The governor of Texas recently spoke approvingly of the possibility of seceding.
Frankly, my dears (and admittedly, I may be showing my Yankee roots here), if I were President Obama, and the governor clearly asserted secession or independence, I would take just the opposite tack of Republican Lincoln—if for no other reason than the element of surprise.
The first thing I’d do is federalize the Texas National Guard and Reserves, and then (unlike Fort Sumter in 1861) order them and all other U.S. military forces in Texas to redeploy, with all their armaments, to states bordering Texas. (Some reservists or their commanders might resist, but considering how these true American patriots have repeatedly deployed to [serious] conflict duty in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last eight years with almost total unanimity, I have no doubt that nearly all would obey their orders.)
The next step I’d take is to remove all U.S. Border Patrol personnel and equipment, again to the borders surrounding Texas. As well, [withdraw] all other federal employees (including judicial, postal service and other Homeland Security personnel) who want to keep their jobs, along with whatever equipage and provisions that could also be removed.
Let the governor and the Texas Rangers (intrepid though the Rangers are) hold back the “Mexican hordes” (as the governor’s supporters might call them), and subdue the murderous drug cartels along the Rio Grande etc. (Sound like the Alamo?)
Next, of course, I’d cut off not just stimulus funds, but all remaining civilian funding to the former state of Texas. That, as for any state, currently includes extensive monies for local and state police forces, education, interstate and local highways and infrastructure, state health and medical services, unemployment insurance, FDIC bank-account insurance, Federal Reserve support for banks themselves, federal mortgage facilities and subsidies, arms and military-supply manufacturing contracts within the state, farm (including ranch) subsidies etc.
For those to whom the implications of all this are not obvious, I suggest that they go back and re-study American history. I’m sure these implications are understood by President Obama, but [perhaps] not to his extreme right-wing opponents.
Abraham Lincoln may have saved the Union from the divisiveness of slavery. But 60-some years later, Republican Herbert Hoover accelerated the 1920s economic anarchy (similar to recent times) into the Great Depression. That forced Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal to forge needed, pervasive rescue programs for the American economy, and then, extraordinarily extensive security measures [assuring] U.S. predominance in Depression-driven World War II.
And, for better or for worse, those fundamental changes ensured that—forever after—the American states would be so interdependent for their economies and security, and thus so interwoven [with] their federal government, that Roosevelt had thereby preserved the Republic (of the U.S., not Texas), for all practicality and for all posterity, from any other possible cause of its dissolution.
— Wayne Bastedo
Hendersonville
…which has led to precisely the mess we are in right now.
I am perfectly happy to let Texas secede. I am also happy to let Hawaii, California, Oregon, Washington State, Alaska, Ohio, New York, Florida, North & South Dakota, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine secede, all of which are States with active and viable secession movements in them. It is to might great regret that the secessionist impulse is evidently not more keenly felt in Western North Carolina. Quite frankly, not dealing with the Fed, the American military-industrial complex, ecosystem-destroying agribusinesses, the increasingly militaristic and bloodthirsty DEA and Homeland Security, and the other trappings of the USA would come as an enormous relief to me.
And no, I will not move. I love this nation, this culture, this people. I just do not love this government. I have not loved this government for over twenty years, and no change in President or other politician is going to change that.
Secession is a fundamental human right. It is an inalienable right, as inalienable as the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. No amount of petty laws or treaties will change that. No attempts of intimidation and fear-mongering will change that. No amount of violence or repression will change that. This country _will_ break apart, like an overripe melon, most probably within the next fifty years. Hopefully some good will grow out of the remains. The only choice you have is how much unnecessary pain and hardship you will cause along the way, trying to prevent the inevitable.
Well Wayne, were that to happen you might have to withdraw from more than just one state. I doubt this would ever happen though. Secession is a last resort for an angry people.
As for whether those states National Guard troops would fall in step with an Obamunist government over their own states is certainly open for speculation. I suspect under those circumstances they would not.
In any event this is all just fantastic speculation and it goes along with your revisions and inaccurate presentation of history.
Actually, this is a great game ….
Let’s add Louisiana and a few southwestern states along with this and perhaps even a couple more southern states. What would you have? It would be a fairly populous and prosperous region with warm water ports, several large modern airports, extensive energy reserves and a welcoming business climate. Since it’s impetus is small and less intrusive government, the tax burden upon it’s citizens would be considerably less and a welcome haven for those over-taxed and socialist regulated industries of the northern US (what is left of them).
Great game it is.
Who needs secession when there’s Somalia? Somalia’s already free of organized government since 1991 and heck, any legitimate economist knows that any red state that seceded would be a third world country within a month anyways.
Check out this short ad for why the tea party crowd should pack their bags and leave for Somalia, the “libertarian paradise,” where you will find ” a free market haven where the police, roads, and navy are maintained by rational self-interest and libertarian magic dust.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDv4sYwjO0&eurl=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/06/somalia-libertarian-parad_n_197763.html&feature=player_embedded
“any legitimate economist knows that any red state that seceded would be a third world country within a month anyways.”
That’s a rather bizzare assestion, entopticon. I suspect its borne more out of your convictions and wish-fufillment that any sort of evidence (I also suspect that we would heartily disagree over who a legitimate economist would be.)
As this interview (http://www.reason.com/news/show/132942.html) states, Somalia was improving after the revolution, without a centralized government. It was still not a great place to live compared to, say, Key West, but it was improving, and doing pretty good compared to the surrounding region. Then the US tried to fix things. If anything, the current state of Somalia is a good argument against the US government being in charge of anything whatsoever.
But all this is besides the point. The question is not how well or not well a secessionist state would function. The question is whether people in that state have the right to secede. The answer is they do.
I will make a deal with you Johnny, if you start a movement to get libertarians to relocate to Somalia, I will start an organization to help pay for their plane fair. Somalia is awesome. Lot’s of sun. Tell all your friends.
As far as bizarre assertions go, anything even suggesting that red states don’t massively depend on the federal tit to keep afloat is more than just bizarre; it is just plain ridiculous. Take away the taxed revenue from states such as California, New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Michigan, and the infrastructure of states like Wyoming and Mississippi would fold like Bangladesh in an instant.
Ironically, TX is the only red state whose economy would be close enough for it to be even be fathomable without devolving into a third world country, but even TX would all but certainly collapse without federal assistance.
Johnny, that is the key, whether there is a right to secede. Of course the Federal government would object and the truth be told, so would most of the citizenry in the country. However, I agree with you that an inalienable right can be exercised. The states involved have to be prepared to defend their actions though.
I am more intrigued over the question of it’s viability. The economic haven that could be created would far outperform the US current balance of payments which we have not even begun to feel the effects of.
A point to make regarding Texas is that they receive only 94 cents for every dollar submitted to the US Treasury so in that regard, secession would be a net gain. However, they would have to have a slightly higher tax rate than now because they have no current state income tax.
Maine and Vermont spoke of secession during the bush years.
“Maine and Vermont spoke of secession during the bush years.”
There’s probably wackos in every state in the union speaking of secession. I think Texas is the perfect place for all of them to assemble. Good riddance!
They still do. The Vermont secessionist movement, at least, is still going strong.
Tell me, Eli, is every secessionist a wacko? Or evil, or just so plumb ignorant they have to let the government do their thinking for them?
Of course, the founding fathers of this country and the large minority seeking to break free of the English were all wackos.
Maine and Vermont have had secessionist sentiments among some people for at least three generations that I am aware of.
yeah, thats funny eli. “Wackos”. i bet you would agree with their reasons and sentiment. Vermont and Maine, i mean. I think it’d be kinda awesome if Texas seceded, regardless of their reason.
If Texas seceded it would quickly be over run by Mexico, and the crack Mexican Army, and returned to its rightful owner.
The crack Mexican Army is only exceeded in it’s tactical skills by the French Army. The Mexicans have not mastered the art of dropping and running. Instead they just surrender and switch sides. On second thought that probably makes them superior to the French.
Apparently travelah doesn’t know that the France has the sixth most powerful army in the world.
What’s even funnier though is that apparently travelah is completely oblivious to the fact that if it wasn’t for the French army, he would be saluting the Union Jack. It was a long time till we were able to return that favor.
The right-wing extremist obsession with hating all things French really is hysterically funny. Enjoy your freedom fries.
entoptee, you should stick to kooky mind pseudo-science. The French have been driven out of every endeavor for the past century. As for the entry into the Revolutionary War, it was consequential at Yorktown and nearly bankrupted them. They never became our primary partner. The French today have weapons but as with the armies of the past, they have no gumption and cannot be relied upon to stay the course on the field of battle. They fight foreign battles with mercenaries as they have no taste for fighting their own battles. Of course, you find their cowardice and leftist-anarchy attractive, I am sure.
In any event, I don’t think the Texans would be fighting the French or anybody else for that matter.
travelah, I don’t know if you are just slow or mentally deficient, but it it really is beyond idiotic of you to call my work kooky mind pseudo science just because you are too thick to understand it. It really is absolutely hilarious that you describe a world renowned academic journal full of many of the most famous scientists and philosopherson the planet, including Nobel Prize winners, Pulitzer Prize winners, and National Medal of Science winners, as comic book academia. Comic book academia would be vastly beyond your pay grade travelah. Barney the dinosaur is beyond your pay grade.
I already incontrovertibly proved for all to see that you have been lying your head off for the last year, and now you seem determined to prove that dishonesty is not your only shortcoming.
If my work in academia is so kooky and insignificant compared to yours, why don’t you stop being such an incredible coward and just come out and share your academic accomplishments with us. Come on travelah, tell us about the academic journals that you have published in. Show us all how much better you are than me, or stop talking crap about things you know absolutely nothing about and insulting people that I know and respect with your sanctimonious ignorance.
By the way, apparently you are the last person on Erth to here of the legendary fierceness of the French Foreign Legion. The next time that you actually use your mind before you speak will be the first.
Entoptee, aside from your expertise in kooky pseudo-science or at least you claim such, you don’t read well nor do you seem to know much about the French and their mercenaries. Perhaps you could share their great successes in the past century and how they led to France’s great victories in war since you are now a renowned warfare historian. More importantly, do you think you could hold them off in Candler if push came to shove?
Speaking of the French, (entoptee you can sit this one out because there is no pseudo science involved)in a hypothetical case of Texas and a couple other states seceding, would the French step in to help the status quo Obamunists or would they go for opportunity and side with Texas? I am guessing they would close their borders and sit it out waiting for French Canada to make it’s move.
Please travelah, enlighten me. Since all of those people with Nobel Prizes and advanced degrees from the top universities in the world seem like they are pretty smart to me, I must not have your expertise.
Everybody knows that only fundamentalist creationists like you can recognize real science. Scientists believe in silly things like evolution and dinosaurs.
You are just so smart the way you don’t think VS Ramachandran possibly the most renowned neuroscientist in the world, is a real scientist. I just love the way you call him a comic book academic and a pseudo scientist since he published a piece in the journal you keep disparaging.
So don’t be a chicken… tell us all about your miraculous academic accomplishments. Of course you wouldn’t be qualified to disparage my work and the work of my friends and colleagues unless you were far more accomplished. Since Ramachandran is considered to be one of the 100 most important thinkers in the world, you must be in the top 10, right?
It is actually hilarious that you keep calling the french cowards in the very same breath that you are chickening out. Your cowardice is legendary.
You asked me to prove that I had published in an academic journal. I didn’t want to make my name public here, but I did it for the pleasure of publicly humiliating you for your flat-out lies.
Your bible commands that you have to be willing to do the same that you asked of me so when are you going to stop being a chicken and stand up and and do the EXACT SAME thing that you asked of me.
You can keep calling me trailer trash and a kook and all your other crap, but that’s just hot air. I proved that you have been lying your head off for a year and now I’ve proven you are a coward too. I’m asking nothing of you that you didn’t ask of me you hypocrite.
Now here comes the “cluck-cluck-cluck-cluck-cluck”
travelah said: “Speaking of the French, (entoptee you can sit this one out because there is no pseudo science involved)in a hypothetical case of Texas and a couple other states seceding, would the French step in to help the status quo Obamunists or would they go for opportunity and side with Texas? I am guessing they would close their borders and sit it out waiting for French Canada to make it’s move.”
Oh my god, you are an even bigger dip than I thought.
For the sake of the moderator and the other readers, I’ll try to limit my responses to travelah to cluck-cluck-cluck unless he stands up and provides the same info he asked of me countless times. Until then, there really isn’t any reason to take his right-wing extremist evangelical blather the slightest bit seriously. Good luck be you travelah. It must really suck.
entoptee, I wouldn’t share such information with you. Now I might and have with others but not with you. :) You are a lunatic.
How did entoptee’s phobia regarding “fundamentalist creationists” (of which I am not one) come into a discussion about secession? Personally I don’t think there will be any secession so this is all pure speculation.
“cluck cluck cluck”
You had no problem asking that of me, and that makes you a hypocrite and a coward. In fact I don’t think I have met a bigger hypocrite or coward in my life. It is astonishing that ytou pushed me to give my personal info here so many times and berated me for being anonymous. You even cyber stalked me and tracked down my facebook and myspace profile, then got off on telling people my name and town of residence here, you lunatic.
If you were a Christian, you wouldn’t ask something of me that you weren’t willing to give yourself. I guess that makes you a CINO, as Chad would say.
You are a coward that talks a whole lot of crap about things you know nothing about while you hide behind the safety of your moniker. Now we know that lying may not be your worst quality after all. Cluck some more you hypocritical chicken…
“cluck-cluck-cluck.”
ummm, entop, it’s the internet.
Calling someone a Coward over the internet is kinda, well, cowardly.
And yes, I’m sure you’ll point out the irony of that statement for me.
Actually RU486, I think the word hypocrisy might more accurately describe your laughably asinine observation. Apparently even you can’t quite get past the flawed logic of your own ham-fisted attempt at a wise-crack. I’ve come to expect nothing less from you. And nothing more.
There is really only one way to settle this: Thunderdome!
Ooh! Ooh! Can I ride in on the zip-line?
Thunderdome against travelah? Does sound like a fun time. Of course, travelah is too much of a coward to take responsibility for his lies or come out from behind his moniker despite the outlandish hypocrisy of that after asking me countless times, so I wouldn’t hold your breath.
Now that this thread has inevitably devolved into name-calling, I would just like to say that I believe the subject of secession deserves more debate and discussion by the people of Asheville. I would very like to invite those who feel especially strongly on the subject, both for and against, to contact me, so that we might arrange a public forum on the matter.
Entop coats self with egg before rolling through chopped nuts. Glutinous mass delivers rollicking epithets and ethereal insults, slimes all with residue of uncertain provenance. More next week.
Really Mr Yuck? That’s your best stab at wit? I’m usually not one to let such obnoxious crap talking go unchallenged, but honestly, you have just made it too easy and I almost feel sorry for you. For what it’s worth, your food metaphors could definitely use some work. Who knows, with a little more time in the kitchen your moniker and icon may one day be a bit less apt.
I stand by my post.
Ha … …. But this is a fair observation …. ANYBODY who steps up to entoptee’s foolishness is going to face a vitriolic attack. That is just the nature of the beast.
Now Johnny, what would a public forum discuss?
Well, just off the top of my head:
What is the proper reaction from us (the people of WNC) if a state declares secession?
Is secession acceptable/feasible/possible in this day and age, and if so, under what circumstances?
Despite what many people on either side of this issue may think, including myself, these issues have not been settled. And given that they are fairly important questions about this country, regardless of the likelihood of secession, I think they should be settled.
travelah said: “cluck-cluck-cluck-cluck-cluck” along with a hilariously hypocritical dose of projection for good measure.
Johnny, perhaps if you took the topic to the Forum, the kook factor would diminish and it could be discussed (unless the mayor objects)