their cases and you guys just flame on them. These folks aren’t socialists, and they are not talking about socialized medicine. They are referring to government administered insurance. That means folks just pay less for their coverage. Insurance companies are leaches. If we get them off our backs, things will be better for all. Stop being trolls and actually add something to the thread.
BTW I live in Burlington, but I’m from Asheville
AsheJoe, drive up to Mission Hospital and ask them if everyone who comes in the door can be treated there, regardless of whether they can pay or not. And it doesn’t have to be a wait-til-the-last-minute emergency. They treat everyone. Ifyouhave insurance,they bill your company. If you dont you get treated anyway.
Good points travelah. And AsheJoe…life is not perfect and never will be. Socialism does not work and only makes matters WORSE.
Johnny, Jesus didn’t get involved in government, politics, or secular movements. His kingdom is not of this world. He bore witness to the Truth. That was his calling. But I’ll tell you, asa citizen,taxpayer,and combat veteran,I’m all in favor of tax money being used to put on Christmas parades. Merry Christmas, Happy Easter,and God bless you!
AsheJoe, it just occurred to me that if you have all this time to post all day, no wonder you cannot afford health insurance. Get yourself a JOB. :)
Let’s continue to have Christmas parades!
I wonder if Carl knew he would cause such a whirlwind with his simple letter to the editor. You go Carl. I vote for you.
O.K., Nam Vet, now that you’ve attacked my heritage and age, you’re moving on to my work ethic? I have spent the day shoveling and tamping gravel, and moving large rocks that I then set in concrete mixed by hand. On my breaks I check in to see just how ridiculous you can make this thread. I am building a retaining wall and flagstone walk-way at my house, and would love to see you try to keep up with me. As I have stated, I own a small landscaping company, am insured, and don’t need any tips from someone who I assume is retired and sits around all day thinking up personal attacks. Please come work with me for a day and see how you like it!
But, if we can keep with the theme, you still refuse to comment on the increase of health costs we all pay when these people go to the E.R. and don’t pay. I don’t need to go to Mission, that’s where my dad worked for fifteen years, and I realize our health costs are directly related to the “free” health care you speak of. But why would we debate when I’m sure you can think of something else to try to insult me with. Good Luck, I’m a pretty nice, hard-working, intelligent guy (and modest)!
No attacks from me AsheJoe. Relax. Just discussing and gently needling you a little. The comment about ‘get a job’ was obviously meant as a joke.
This thread has gotten way off kilter. It’s supposed to be about love. My each of us reaffirm our faith in Jesus Christ and act in a loving manner to all our brethren. God blessyou!
Joe, Jesus was not a vegetarian. There were no devout vegetarian Jews. Of course I would not expect you to realize that. Every devout Jew partook of the paschal lamb during Passover.
travelah, I find it fascinating that you know that no Jews in Christ’s time were vegetarians. Did you borrow Lady Passions’s crystal ball? There is no way ALL Jews were dead animal body part eaters, no way.
Jesus was about love and tolerance and certainly not the murder of defenseless animals for the taste buds of some. When Jesus spent 40 days in the desert, he ate manna from heaven, honey and veggie foods.
Can’t speak for every Joe, but I think Jesus was probably more Arabic than Black, as depicted on a recent National Geographic (not that it really matters). As for being vegetarian, didn’t he make fish for everyone to eat?
Nam Vet, if I relaxed anymore I would be invisible. I agree about getting off thread, and have nothin’ but love for all of you.
is nam veteran and viet nam vet like travelah and Travelah. Because I like the vet who needles me and seems pretty cool, but the one who chastises me for being thirty seems a little old and crotchety. I can’t keep up with all of these similar monikers.
of course there’s “joe”, “alias joe”, and me, so I guess you can’t judge a post by it’s moniker?
No AsheJoe. Someone at XPress decided my posts needed to be “checked” before publication. I prefer to have them published immediately, hence the moniker adjustment.
Jesus was a Jew. I do believe Jews and Arabs share some physical features. Jesus was not black. But all of this is a mute point because Jesus the Jew became Jesus the Christ, the Spirit within us all. So Christ lives within all people regardless of raceor culture. If we follow Jesus’ example and LOVE, then that Christness within US will also come to the forefront.
nam,
Every devout Hebrew was commanded to partake of the passaover meal and as illustrated with the LORD’s displeasure with Cain’s sacrifice, veggies just didn’t cut it :)
nam,
I missed the second comment … when the LORD was in the desert for 40 days, he had no manna or any other food according to the scriptures.
travelah, read this:
“While there may not be any direct references in the Bible by Jesus regarding a vegetarian diet, text does exist with Jesus teaching that we should not only be eating a vegetarian diet, but that we also should be eating a living-food diet (we should not be cooking our food). Jesus certainly taught compassion and love, so the thought of Jesus promoting a vegetarian diet should not be surprising to us. If you are a follower of Jesus, hopefully you will want to read the words he shared with the Essenes, found in ancient manuscripts from the 3rd century. If you are not a follower of Jesus, hopefully you will still be interested in his words. You do not need to be a follower of Jesus to understand the truth in these scriptures.
Here are some sections taken from The Essene Gospel of Peace with headings added. For the translations of the full scriptures, follow the link at the bottom of the page.
“Thou shalt not kill”
‘Thou shalt not kill,’ for life is given to all by God, and that which God has given, let not man take away. For-I tell you truly, from one Mother proceeds all that lives upon the earth. Therefore, he who kills, kills his brother. And from him will the Earthly Mother turn away, and will pluck from him her quickening breasts. And he will be shunned by her angels, and Satan will have his dwelling in his body. And the flesh of slain beasts in his body will become his own tomb. For I tell you truly, he who kills, kills himself, and whoso eats the flesh of slain beasts, eats of the body of death. For in his blood every drop of their blood turns to poison; in his breath their breath to stink; in his flesh their flesh to boils; in his bones their bones to chalk; in his bowels their bowels t o decay; in his eyes their eyes to scales; in his ears their ears to waxy issue. And their death will become his death.
“I have given you every herb bearing seed… to you it shall be for meat”
Kill not, neither eat the flesh of your innocent prey, lest you become the slaves of Satan. For that is the path of sufferings, and it leads unto death. But do the will of God, that his angels may serve you on the way of life. Obey, therefore, the words of God: ‘Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is breath of life, I give every green herb for meat.
“eat not anything which fire, or frost, or water has destroyed”
But I do say to you: Kill neither men, nor beasts, nor yet the food which goes into your mouth. For if you eat living food, the same will quicken you, but if you kill your food, the dead food will kill you also. For life comes only from life, and from death comes always death. For everything which kills your foods, kills your bodies also. And everything which kills your bodies kills your souls also. And your bodies become what your foods are, even as your spirits, likewise, become what your thoughts are. Therefore, eat not anything which fire, or frost, or water has destroyed. For burned, frozen and rotted foods will burn, freeze and rot your body also. Be not like the foolish husbandman who sowed in his ground cooked, and frozen, and rotten seeds. And the autumn came, and his fields bore nothing. And great was his distress. But be like that husbandman who sowed in his field living seed, and whose field bore living ears of wheat, paying a hundredfold for the seeds which he planted. For I tell you truly, live only by the fire of life, and prepare not your foods with the fire of death, which kills your foods, your bodies and your souls also.”
“It is the fire which blazes outside your body, which is hotter than your blood. With that fire of death you cook your foods in your homes and in your fields. I tell you truly, it is the same fire which destroys your foods and your bodies, even as the fire of malice, which ravages your thoughts, ravages your spirits. For your body is that which you eat, and your spirit is that which you think. Eat nothing, therefore, which a stronger fire than the fire of life has killed. Wherefore, prepare and eat all fruits of trees, and all grasses of the fields, and afl milk of beasts good for eating. For all these are fed and ripened by the fire of life; all are the gift of the angels of our Earthly Mother. But eat nothing to which only the fire of death gives savor, for such is of Satan.”
“So eat always from the table of God: the fruits of the trees, the grain and grasses of the field, the milk of beasts, and the honey of bees. For everything beyond these is of Satan, and leads by the way of sins and of diseases unto death. But the foods which you eat from the abundant table of God give strength and youth to your body, and you will never see diseases
Eat, therefore, all your life at the table of our Earthly Mother, and you will never see want. And when you eat at her table, eat all things even as they are found on the table of the Earthly Mother. Cook not, neither mix all things one with another, lest your bowels become as steaming bogs. For I tell you truly, this is abominable in the eyes of the Lord.
What would Jesus do? What would Jesus eat? These scriptures help clarify what Jesus would have eaten and what he would have recommended to others.
The online version of the ESSENE GOSPEL OF PEACE (book one) is brought to us by The Essene Nazarean Church of Mount Carmel. Other books of The Essene Gospel of Peace can be found here.””
source: http://www.soystache.com/jesus.htm
Now before someone at XPress starts admonishing us to keep on thread, let us restate that the intent of this thread is about love. Jesus taught love. And he did not kill. He ate like alamb and was gentle with the children of both people and cows and sheep. God bless you!
Nam, I am not an Essene and the accounts you are suggesting are considered spurious by nearly every serious theologian. I would rather rely on the Bible instead as the accurate record of Jesus Christ. Now, until these revisionist groups begin to deal with the requirement of the Passover meal, the notion that Jesus and other devout Hebrews were vegetarians is not a credible position. Nam, you are engaging me on my own turf as a Christian and Theological Apologist and while I am very interested in this matter, it really is not the topic of the thread.
Nam, you give a terrible picture of a Christian if you’d like to convert others. Often mocking and cruel, rarely nice or kind, full of vitriol and ill-tempered remarks, lacking the ability to listen, and stuck in your views.
Do you try to behave like a Christian should behave, I’m just curious. I mean, if I was to consider becoming a Christian, would mimicking your behavior be the way to go?
I have some Christian friends up north, should I also begin to denigrate them for being from there, just to start practicing up? What about my hispanic friends, can I really lay into them as well?
travelah, “serious theologians” get Christ’s teaching wrong. So why can’t they get this wrong too? The Essene’s are just one example of Jews who did not kill and eat animal body parts. The main thing “serious theologians” get wrong is this: Christ never said he was the ONLY son of God. He never said he died on the cross to pay for the sins of mankind current, past and future. He did not come to start a religion.
And just for the record, this is definitely part of the thread. Jesus was a man who became Awakened to his Christ nature. He spoke the Truth wherever he went. The Truth he taught was this, what he called the greatest commandment. Love God and love your fellow man (& woman of course). That’s the whole ballgame right there. Love and, “behold the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand” (here and now). As Carl has said, “Let’s make this about love.”
Carl is to love as Bush is to intellect. Does he love illegal immigrants, non-christians, liberals, or people with substance abuse problems. It seems to me that he exploits these people for political gain. Certainly not out of love. Good luck running for Congress Carl, because I’m sure that your time on City Council is limited. You’ll probably loose any re-election bid by.. I don’t know… 5-1?
Ah AsheJoe your 880am The Revolution brainwash is showing. :) Carl is a conservative, therefore he must not be a nice person, and be guilty of all the faults you spew above. Goodness knows we need only progressive socialists on Council…you know the “good” people. :)
I’d say Carl has plenty of love for his fellow man. I’ve not heard him utter anything else. He cares enough about the community to make sure the APD gets after drug dealing in the poor neighborhoods. He cares about hard working Ashevillians being taxed into the poorhouse by big spending, “we’ll never have enough parks” Fab Four fauxprogs.
Carl, thanks for your hard work on behalf of Asheville. Thanks for keeping Christmas as our traditional December parade.
Remember all, Jesus loves you! God bless everyone! And everyone make sure to have a Merry Christmas come December 25!
Nam vet, I give equal time to 880, 570, the AGR, and the Tribune. Your attempts to pigeonhole me are laughable. Carl has ambitions for congress, and that is noble. However, to think that he takes these positions out of “love” is utterly ludicrous. He doesn’t work on behalf of Asheville, but rather the “Moral Majority”, which is neither. He doesn’t “utter” anything else because he is a psychologist, and is subversive. He speaks in a soft tone while he lambasts and degrades you. He massages you into complacency while dominating your belifs. Carl can’t win another city election, so he has to win congress. I refuse to vote for a person who has ambitions of representing a district, when the people in the city he represents abhore him. He clearly votes 5-1, for political gain. I read the matters discussed by council and he votes against the majority out of spite, not out of any real reason. He is setting himself as the candidate who has fought against the liberal Asheville City Council, when ,many of his votes are ridiculous and out of spite. Good luck Carl, also I have spoken with psychologists, they know him for the manipulative douchebag that he is.
beliefs
AsheJoe, you may listen to Take A Stand and other 570am shows,but you parrot the opinions from 880 am…and AGR. You continue to paint Carl as a stereotype conservative…stereotype from the leftist view. Geez man, let go of the programing and let’s have a free debate. Carl is not a puppet of the religious right. And I applaud him for the courage of his convictions to stand up to the Fab Four in the previous Council.
Finally,we should be debating points of view,not the character of the person we disagree with. I believe that is called ad hominem. You know I thought I knew it all when I was30.Now that I’m 59, I measure more by what I don’t know, which gets bigger each year of age. :)
Nam Vet writes,
“Finally, we should be debating points of view, not the character of the person we disagree with.”
Well, welcome aboard there, buddy.
Try and remember to practice what you preach, eh?
It’s fine if you’re gonna be a hater, but to keep coming out with the love, smiles, and God Bless you crap, only to be then followed up with more of the same backhanded attacks does little service to your attempts at being taken seriously.
Johnny the first post you made about me was all attack. If you’ve felt that in return, it is only because I am a reactionary to liberal hate…first flung by you. :)
Johnny, where’s the love. See you in church Sunday! First Baptist. God bless you!
Please review all of your posts and all of mine, Nam Vet, and you’ll see so much more “character bashing” on your part it’s ridiculous. You’ve called me “dummy”, “neanderthal”, and a series of other ill-chosen labels, not to mention the words you’ve picked for others here.
I have a good memory. You’ve had a negative tone right from the getgo. I also don’t recall you having much to say that has any substance. Another liberal empty suit spouting Air America/moveon.org bumper sticker leftist dogma. Some may call this ‘ad hominem’. I just call it observation. :) Johnny quit taking yourself so seriously and adopt the Southern, laid back personna I know is hiding inside somewhere. Life is a beach, get a tan and smile!
Carl,again thanks for this post. Thanks for sticking up for common sense, the traditional America way, and Asheville. God bless you, and God bless us all!
Nam Vet, if you want to keep the debate focused on facts, why do keep attempting to debase my comments by referring to my age. I don’t think I know it all, if I did I would stop reading the books and periodicals that I consume daily. I hope that when I’m as old as you I am wiser, but the fact that I’m thirty, doesn’t really make me wet behind the ears. I have called you out on many facts and YOU have attacked my heritage, my job, and most recently my age (which I am in no way ashamed of). Maybe you are starting to feel the effects of old age and senility, because you can’t remeber all of the attempted attacks on my character you have assailed in the last week! I don’t want to engage in personal attacks, but for you to act like that is not a tactic you commonly employ is laughable.
Lastly, I “parrot opinions” from 880, because I am a liberal, and they are a liberal station. Just like you and Carl “parrot opinions” voiced by Rush, Sean and Glenn Beck. The difference is our opinions are based is rationality, yours are handed down directly from the administration’s talking points, which they give out to right-wing tools at weekly meetings (i.e. Tony Snow). I frequently think of an idea only to have it echoed by people on 880, you here an idea on 570 an echo it back ad nauseum. If Carl is so loving and full of common sense, why does he suggest that enforcing immigration laws is a job for Asheville City government? I would think for personal political gain, as this is clearly a state, if not federal job. He can exploit people who are brown to get votes from his predominately white, christian base. Where is the love?
Vet, you can’t be serious — continuing to be so consistently negative about the characters you attack here and at the same time playing yourself off as a loving Christian.
Several of my friends are politically very conservative and read your comments with mocking amusement. Another is a very kind and gentle Christian and has given up reading these posts because it disturbs her to be in the same religious camp as you (and others here) claim to be in.
Something to think about.
AsheJoe said “if you want to keep the debate focused on facts…”. Then stop with the knee-jerk bumper sticker Air America/880am propaganda. Give an original comment AsheJoe! Think for yourself, it’s a wonderful feeling.
AsheJoe and Johnny, God bless you both! Jesus loves you! And so does Carl.
all of my comments on this thread were about Carl, and I’m sure that 880 and Air America don’t cover him. All of my comments are my own, your defense of “traditional” values seems like a big load of propaganda. If it’s such a wonderful feelilng to think for yourself, then why are you so bankrupt of original ideas? like I said, stick to facts and not personal attacks, I assure you my ideas don’t come from the radio or bumper stickers. I read, whenever I get a chance (conservative, liberal, biographies, and fiction). I also write and come-up with original thought continuously. Your assertions debase your attempts at discrediting me. Let’s see, first my heirtage, then my age, then my work ethic, and now all of my ideas are propaganda? Could you please use some shred of philosophical or political fact/theory? This question is, of course, rhetorical.
AsheJoe, you don’t know Carl.Other than your knee jerk liberal socialist angst against anyone who is conservative. Peace and love dude! Jesus loves you!
I like Carl. He is a good man. He watches out for Asheville. We got to have more Carls to outweigh the Brownie Newmans.
Carl thanks for sticking up for Christmas parades. We here in WNC are Christian for the most part. A lot of these yankees who’ve moved here aren’t I guess. I think they make their politics a religion, like a fellow said above. Yankee newcomers, it just isn’t polite to come down here and mess with our traditions.
Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.
I don’t know Carl, I judge him based on his votes, public record, and what his peers in the pschological community have told me. Nam Vet, how do you know him? Are you fishin’ buddies? I don’t know what you mean by knee-jerk socialist angst, but it certainly stirs up emotions and I’m sure conservatives would agree with you. If by knee-jerk, you mean I react to a stimulus, this is often true. If by socialist, you mean I appreciate the Fire Department, Police Department, and Post Office, you got me there.
Billy– I don’t want to mess with your traditions, I just don’t want to subsidize them with public funds and publi servants. Not all change is bad, and in fact change is constant.
I know Jesus loves me, I love him too! I even love the people who wage war and deny healthcare to poor people in his name (does he feel the same?)
Jesus doesn’t want socialist government run healthcare. He wants us to pray for health, live a pure life, and if we get sick ask the church for help if you don’t have the money. Governments oppress. Churches deliver freedom! Amen! Praise the Lord!
Carl Mumpower is a good man, and he goes to church Sundays. Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so! If I die before I wake, I pray my soul for Him to Take! Yes Jesus loves me!
In some countries, Billy, there is government-backed health care. Lots of countries. And there are lots of Christians in those countries. So how do you know what “Jesus” wants here, if other places want something different and believe in Jesus too?
Johnny, “government backed healthcare” means very high taxes for working people and a system that just doesn’t work very well. The government is slow, not user friendly, and is inefficient. Johnny get some backbone and make your own way in life. A big nanny socialist government will not make your life better. You being an individualist who pulls himself up by his own bootstraps…now that will make your life better! I know you have it in you. Search deep…around the lower stomach area.
Billy, I haven’t taken a public stand on health care here on this board, now have I? You have no idea where I stand on the topic.
What I was pointing out was your attempt at dragging your religion along in suggesting Jesus somehow has his mind made up on health care. Hilarious.
I’m more of an individualist than you might think, and certainly I don’t need some religion telling me how to think, nor do I need one to try and cloak around my ideas in a weak attempt to bolster them.
Now, who needs the backbone again?
Billy– where do I begin, do you support the Fire Dept.? It is socialist. The post office and police dept. too! Get some backbone and read a book. The big nanny gov’t has been savin’ our asses for a long time, and will continue to. Did you see 60 min.? The happiest nation in the world for the last decade is Denmark and they pay 50% of their income in taxes. If you knew that you and your children were safe, could be educated (through a doctorate level), and healthcare would be free, would you not give up some of your income? I know you wouldn’t, this of course is rhetorical.
In terms of Carl, Ted Haggart and Larry Craig went to church on Sundays, are they good men? Going to church doesn’t make you good, your actions do– search deep in your soul
Johnny glad you are an individualist. Sorry if I mistook you. And glad to hear you don’t feel you have to love Jesus, but love Him anyway out of your own free will. AMEN! Love the Lord Jesus Christ with all your heart and love you fellows as you would yourself. Amen! Praise the Lord!
Joe the only reason you think Denmark is the happiest place is because you saw a TV show. Boy are you naive. Maybe you should move to a socialist country for a while and check it out first hand, then report back to us. Joe, you will never feel fulfilled until you accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal savior. AMEN! Fall on your knees and hear the angel voices. Jesus loves you this I know for the Bible tells us so!
“And glad to hear you don’t feel you have to love Jesus, but love Him anyway out of your own free will.”
Sorry, Billy, I don’t “love Jesus”. But you already knew that, right?
You’re a plant. A troll. See ‘ya.
Billy– I think that because it was on 60 min., and it referenced a study that has gone on for decades, that has shown Denmark’s residents to be the happiest for the last fifteen years. I don’t want to move there, just using it as an example. I love how you guys are the first to tell somebody to leave the country when they try to make it better.
If you’re hearing “angel voices”, you might need psychologial help. If they tell you kill, don’t listen, seek professionals for help.
My daughter used to say that prayer before bed. AsheJoe, no wonder you are liberal if you hate the church. Oh wait, that’s right, liberalism is your religion. Then you should have more religious tolerance.
Like Carl so eloquently said above, it’s about the love. The love of Jesus Christ our savior. We still celebrate Christmas at my house and still go to the Christmas Parade.
Life is a tale told by an idiot — full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
William Shakespeare (1564 – 1616)
“Life is a tale told by a yankee transplant-full of angelic voices, signifying nothing.”
-NM
Nam Vet,
I don’t hate the church, I don’t hate Christians. I have made this statement ad nauseum. I just finiished reading a book from Thomas Moore, and greatly apppreciate the contributions from Christians. I have, in my short life, attended Southern Baptist, Catholic, and Pentecostal churches, and have many friends that still do. Your ignorance and brazen assumptions about me are astounding. However, having seen your posts, not surprizing.
I have more tolerance than you will ever know, as evidenced by your constant attacks on liberalism. While I defend the right of people like yourself to talk, in hopes that your lunacy will come to the light(and it has).
This Just In: The war on Christmas is a hoax, perpetrated by O’reilly. Nobody wants to stop you from celebrating or praying, I personally encourage it. For the last time, THE issue, no matter how you try to spin it, is using public resources to endorse a specific religion.
If your life is a tale told by yankee transplants, you are a sad, bitter man.
Geez AsheJoe, lighten up man. Get a sense of humor! Far from bitter, young man. This is one of the best periods of my life because I am retired, have my heath, and have a lot of friends. Sometimes I post here to just vent a little, like I think most do.
There is a culture war going on with liberal anti-traditionalists trying to smash most everything good about this country. It is ironic that the freedoms and opportunity we have in this country, recently a direct result of the Reagan revolution, enable liberals to do well also. The very socialism liberals want to enact, will kill the middleclass and our prosperity. Then we will revert to the national malaise of the Jimmah Cahtah years when we had double digit unemployment, 15% house mortgages, double digit inflation, and 70% tax rates on the “rich”. Notice that wasn’t enough to make for prosperity then, and it won’t now. All it will do is kill incentive and kill investment. Then everyone loses. Socialism sucks.
Vote for Obama until the Wicked Witch Hillary is done for, then back McCain and slime Obama! There is still a lot of Swift Boat justice left for him too! :)
As soon as you call Nam Vet on his hatefulness and arrogant adherence to ill-found ideas, he starts in with the “get a life, have a sense of humor” stuff.
Vet, your arguments are irrational and provide marginal service to anyone interested in having an actual discussion, if that.
Have a good day.
nam– The “Reagan Revolution” was based on the trickle down economics that never trickled down. Our current recession, however, can be attributed to the current ridiculous spending on defense and the “big” government started by neo-cons and continued by the bushes. I am not totally liberal, in that I believe in fiscal conservatism (ala Goldwater). Your economic heroes have only indebted us to China, and done far more damage to the economy than Carter. Everyone likes to blame Jimmy, when the fact is he inherited a country devastated from years of war and Republican led presidencies. Just like Obama will inherit this mess that was made by a “conservative”. I use quotes because Reagan and Bush are neo-cons, and spend more than any Democrat ever has. They also expand government, both by creating new departments and increasing the powers of the executive branch. I would love to see a fiscally conservative president, but it ain’t gonna happen, especially if it is a Republican.
Also, you and your buddies love to throw the “socialism” word around to scare people. The truth is there are many socialist programs that are in place and work great. No one president is going to make this a socialist country, just as your leaders have not been able to privatize everything like they hoped to do. Even after Bush, there still exist checks and balances, and elected officials. I know you guys have nightmares about Hillary turning this place into China, but it’s not happening. Actually, China is becoming more capitalistic. But if you think you can scare people into voting for an adulterous liberal (McCain not Clinton), by using word like “socialist”, “communist”, “terrorist”.. good luck. Barack takes it in stride, and as Hillary has proven, if you attack him, you will look like hot-heads. And everyone knows Johnny has some anger-management issues. I found it odd that you were so critical of Clinton for committing adultery, but are now willing to back McCain. I know, it’s unsubstantiated, and it’s the liberal New York Times, blah blah blah. When he runs for the presidency the truth will come out, and it will be hillarious.
Please try to “swift boat” Obama, the American people are tired of negative attacks and divisive political pundits. This could be a bigger landslide than Ronnie beating Dukakis!
Also, it may not come across– but I am as light-hearted as I am tolerant. I know you accuse me of being neither, but once again your assumptions about me are erroneous. I love having a good time, I love all the people of this country, and the world, but I do take the current situation seriously, as it effects all of us. God Bless
nam vet and travelah are finally silenced!!!
victory is ours!!!!!!1
Hell yeah, Joe…
Sing it:
Cel-e-brate good times, c’mon!
Thank you Mr Mumpower for a nice post. Love is wonderful in all it’s forms. Christmas always makes me more loving The parades are so special.Let’s continue them!
Jesus is smiley.shiny.happy. With good luck, aslo! I want to Parade with Jesus all the day!
Good times!
ashevegasjoe, aint it real cool how the racist Republicans slipped a negro in for their new boss? That ought to through the progs off the trail for a bit, eh? Imagine that.
(how do you prefer your crow prepared?)
So…who cares? It proves nothing nada. Ol’ Strom Thurmond liked black people too (fifteen year old black girls to be precise) And that little fact proves nothing either. The only crows we’re eating around here are named Jim. Wait , are you the fake travelah? That would explain the dimwitted comment you just made.
travelah–my point was made abundantly clear above, they appoint blacks to high level positions (i.e. secretary rice), your base will not elect them, because it is racist christian conservatives. When you nominate a Presidential Candidate who’s a minority I’ll take my crow well done. These nominations are great for show, but put a black on the ticket and watch the base freak out.
Now Eli, you are eating Jim Crow and think yourself witty while attacking a dead man … come now, you can do better.
Ashevegasjoe, I’m a Christian conservative and I identified black politicians I would vote for if they ran. Your charge has no basis in fact especially in light of the fact that neither the Democrats or Republicans have nominated a black candidate for the Presidency in the history of this nation. The fact that Democrats may now do so does not explain the absence of such in the past. Have Democrats been comprised of a pack of liberal racists until an epiphany in 2008?
Maybe you don’t recall the multiple runs at the presidency by Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson? I already made this point, you guys don’t even put minorities up there, because you know your base won’t vote for them. Your appointees don’t a candidate make. My charge not only has merit, but historical fact.
Ashevegasjoe, in all sincerity, you are not well versed in political history. Neither Sharpton or Jackson secured the nomination of their own liberal party, that being the standard you have set to avoid the charge of racism. The same can be said of Shirley Chisholm in 1972 (who by the way was probably the most reasonable and well qualified black candidate who has ever run for the Presidency). On the Republican side, I believe Alan Keyes is of African-American descent. Let’s not forget the first black American popularly elected to the US Senate, Republican Edward Brooke, who positioned himself to run for the Presidency until he was defeated by Paul Tsongas in the 1978 Massachusetts Senate election. In fact, perhaps you might examine how many U.S. Senators the Democrats have filled with black Americans. I’ll help you out. There have only been two in the last 100 years and one of them is running for the Presidency now.
As for your charge having merit, the success of that statement depends on how much of the historical record you wish to ignore and how much you wish to revise.
So, travelah, we’re using the “you guys do it too defense”? Your comments are smarmy and disingenuous. I suspect there was a time when your mind was much sharper, but I suspect your mental integrity has been damaged by your irrational beliefs. You’re not even a mainstream christian, you accursed Arminian apologist.
This is off the subject, but while doing some research on strom thurmond, I came across this list: And feel free to research these people independently.
Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth is a convicted child rapist in Florida.
Republican County Commissioner David Swartz pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 11 and was sentenced to 8 years in prison.
Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.
Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer and offering a bounty to anybody who murders an abortion doctor.
Republican legislator Edison Misla Aldarondo was sentenced to 10 years in prison for raping his daughter between the ages of 9 and 17.
Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls.
Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl.
Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator Strom Thurmond had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child.
Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a sexual affair with a female juvenile.
Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl.
*Republican activist Lawrence E. King, Jr. organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
*Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
Republican Congressman Donald “Buz” Lukens was found guilty of having sex with a female minor and sentenced to one month in jail.
Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges and paying two teenage girls to pose for sexual photos.
Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.
Republican activist Randal David Ankeney pleaded guilty to attempted sexual assault on a child.
Republican Congressman Dan Crane had sex with a female minor working as a congressional page.
Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader Beverly Russell admitted to an incestuous relationship with his step daughter.
Republican governor Arnold Schwarzenegger allegedly had sex with a 16 year old girl when he was 28.
*Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert Bauman was charged with having sex with a 16-year-old boy he picked up at a gay bar.
Republican Committee Chairman Jeffrey Patti was arrested for distributing a video clip of a 5-year-old girl being raped.
Republican activist Marty Glickman (a.k.a. “Republican Marty”), was taken into custody by Florida police on four counts of unlawful sexual activity with an underage girl and one count of delivering the drug LSD.
*Republican legislative aide Howard L. Brooks was charged with molesting a 12-year old boy and possession of child pornography.
Republican Senate candidate John Hathaway was accused of having sex with his 12-year old baby sitter and withdrew his candidacy after the allegations were reported in the media.
*Republican preacher Stephen White, who demanded a return to traditional values, was sentenced to jail after offering $20 to a 14-year-old boy for permission to perform oral sex on him.
Republican talk show host Jon Matthews pleaded guilty to exposing his genitals to an 11 year old girl.
Republican anti-gay activist Earl “Butch” Kimmerling was sentenced to 40 years in prison for molesting an 8-year old girl after he attempted to stop a gay couple from adopting her.
Republican Party leader Paul Ingram pleaded guilty to six counts of raping his daughters and served 14 years in federal prison.
Republican election board official Kevin Coan was sentenced to two years probation for soliciting sex over the internet from a 14-year old girl.
*Republican politician Andrew Buhr was charged with two counts of first degree sodomy with a 13-year old boy.
Republican politician Keith Westmoreland was arrested on seven felony counts of lewd and lascivious exhibition to girls under the age of 16 (i.e. exposing himself to children).
Republican anti-abortion activist John Allen Burt was charged with sexual misconduct involving a 15-year old girl.
*Republican County Councilman Keola Childs pleaded guilty to molesting a male child.
Republican activist John Butler was charged with criminal sexual assault on a teenage girl.
Republican candidate Richard Gardner admitted to molesting his two daughters.
Republican Councilman and former Marine Jack W. Gardner was convicted of molesting a 13-year old girl.
*Republican County Commissioner Merrill Robert Barter pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual contact and assault on a teenage boy.
Republican City Councilman Fred C. Smeltzer, Jr. pleaded no contest to raping a 15 year-old girl and served 6-months in prison.
Republican activist Parker J. Bena pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer and was sentenced to 30 months in federal prison and fined $18,000.
Republican parole board officer and former Colorado state representative, Larry Jack Schwarz, was fired after child pornography was found in his possession.
*Republican strategist and Citadel Military College graduate Robin Vanderwall was convicted in Virginia on five counts of soliciting sex from boys and girls over the internet.
Republican city councilman Mark Harris, who is described as a “good military man” and “church goer,” was convicted of repeatedly having sex with an 11-year-old girl and sentenced to 12 years in prison.
Republican businessman Jon Grunseth withdrew his candidacy for Minnesota governor after allegations surfaced that he went swimming in the nude with four underage girls, including his daughter.
Republican director of the “Young Republican Federation” Nicholas Elizondo molested his 6-year old daughter and was sentenced to six years in prison.
Republican benefactor of conservative Christian groups, Richard A. Dasen Sr., was charged with rape for allegedly paying a 15-year old girl for sex. Dasen, 62, who is married with grown children and several grandchildren, has allegedly told police that over the past decade he paid more than $1 million to have sex with a large number of young women.
Eli, I hope you didn’t cause a cramp in your fingers. Was there a point you were trying to make? (incidentally, Arminian thought comprises the dominant stream of Protestant Christianity with Calvinism being a distinct minority in Protestant Christendom … just so you know for future reference)
Sharpton and Jackson didn’t secure the nomintation of their party, but they won states and were serious contenders. Keyes as a candidate is laughable, he “ran” this time but only showed up in one debate and then disappeared again. I would argue that Keyes has never mounted any serious presidential run, not even garnering the support of Paul or Kucinich.
Really good job of twisting my words, my “standard” of the charge of racism, was, and still is the lack of minorities in the G.O.P., and the inability to put forth a candidate who is a minority, because their base is conservative christians who will only vote for people who are the same. This is in response to the charge that liberals have duped minorities in to being in the Democratic party (which I have stated is condescending at best). My point: Democrats get more of the minority vote because they represent a more diverse and accepting party. They have been at the forefront of appointing women and minorities, and fighting for individual and civil rights. Conservatives strive to limit conventional norms, limit personal freedoms, and limit rights to privacy as well as women’s rights. This was all well posted above, and now you’re spinning it into splitting hairs and historical references from the seventies. I guess that’s the only response possible, as all of my original charges are true. Your base, the conservative christians, the moral majority, etc. can be directly traced back to segregationists and the K.K.K. All groups using Chrianity to advance racism, mysogony, homophobia, and generally keeping the power where it has always been, the hands of rich white men. That’s no revision of history, it is fact.
Eli–great post, to bad travelah dosn’t apprecitate the conciseness of a list of hypocritical conservative republicans, that grows by the day. I got the point quite clearly, those who cry foul (ala Gingrich attacking Clinton for adultery while he cheated on his wife), are usually doing the same things they publicly decry, behind closed doors. Consrvatism=Reppresion
Also, I just did some research on travelah’s charge that the democrats have only filled two senate seats with black americans (one Mosely-Braun a woman), as it seemed hard to believe, but he was right. What he fails to mention is that the two they nominated are twice the number of Republican senators, the ONE you mentioned in you post. Good point– I can split hairs too!
Please see post above on judiciary posts for more historical facts.