The Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office arrested activists Mark and Deborah Kuhn in West Asheville Wednesday morning after a complaint that the couple was desecrating an American flag. They say a deputy invaded their home and used excessive force. [The photo at right, taken by a neighbor, shows Mark on the ground, with Deborah standing by, during the arrest.]
The flag was hung upside down as an act of protest and had several statements pinned to it, including a picture of President Bush with the words “Out Now” upon it and one explaining the meaning of the upside down flag, a sign of distress.
The Kuhns, along with several neighbors and witnesses, assert that a sheriff’s deputy violently invaded their home at 68 Brevard Road. The sheriff’s office claims that the couple assaulted deputy Brian Scarborough and resisted arrest.
According to the report from the sheriff’s office, Scarborough arrived at the home at 8:45 a.m. in response to a complaint about the desecration of a flag.
Lt. Randy Sorrell says that while the address was in the city of Asheville, “when we receive a complaint that the law is being broken, we have to respond.”
Under a rarely enforced state statute, it is a misdemeanor to desecrate or trample a U.S. or North Carolina flag. The Kuhns said the flag was taken as evidence, though the sheriff’s department has no record of it.
After knocking on the door, the couple answered it and, after being shown the statute, said they complied and took the flag down. Scarborough then asked for their identification.
“The flag covered our whole front porch; he comes up with this printout about the law and tells us that we can’t attach things to the flag, that we’re desecrating it,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We tell him we’re not meaning to desecrate it — all we had was a picture of [President] Bush with ‘out now’ on it and a note saying this was not a sign of distress or disrespect. We did this because the country is in distress and we don’t know what to do.”
Then, she said, Scarborough “started talking arrest, so we took the flag down. He kept wanting to see our ID. We refused. We said, ‘Why should we show you our ID — are you arresting us?’; so we walked back into the house and closed the door.”
There, the accounts diverge. According to Deborah Kuhn, Scarborough “tried to force the door, but we got it closed and locked it with the deadbolt. He then kicked it, punched the glass out, unlocked our door and came after us.”
The sheriff’s office report states that “the man [Mark Kuhn] refused to identify himself and slammed the door on the officer’s hand, breaking the glass pane out of the door and cutting the officer’s hand.”
However, the Kuhns’ account is backed up by Jimmy Stevenson, who was working with Ace Hardwood Floors nearby and asserts that he saw Scarborough break down the door.
“I saw that one cop [Scarborough] pull up and I saw those people come out on the porch and start talking to him,” Stevenson said. “They took their flag down, asked the officer to leave and closed the door. Then he started kicking the door, he kicked it about five or six good times, then he laid right into it. After he got done kicking it, he broke the window out – I saw him hit the window.”
Deborah Kuhn says that Scarborough then “pursued my husband into the kitchen, they were scuffling, [and] Mark was trying to get away from him. He pulls out his billy club and I call 911 and say that an officer has broken into our house and is assaulting us.”
Scarborough sustained a cut to his arm when the window broke and Mark Kuhn had several cuts on his face from the scuffle with Scarborough.
“I was just trying to defend myself and back away from him,” Kuhn said. “They never, ever told us why we were being arrested until we were in jail.”
Deborah Kuhn asserted that no warrant was displayed or permission asked to enter the house. After calling 911, she says, she ran outside and began screaming for help.
Sam York, who lives nearby the couple, was awakened by the struggle, as the Kuhns and Scarborough both came out into the yard. “I woke up to Debbie screaming,” he said. “Mark and Debbie were saying ‘you assaulted us’ and the officer [Scarborough], was demanding their identification. Then another officer threatened them with a taser. He told Debbie to back away or he’d taser her and demanded that Mark get on the ground.”
Sorrell confirms this part of the account: “When they were outside, one of the other officers produced a taser and he [Mark Kuhn] surrendered and submitted.”
Deborah Kuhn’s screams also drew the attention of Shawn Brady and several of his roommates, who live next door to the couple. “I run outside and ask them what’s going on and there’s cops chasing Mark around his car,” Brady said. “They threaten to taser him and demand that he get on the ground. He gets on the ground and we ask them what they’re being charged with. They tell us it’s none of our concern. I tell them they’re our neighbors and it is our concern.”
Neal Wilson, who lives with Brady, also saw the deputy produce the taser, he says. After repeated questions, Brady and roommate Tony Plichta said that the deputies replied that “they didn’t know yet” what the couple would be charged with.
“This is an outrage,” Brady said. “The 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments were clearly broken today.”
Plichta expressed similar anger. “They actually wanted to know why we cared — these are our neighbors,” he said.
Following the arrest, the Kuhns were taken to the Buncombe County Detention Facility, where they were charged with two counts of assaulting a government official, and one count each of resisting arrest and desecrating an American flag. Their son posted their bail shortly afterwards.
This was not the first time that the flag had attracted attention. On July 18, with just the upside-down flag hanging, an Asheville police officer stopped by to inquire about the situation.
“He was very polite and just said that because it was a sign of distress, he wanted to make sure everything was OK,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We said we had it out as a show of desperation — our country is in distress and we just don’t know what to do. We asked if we had violated any ordinance. He said, ‘No, you have every right.’”
After that, Deborah Kuhn said that she posted up the picture of Bush and the explanation of their reasons for displaying the flag in protest.
A couple of days later, Mark Kuhn said that a man in military fatigues came to their door, and was driving a car with a federal license plate. “He stood here telling me that I needed to take the flag down or fly it right,” he said.
Kuhn adds that he assumed the man was with the National Guard, due to the nearby armory.
Wilson, Plichta and Brady said that after the man stopped by, they also saw him drive by several times during the following days, and one night, witnessed several other men in fatigues taking pictures of the flag.
Furthermore, Wilson said that as the Kuhns were being arrested and taken off, he saw a man in fatigues drive by and shout “Go to jail, baby!”
After his experience, Mark Kuhn said he is convinced this is not an isolated occurrence. “If Americans don’t wake up to the martial state we’re in, the cops, the police, the sheriffs, the state police will all come to our door and take us away if we allow this to happen – it’s time for America to wake up.”
— David Forbes, staff writer
If you replace the words “Buncombe County Sheriff’s Department” with “gang of armed thugs” this story makes a lot more sense. I am absolutely disgusted by this and I hope that members of the Sheriff’s Dept. who are ashamed by this behavior come forward and help rid our home of these miscreants. It is almost as if Bobby “we buried the guns” Medford was still running things.
Since moving to Asheville two years ago this act of police brutality and stifling of our most fundamental rights is without a doubt the most stunning news story I’ve heard yet. Makes me wonder about this “liberal haven” we supposedly live in. The officers involved should be suspended without pay pending investigation. But in the mean time, we ought to be burning flags in our front yards…They can’t beat us all. We’re seventy percent of the country.
Don’t forget that you can DIGG and del.icio.us this story by clicking on the icons on the “Comments” bar directly below the article.
I send out a call to all Asheville residents to peaceably petition this action of injustice and show their outrage to this infringement of rights by hanging their own flags upside down in their yards, balconys, porches or fences!
We must stand collectively – for we must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately!
(A repost…from AC-T 7-26-07)
by Twain
I watched WLOS News 13 Wednesday at 11PM. The lead story about the upside down flag was reported in such a way as to indicate that a National Guard soldier was offended…and called ‘a friend’ who was a Buncombe County Deputy. The news story said the Deputy then went to the Kuhn’s home. As I watched the news…my first reaction was outrage at a rogue officer and I felt certain that a deputy WOULD NOT act alone…without the authority of a senior officer or Sheriff Duncan.
Now…having read the updated Citizen- Times story…and the many comments of my fellow viewers and readers…I have no idea what transpired. So…answers are needed…and this situation DEMANDS them.
Questions:
Did the Deputy act alone? Is there a record of a dispatch call to send HIM specifically? Did a senior Deputy in the BCSD authorize the action?
Did APD report the previous incident about a ‘distress signal?’ Is there an official record of the police visit? Did Chief Hogan’s senior staff review the report?
The U.S. Constitution is more sacred than the U.S. Flag and the most sacred amendment to our constitution is the FIRST.
Our FREEDOM OF SPEECH is everything. If we lose our right to protest…if we lose the right to say what is on our minds…if we lose the right to be free from our own government’s harassment…we have lost what millions have fought and died for.
Since the horrific tragedies of September 11, 2001 we have seen a steady erosion of our freedoms. The Government has justified the illegal abrogation of the U.S Constitution and the denial of Habeus Corpus rights in the name of ‘homeland security’.
That sacred document that our ancestors fought and died for…those freedoms and rights that have been abridged in our name by Washington politicians who ignore the very document they claim to be defending…the very essence of the reason that The United States of America has long been looked to as a ‘Shining Beacon of Hope’ throughout the world…is being threatened by those who claim to be protecting us.
At what cost?
The Asheville flag case is not a question of RIGHT and LEFT…it is a case of RIGHT and WRONG. If our Founding Fathers were alive today…I believe they would side with those who value FREEDOM above all else.
Our police officers and deputies do difficult and dangerous work. The facts may prove that the deputy in this case acted properly. However…as the story has been thus far reported…my best guess is that emotions became heated…and the situation was poorly handled.
I hope we can all agree that the right to protest our government’s actions…regardless of one’s political philosophy… and the right to be civilly disobedient…regardless of what is being protested…is as precious as life itself.
Mark Kuhn got just what he deserved!!!
You don’t know him like I do.
I’m glad he left the USA.
He doesn’t belong here
I told him one of these days
KARMA. He always thought he was above the law!
From beating me to terrorizing my children.
You got KARMA!!! At last!
For all who wish to get involed email flagcriminal@yahoo.com …. Ask to be part of this movement and they will reply back with instructions.
This is an Asheville movement that maybe become national.
Peace is the Answer.
JBo, great idea. On Brevard Rd we have already planned to start our protest on Saturday…upside-down flags up and down the road. It would be great for others to do the same.
I’ll be there for it.
Later that night….
A P.S. from the northern mountains:
We should all thank our lucky stars…and stripes…that now….after more than 550 posts…the supreme value and importance of the FIRST AMENDMENT has been proven by voices on all sides of this contentious subject.
For those of you who have railed against those who have spoken with passion in support of the right to civil disobedience…just imagine a country where your point of view is silenced by governmental fiat.
Never in MY country…and not in MY name.
FREE SPEECH…NOW AND FOREVER.
Hopefully all of you Mountain Express Readers have learned a valuable lesson about listening to the police and doing what you are supposed to do… then fight it in court. There is no reason to not accept a citation and then go to court or the civil process section and see it weighed and measured. The will of the people made the law and we must all respect authority. I was born and raised here and all of ridiculous liberals have made it a royal mess. Much like the mess you came from-which is why you left there. The National Guard Armory made the initial complaint and the Sheriff’s Department followed up. We complained beliving in respecting the flag. Those of you who have never served in the military or who’s life has had no real signifigance will never know that importance. Have some spine. There is no police state, just a lot of tired republicans and citizens who are frustrated with all of you medicaid or trust-fund whiners who will never know sacrifice. See you on the streets liberal… You know what we look like. Face it.
Twain:
Here! Here!
I say Bravo to the Kuhn’s for trying to stand up for their rights in the face of a charged up policeman. And for the commenters who are bold enough to speak out for what they think is right.
Now, let’s get some answers.
To Eric: Despite how you may feel about the way one treats the flag there is a clear body of law regarding the criminality of such acts. In Texas v. Johnson and US v. Eichman the Supreme Court have declared that even to the point of burning the flag that “desecration” is protected speech so the law is unenforcible. This case doesn’t even seem to meet the requirements of the “incidental” limitations that might make the law enforcible. As for just accepting the citation, perhaps, but I would argue that if the witnesses are correct then the family was right to fear the actions of the officer and tried to lock themselves in their home. If so, the officers actions could be seen as excessive and a sign of the emotional response to the situation and not the sign of a professional law enforcement officer. As for “the will of the people making the law” it is true most laws are majority rules. However, the founders were smart enough to protect minority views and so the laws are not entirely decided by the people’s will. Whether you respect the flag is not justification to force others to respect it in your way. I view protest, including using the flag as a great honor to those who served under it, as they fought to protect a vital and living freedom not a freedom to be protected and never used.
No matter how many times you people want to beat this dead horse …he still aint gonna run…
The Deputy stopped at their home to discuss the situation with the flag.
They complied by taking it down.
The Deputy then asked for ID.
The couple DID NOT CO-OPERATE …
THEY FLED INTO THE HOME AND LOCKED THE DOOR.
I do not care of the Deputy pulled the door off the hinges with his car…..those 2 people IGNORED the Deputy and HIS REQUEST for ID.
The ACLU WILL NOT TAKE THIS CASE …..NOTHING WAS VIOLATED.
THESE PEOPLE NEED TO MOVE TO SAN FRANCISCO IF THEY WANT TO ACT LIKE THIS….
END OF STORY…
And for all you people that think this Deputy should be fired…..think again….
Once we get the United States Military involved……the tide will turn away from this couple and it will be directed to giving this Deputy a commendation for a JOB WELL DONE.
If they would like to try and pursue this in criminal or civil court…..it would be a rediculous waste of time and money.
This lawsuit is destined for the DUSTBIN AB INITIO
I was publishing under BuncCyBapt and cited plenty of caselaw which makes flag desecration perfectly legal in the USA. Therefore, the arrest based on a void NC law was illegal. The cop is a rogue, plain and simple, and BCSD has its own attorney to advise it on such questions. Breaking and entering the home of the Kuhns was illegal.
Then my messages started to be censored and last night, all the messages of everyone — at least on my screen — were cluttered with clusters of four asterisks surrounding every word, making the words almost impossible to read. I reckon it’s Topix’s, Al Neuharth’s, and Gannett’s method of censorship. Either that or I need to register or there’s a glitch.
I believe the participants in that flawed and ambivalent forum learned that the First Amendment is the shining beacon of liberty no one, particularly not our government, should desecrate, not a meaningless graven image like a silly flag corrupted by theocratic BS we were taught as children to brainlessly revere and bow down to. My Constitution and Bill of Rights stand for this republic, not a flag. The Third Reich was into flags, but no guaranteed personal liberties. Hitler suspended the German Constitution after the fire at the Reichstag, an event Bush fantasizes about and salivates over, you can be sure.
My compliments to the Kuhns and to their bravery for standing up to the growing fascism in this endangered republic.
Davido, the deputy requested their ID, they do NOT have to comply with that request. If you notice, the Kuhns even asked if they were being arrested and the deputy said no. You even said it in your post “asked for ID” and “his REQUEST for ID.” You do not have to provide ID to an officer unless you are being seized or arrested. The officer has to make it clear that he is seizing or arresting you, it seems clear to me that he was doing neither.
If you want to bend over and submit to government thugs, be my guest. But don’t project your lack of backbone onto the rest of us.
Asheville has the attention of much of the world.
Bele Chere will draw 350,000 or more…yet the more important news from Asheville is about the very essence of why we are who we are…as a people …and as a country.
The U.S. Constitution and the First Amendment are our lifeline to FREEDOM. Everyone benefits from the protection our laws provide.
I would hope that…as we celebrate our festival…with tens of thousands of guests in our mountains…and hundreds of thousands following the story of a war protest in our fair city…we all take a collective deep breath and thank our lucky stars…and stripes… that: THE RULE OF LAW AND THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH protects each of us…and all of us.
When you see your friends and neighbors displaying an upside down flag today and tomorrow and next week…or when you see a relative or descendant of a proud veteran of our armed services flying our flag proudly ‘right side up’…remember…it is the same FIRST AMENDMENT that protects all of us…and our right to speak our minds and protest or support whatever we choose…and live safe and secure inside our homes…protected from governmental excesses along with ‘all enemies…foreign and domestic.’
It comes down to one question….do you believe in The Golden Rule?
DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU.
We are all one…and our FREEDOM is NOT negotiable.
Respect the rights of all to voice their minds and be glad you live in the USA.
Happy Bele Chere 2007.
Let me preface this by saying that I think that the Kuhns were wronged by this, and that I am completely on their side.
With that being said, I don’t think that this was an act of fascism so much as it was an act of an overzealous sheriff. This guy was probably thinking less about suppressing the right to free speech and more about stopping someone who didn’t agree with him. Now this doesn’t make his alleged actions excusable, but I think that is a better way to think of what he did.
Deputy Scarborough is a criminal who committed several crimes and several torts. I hope he’s incarcerated, terminated, and goes bankrupt from the lawsuits to follow.
I’d also like to say that the shame of Scarborough should not be transmuted onto the city of Asheville nor the Ashevill police dept.
This is 1 bad apple.
Wow, hopefully this isn’t representative of law enforcement in North Carolina. I’ve visited that state a dozen times and love it there. This man’s Constitutional and Civil rights were CLEARLY violated. That sheriff’s deputy should not only be fired, he should go to prison.
This coming from the south, where the single greatest affront to american national unity, the flag of the confederacy, is flown with pride.
I’d rather take an upside down stars and stripes over the confederate flag anyway.
Amazing, they support and have the right to fly the symbol of the greatest threat and act of treason this country has ever known–Which in my book is the greatest desecration of what OUR flag stands for–but you can’t turn a US flag upside down in protest.
Makes about as much sense as can be expected from anyone or anything south of the Mason Dixon.
“YOU LOST, GET OVER IT.”
If they want to honor the flag, make all flag protest legal or at least suppress the rebel flag.
You can only desecrate something if it’s sacred. I don’t know about the deputy’s religion, but in my religion flags belong to Caesar, not God, and in the US Constitution, the government agrees not to establish any religion, so the flag isn’t sacred to them either.
Also in the US, police can’t demand ID unless you’re doing some regulated activity like driving, and any police officer who’s had any training about legal arrest procedures knows that. The Supreme Court was real clear about that in a case involving walking around while black, and the black lawyer who’d been harassed was quite successful in suing the cops. But even if this deputy wasn’t paying attention in cop school, or was hoping he could get away with exceeding his authority, anybody with half a clue should have been able to figure out that he shouldn’t go kicking somebody’s door down and attacking them just because they’re not cooperating. And anybody who loses his temper enough to not keep track of the half a clue he’s got has no business working for a Public Safety organization.
I’ve served and I’ve been on two combat rotations… not that that specifically gives me more or less rights than any other citizen. Do not use my name when justifying abhorrent conduct by these civil servants. Police officers and sherrif’s deputies are all human beings and they too are capable of making mistakes. A badge doesn’t give them the right to anything beyond what the law allows. What may seem a reasonable request for ID is not supported by the law. We do not live in a country that requires that we comply with whatever request officers make. They must have a legal foundation. If the facts, as portrayed by this article, turn out to be true, the investigation should conclude that jail time is appropriate for these offending officers. I’m a Republican and I disagree with their message, but the fundamental rights that I shed blood, sweat, and tears for do not change with political affiliation or message voiced. I probably would have non-violently refused to cooperate and forced them to resort to further violence. I think that (despite my hatred for them) the ACLU will take the case (or some other civil rights law organization), and they should. The sherrif’s department should take a long hard look at how they handle situations like this and their obviously negligent training regime that produced these officers.
To all the officers sacrificing their time and sometimes lives in an effort to keep us safe locally and to all the men and women who sacrifice to keep us safe globally – keep up the good work and keep your head down. You are doing the harder right. Don’t let the weakness of a few, who take the easier wrong, detract from your efforts. I appreciate the gift of your service.
Go get them hippies! I’ve seen tons of episodes of COPS and the culprits never admit to any wrongdoing. Also if COPS are arresting someone, they will always ask their friends to leave or go back in their houses.
Go to link below to see someone really defiling the American flag.
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagbush.htm
You know, this is one of the more frustrating comment threads I’ve ever seen. I think that both sides are probably covering their rears, and that while there was misconduct on the deputy’s side, that there was also probably more to the actions by the protester than we are seeing.
Also, we have some military-like guys coming on and playing soldier, who obviously don’t understand at all what they’re “fighting” for (hint: It’s for the right of these people to do *exactly what they did*) and wave the “service to their country” around like some kind of token that suddenly makes their views right and proper.
What probably happened was this: The deputy got overzealous and was going to arrest them, but the door got slammed in his face before he did, so he yells “you’re under arrest” and forces his way in. Of course, after he does that, then anything they do past that is resisting arrest, regardless of whether he’s right or not.
The military guys commenting here obviously don’t understand what or why what they did is wrong – although I wouldn’t expect any more than that – and the people who say the policeman was “rogue” and acting without justification probably don’t know the whole story either and are reacting in a kneejerk manner.
Makes me glad I live in California and not there.
Davido, you should become a police officer. you’re just the kinda guy they’re looking for.
Go Mark, go Mark, go, go, go Mark! Rock on!
I hope he sues.
http://www.buncombecounty.org/governing/depts/Sheriff/
Van Duncan
Sheriff
(828) 250-4503
Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office
202 Haywood St.
Asheville, North Carolina 28801
I can’t believe anyone on here is defending those cops. most cops are arrogant a’holes who believe the laws apply to everyone but them. The offending officer should be fired and charges should be filed against him for breaking and entering, vandalism, false imprisonment, assault with a deadly weapon, and falsifying a police report among other things. But IA will probably clear him of any wrong doing because if your not with Bush and his Nazi regime you are against him. Remember that folks. He said it himself.
Eric: why are you so hateful to your fellow man?
Don’t you realize that at least a third to half of the population are not likely to share of all of your views about politics? Is that a reason for you to hate a third or half of all Americans? Your message comes across to me sounding like you are asking to have a physical fight in the streets with people. Why do you want to physically fight with so many fellow Americans? Why are you so hateful?
Doesn’t it make more sense to talk about these political disagreements than to actually physically attack people over these things?
Those of you who think you don’t have to provide an officer with ID upon request are dead wrong. Filing to do so is grounds for arrest.
See Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada. In which a Federal court held that under the rubric of Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), the minimal intrusion on a suspect’s privacy and the legitimate need of law enforcement officers to quickly dispel suspicion that an individual is engaged in criminal activity justified asking a suspect to identify himself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada
By running into the house, slamming the door on the officer’s hand they guaranteed arrest. They were arrested for resisting arrest and assaulting an officer. Those charges will stick and the ACLU won’t touch it unless they get charged with desecrating a flag – which they weren’t.
When will people learn?
Looks like the couple were right.
Billy Jack said, “When the Law breaks the law then there is no law.”
If this story is correct, we have multiple witnesses that corroborate the homeowners’ stories.
That means we have a couple of cops forcibly entering someones home without a warrant or probable cause – breaking and entering at the least, perhaps even a home invasion.
Then they assault the homeowner, another crime. Then, to top it all off, they file false reports in an attempt to frame the victims for various felonies.
Nice bunch of fascist thugs you’ve got there in North Carolina. Sadly, they’ll probably get off with a slap on the wrist, and when the residents sue, everyone in town will complain about the ACLU being anti-cop.
Let a cop try and pull something like this at my home in Alaska and he’d have kicked the door in to a face full of shotgun. Cops are not above the law, and i would just as soon shoot one in the face for invading my home with no warrent, just as fast as i would if he were a some crackhead trying to rob me.
I am a conservative.
I support the police.
I believe you should not treat the flag with disrespect.
I was in the military.
Once the officer told these people they had to take the flag down, he had no reason to continue bothering them. He stopped being a police officer, and became a bully.
Is hanging the flag upside down, really disrespect? I voted for the man who sent us to this war, twice. I still support people right to free speech, even when they disagree with me.
As someone who is in the military and has been for 17 years and as I son-in-law of a retired police officer it seriously disturbs me and angers me when I read stories like this and then read comments from people trying to defend what this officer did. There is NO defense for how this deputy acted. As Americans we have a right to express ourselves and the Supreme Court has upheld that desecrating the flag is one of those rights. I took an oath to “Support and defend the Constitution of the United States against ALL enemy’s both foreign and domestic.” it is an oath that I am very proud of and it is an oath that I take very seriously. As the old saying goes “I may disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
Now that I’ve gotten that out of my system I’m going to move along now but there is one more thing that I want to address.
Davido you said “Once we get the United States Military involved……” Well I am involved and I think that I’ve made my feeling on this perfectly clear. Unless you mean get them involved in kicking in doors then you may want to go read up on posse comitatus oh and that showing an officer your ID thing. This isn’t Soviet Russia or East Germany you don’t have to show your ID, oh and those were SOCIALIST countries, you know left wing, liberals, oh who am I kidding you’d never get it….
Mike:
You have so many mistakes in your post I am at a loss where to start. How about this: Hiibel did not stand for the proposition that failing to provide an ID card upon request is grounds for arrest. The opinion stated that “stop-and-identify” laws are not per se unconstitutional. The law in the Hiibel case makes no mention of presenting your “papers” upon request, merely identifying yourself by name is sufficient.
BTW, North Carolina does not have one of these laws; therefore, you are not required to identify yourself upon request in N.C.
One would think that a person like yourself, having some minimal level of intelligence that allows you to link a Wikipedia page, would have the additional brainpower to actually read it prior to posting the link.
Stop playing lawyer on the Internet. You fail.
Mike 6:09 PM,
I’m not going to take the time to read that case, but given that you say it interprets the Terry v. Ohio rule, you’re probably wrong about its application to this situation.
Under Terry, a cop can make a “Terry stop” if there is a reasonable suspicion of an illegal activity. In this case, from the facts that we have, it appears there is no way that the officer could establish that predicate requirement. The SCOTUS precedent on flag desecration is crystal clear and as such any local ordinance would be totally unenforceable. The cop had to have known that, and frankly, its irrelevant if it didn’t. They were under no obligation to turn over that ID. I hope the ACLU does get involved, at the very least to get the cop fired.
The problem for them, however, is that its going to be very hard for the Kuhn’s to recover in a civil action for two reasons. First, the officer himself probably doesn’t have many assets which would be seized post-judgment, which effectively makes him judgment proof. Secondly, they won’t be able to recover under a 43 USC 1983 action unless there is some sort of policy of the department that he was following (which may or may not be the case here).
Hanging the flag upside down was very disrespectful of their fellow citizens and all those in uniform. Personally, I find that act extremely distasteful.
Having said that, once the cop started breaking down the door, and yes, it’s plain that’s what happened from the several witnesses that saw it, the police themselves disgraced their badge.
Which is worse?
I would be upset if the couple go to jail for something they did that was stupid – like hanging a flag upside down. But you know, you should get what is coming to you if you break into someones home. Especially a law enforcement officer. The policeman was lucky and was not injured. Hopefully he will not only get fired from his job, he will do some time in jail.
The law is there to protect everyone – even losers that hang the greatest flag in the world upside down.
City of Asheville: Mayor
70 Court Plz
Asheville, NC 28801
(828) 259-5600
ashevillenc.gov
Van Duncan
Sheriff
(828) 250-4503
Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office
202 Haywood St.
Asheville, North Carolina 28801
http://www.buncombecounty.org/governing/depts/Sheriff/
In revolutionary times [ < --- 1st hint ], this was a signal of distress. And leave that to be lost on your average middle brow cop [give it a name man, i know that is flamebait!]. metaphorically speaking, it's pretty deep. A, these are the times, for what you might ask ? Revolution and secondly, relative to the meaning of flying a flag upside down, we are indeed "...in trouble". I don't support any kind of desecration of our FLAG but hanging it upside down, is not per se, "desecration". Heck I've been thinking of getting "Don't tread in me" in either a t-shirt form or poster form, banner perhaps, etc. And this is not some ephemeral pursuit, we are in trouble but we can help ourselves. I have no problem with this and frankly, the cops can't be blamed entirely, I would imagine on a community level, this "display" to be a problem. But not to me personally. be well.
North Carolina has been a police state for as long as I remember.That is the main reason I left there.I have been stopped going to work by non government auditors asking questions as to where I was coming from and going to when i replied none of your business i was promptly detained by a NC State trooper that was assigned to assist.It was the only way to and from work and i was stopped everyday for 2 weeks.And when visiting my mom who stayed there I saw it still was happening.THE people of NC are used to it so it doesn’t seem abnormal.Unfortunately now the whole country is the same.I am leaving until better times
To those who claim the couple did not have to identify themselves because the ordinance is unconstitutional, you’re wrong. According to the Asheville Citizen-Times article on this same event, the officer asked for identification because he needed it to write a citation. The ordinance is still on the books as state law. Police officers do not make or interpret the law, certainly not on the front porch. They merely enforce the law as written and leave it to a judge to decide the rest.
If you think they were under no obligation to identify themselves to the officer, try not identifying yourself the next time a cop wants to give you a ticket. You’ll find yourself in jail pretty quick. These people will have the desecration charge dropped and be convicted of assault and resisting arrest. And they are guilty of both.
They should have simply complied, taken the ticket and gone to court on the desecration charge and had it and the law itself tossed. Instead they resisted and actually did break the law.
Do you really want policemen deciding which laws are constitutional?
Dugg!
I’m going to write the FBI and the US District Attorney and ask them to investigate this incident.
Another Thug With a Badge:
http://timpeck.blogspot.com/2007/07/another-thug-with-badge.html
Sounds like this cop was acting on his own personal agenda. So… what party will he be running under in the next city council election?
I submitted this link to a news aggregator Fark.com, hoping to attract more attention to this travesty. Looks like it worked.
My apologies to the MXpress server.
This post is in response to those who served in the military and defend the actions of the police in this instance. I served and I am now an attorney. I understand the pride in our country and the freedom for which it stands. I understand that the flag has more meaning to us than many civilians will understand. I understand that you find this form of protest to be distasteful. I am deeply troubled by the direction in which this administration has taken this country but I still shake my head at those who protest in this fashion. It would not be my choice but I would happily lay down my life to protect their right to offend me and still be free from police invasion of their home. I say this assuming that the facts are true as described. PLEASE remember that the sacred freedoms you defend include the freedom to protest and even the freedom to desecrate the flag. PLEASE remember that you swore an oath to the Constitution of the United States, not the President or the flag. American blood has never been spilled to protect the piece of fabric. It was always spilled to protect the freedom represented by the flag. Countries like China, Iraq, Nazi Germany and the former U.S.S.R. had laws against flag desecration and protest against the government. Do we really want to be counted among those nations. That is what you advocate when you cheer these sorts of laws and cheer the police for enforcing them with such blind zeal. Take a moment and think about the freedom to speak your mind that you enjoy and remember that the price you pay for that is having to tolerate the offensive statements of those you despise. We served, fought and spilled blood to protect exactly this freedom. Be offended if you like but I think of it as a show of gratitude for my service.
BETTER GET IN LINE OR GET LOCKED AWAY!!!!
Oh the land of the free…
And the home of the brave.
America truly must wake up.
The Freedom of speech is the pride of the land.
And this blatant rape on said right must be punished. However we ALL know that the policeman will get away, and all his working partners will back him up and protect him.
Is this what you want? The Police abusing the law, raping the freedom of speech and getting away with it?
Act now!
While the American flag might represent some of the worst things in the world,
everyone still have their right to present it as they please.
Laws are there to protect the people.
And I can’t imagine someone getting hurt by it, it’s not a taser you know..
Act now!
http://www.h8torade.com
Civil disobedience is still disobedience.
Suck it, liberal fruitcakes.
If I see someone flying the American flag upside down, I get very offended
What about my rights?
Mike referenced Terry stops and the Hiibel case as cases that give supposed justification for the police to request identification and the person question to be required to answer. This is an incorrect citation of case law. First of all, the Hiibel case upheld Nevada’s right to have a stop and identify law upon reasonable suspicion of a crime. There is no federal stop and identify law, it is something that goes state by state. North Carolina is one of the many states that does NOT have a stop and identify law. So, Terry stops are allowed, but the police in North Carolina may only request, and may not demand identification during a Terry stop.
Secondly, Hiibel was standing outside his truck, on a public road when he was questioned. That made it a Terry stop, as any freshman criminal justice major can tell you. The same student will also tell you that Terry stops have nothing whatsoever to do with police coming onto your own private property, nor do they have anything to do with police breaking down your door without a warrant and violently assaulting you in the privacy of your home, which, according to multiple witnesses, is what happened here.
The officer’s actions from beginning to start were not only unjustified under federal and North Carolina state law, they were criminal assaults against innocent parties.
Another point here is that Mr. Kuhn did not desecrate the flag, nor did he disrespect it. He did not burn the flag, he did not dirty it, tear it, bury it, spit on it, wear it as a diaper, or do any of the other myriad things which have ever been considered to be desecration. He merely hung it upside down and temporarily attached a statement and a picture of the President to it. That is a political statement, not a desecration.
Texas v. Johnson 1989 US Supreme Court decision upholds the right to burn or deface the flag as expressive speech protected by the First Amendment.
To the previous Mike:
Unless a police officer gives you a direct order, you do not have to comply with it.
If he asks “Can I see some ID?” you can very well say no and begin to walk away. If he tells you to give him your ID, you have to comply.
Good for the cops. Maybe will open the eyes of the rest of the low rent assholes who burn flags and trashes them. People doing wrong today gets people behind them because they have rights. I have rights to such as having served my country, saw the flags represent the highest of honor on my friends coffin. When I see a flag I should have the right to see and remember it as honor not signs , notes , or burning flags. I dont care if they violated a law they, violated honor and freedom. IF YOU DONY like it I*ll bet you dont vote. If you dont like the way it goes dont be displaying stuff like that to draw attention. They got what the deserved. Pack you shit and move out of the country if you think its that bad.
Mike 8:55,
You ask the question “do [I] really want policemen deciding which laws are constitutional?” No, I don’t. But that is NOT the case here. If you had bothered to read several of the comments preceding yours, you would have read that the police officer would not be doing that. The flag burning/flag desecration question has been answered TWICE by the United States Supreme Court, first in Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989) and later reaffirmed, even more broadly, in US v. Eichmann, 496 U.S. 310.
Thus, the ordinance in question is per se unconstitutional (and the Kuhn’s actions in displaying the flag perfectly legal). It does not matter that it remains on the books. I would imagine, and certainly hope, that basic consitutional rights are taught on the first day at the police academy. But regardless, there was not any reasonable suspicion of criminal activity and thus the officer’s “Terry stop” was illegal. As per the case law, and the case you cited in your previous comment, the police are only allowed to ask for identification if they have the reasonable suspicion that would allow a “Terry stop.” Furthermore, as another commenter noted, North Carolina does not have a “stop and identify” law, and thus the officer could not claim that that he was acting pursuant to a statutorily granted authority.
This isn’t ‘normal’.
Its not even *close* to ‘normal’.
I’m afraid of any country & the Peoples that would even ponder the ‘normalcy’ of this event.
=====
“When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.”
=====
Spread Love…
… but wear the Glove!
BlueBerry Pick’n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
“Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced”
what a bunch of hillbillies down there in never never land. that kind of redneck deliverance shit is exactly why I live in big cities.
It’s disgraceful that members of the National Guard, sworn to protect freedom, could act in a manner so antithetical to the 1st Amendment. Mark Radford and his flunkies should be ashamed of themselves as soldiers and as Americans.
Lets see… first they posted a fake distress signal. Second, they violated a state statute (most likely knowingly and purposefully). Then they refused to identify themselves (a violation of the law in every state and territory of the United States). Looks to me like they were trying to provoke, and they got what they were asking for.
What ever happened to complying with the orders of a police officer? You don’t walk away from the police when they are talking to you, especially when they are responding to a complain about YOU. You don’t refuse to show them your ID and you have no right to “self defense” if you are being forcibly detained! Just because you ducked inside your house doesn’t mean you are suddenly “immune” or have the “right” to not be confronted by the police. The police had every power to surround the house with weapons drawn and fire tear gas inside.
I dunno, it sounds like from the story you were funding al queda and this officer stopped the whole thing.
I don’t think cops get away with this shit in 3rd world countries, how can they get away with it here?
They could have always done worse, as Bush basically made protesting the war against the law.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html
Don’t like it, or think that Bush has once again ignored your bill of rights? Talk to your representatives today and express your opinion to them.
Cops murder innocent people here in Portland, Oregon. They shoot them or beat them to death. And they walk free without so much as a wrist slap. At least these two were not killed by the cowardly cops.
Robert… Quite frankly, I personally find the killing and looting of my fellow human beings in Iraq “distasteful”. And as far as the flag goes, given what it seemingly represents in the year 2007, they should have burned it.
The flag has been desecrated all right, but not by the man who used it to express his protest. Those two police officers have disgraced the flag, by protecting the symbol while ignoring the freedom it stands for.
The man they attacked should sue, and settle for nothing less than both of these idiots losing their jobs.
-jcr
Why does the officer need ID when the “offenders” are presumably identifiable by their names on their mailbox? Surely the officer didn’t need their ID to write a citation, he had other ways to obtain their names and address. Also, these officers went there seeking a confrontation, not a conversation. Police are being trained to “control” the situation with military tactics, not to contribute to the well being and safety of the community they supposedly serve. After the “offenders” took the flag down the officer had no reasonable basis to write a citation, which would surely have been dismissed in court. These officers are going to have a hard time justifying their actions in court, especially when it concerns such a minor infraction. After all, it was just someone expressing themselves in a way that others thought was desecration, NOT someone running a crack house or brandishing a firearm around the neighborhood. When I was a kid, our local sheriffs acted a lot more like Andy Taylor, and a lot less like Dirty Harry.
Ever wonder why some politicians are so interested in spending massive amounts of taxpayer money on building more jails and prisons? To lock away not just violent criminals but those with opposing political views. The American dystopia is slowly turning into a martial state run by wealthy despots.
Excessive force. Yeah sure. But these people are idiots. Support the damn country that provides you your freedom, and the men who bleed, lose limbs and die for your right to be an ignorant, spiteful person. They left the flag that way. There is a code of conduct for the flag. If you don’t know about it, or don’t care. LEAVE MY COUNTRY. I put the flag out every morning, and take it in every evening. The flag was flown everywhere after 9/11 out of respect and patriotism. If your so lost and confused, the statement you should have been looking for is to take your flag down and not fly it. Thats a pretty big indicator to me that your patriotism is wavering. Excessive force? Sure. But I see a disgruntled american patriot. That such ungrateful people get to reap the benefits of the brave men and women who put those red stripes on that flag. Goto Canada or something.
Davido, why should they have to move to San Francisco to have their First Amendment rights protected. Why do you hate the Constitution? Why do you hate the Bill of Rights?
I live in Western Washington state. My home town is “red” with shades of “purple”. I have a very large “IMPEACH” sign on my front lawn. I’ve been wondering how long it’s going to take for someone to get irate and plow into it with their car (pick-up) I hope this story gets BIG coverage the next few weeks. Who’s going to DC in October?
If you want to know what’s really going on this this country search video.google.com for 911 and watch the 9/11 Mysteries ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003 ) the Loose Change video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501
), or 9/11 Press For Truth ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5589099104255077250 )
Things are far worse than you think, and this couple is igniting a powerkeg.
The actions of the officer truly indicate that this country is indeed in “Distress”. What this couple did was within the Law, within their rights. They were intimidated and assulted for exercising these rights. I also would be interested in Who were the military men that were seen driving by, taking pictures and basically trying to do a number on these citizens, harrassment. Just because you wear a uniform one is not above the Law.
These folks got what they asked for. You can not run away from a law enforcement officer when he asks for you identification.
Additionally, if the accused had complied with the officers initially directions to remove the desecrated flag (in violation of state laws), the officers would not have been injured and Mark and Deborah Kuhn would not have been arrested.
So, did you National Guard folks call in similar reports during the various illegal alien demonstrations in the last year or so that showed the American flag being burned, trampled, defiled, flown upside down, and flown underneath the Mexican flag? Or is it only a crime when Americans do it?
We have already seen how the police and government will respond. The illegals can gather in groups numbering in the tens of thousands to defy our laws, and the cops do absolutely NOTHING but stand by and thumb themselves in abject fear. Let a couple of American citizens refuse to show their ID though, and the billy clubs and tasers are eagerly brought into play.
America: land of the free, home of the brave.
Section 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights
Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.
I don’t know how it is out there, but in California a sad and pathetic liberal state I’m ashamed to call my home. A police officer can and most likely will arrest you for failing to comply with a lawful order. On a personal note, not only was it flag desecration…which is against the law there…but the manor in which it was being hung is obviously akin to sending out a distress call on a radio or making a prank 911 call for reasons of political protest, neither of those things would be covered under freedom of speech…The story mentioned a police officer even stopping prior to the incident, so obviously its a hassle for law enforcement….and judging from what little i have gathered about these people, they are the same type of liberal disgustingly litigious people that would sue the police department a year from now for hanging the flag upside and expecting them to realise they were in distress for some reason and they didn’t stop.
People like this are what will lead to the eventual downfall of this nation, and sadly, thats exactly what they want.
Huck you have every right to be offended, you have no right to go onto their property and take action against THEIR exercise of free speech. Not sure who said it but your right to respond ends just prior to your fist hitting their nose. Go any further, make contact, trespass etc. and you violate THEIR rights. As this Sheriff Deputy clearly did. the First, Fourth and Fifth Ammendments are not in the Bill of Rights by accident.
And for those of you not familiar with this most important document here is a link for you
http://www.law.emory.edu/index.php?id=3080
Not to mention this one why many of us are so poopsed to OUR Current King George
http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm
Wow, In North Carolina you see people flying the CONFEDERATE flag in many places, are they ‘violating the law’ too?
obviously from the picture in the Citizen-Times, this couple is not a liberal couple, but republicans, and republicans that are not blinded by the “patriotism” and “terrorism” tactic used by bush and giuliani… They have a Ron Paul for President sign… He is a VERY huge defender of the constitution, as every elected person SHOULD be, but usually aren’t… Everyone, left and right, should take a few minutes to read more about Ron Paul and what he stands for…
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770725118
This story sickens me… he should have left their home as soon as they took the flag down, which they didn’t even HAVE to do…
i ask everyone who believes in personal liberty to turn their flags upside down this morn, ’till the anniversary of Hiroshima (august 4th)
Clearly a violation of their First, Fourth and fifth Ammenment Protections by an out of control Cop.
For those of you who may need a refresher on what this document is.
http://www.law.emory.edu/index.php?id=3080
And Huck your rights end just PRIOR to the point your fist would intersect their nose. You have ever right to protest in reverse, you have no right to stop theirs.
And then there is this little item which indicates what Patriots did the LAST time we had a Tyrant King George.
http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm
I just wish we had Statesmen in Congress who thought more about the Welfare of the Country than they do about their Political backsides.
Why does serving in the military make some people think that the flag (and the country) are “theirs”? It’s OURS–we the people, EVERYwhere.
WE are the country. The military (and the flag and the government) serves *US*. Some of use don’t seem to understand what that means.
I’m not really afraid of a turn toward true facism in this country, but the United States is certainly not completely immune to those sentiments that make totalitarianism palatable.
When I read about this travesty this morning I just cried. I could not help myself. The citizens in the Kuhn’s town will suffer the same fate if they desecrate their flags in protest: *see the link below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OG1GKPMdUA
Our government has spread FASCISM out over decades to insure slow indoctrination to the idea. They have spent Trillions and Trillions of dollars, so believe me, its not going away anytime soon regardless of any type of public revolt.
http://digg.com/world_news/Holocaust_Survivor_Leaving_US/all
”facist”…LOL!!!
It never fails to amaze me how STUPID ”people” like you are who use that term, its called COMMUNISIM, its COMMUNISIM when you cant do what you want in your own country. Get it right…you only wish Hitler was yer leader, cause you’d all be blond and in shape instead of fat retarded kwans, haha!
All you ”cell phone worshipers” are gonna get it!!!!
Apparently there was a gold suv similar to the one originally witnessed by neighbors on the 25th full of camo clad occupants, now driving around west asheville late at night screeching tires and picking someone up who had been stealthily running around the houses.
Please, if this is indeed the original suv, do not do anything stupid. You are not in Iraq and this is not a war-zone. This is American soil.
I would have shot that cop in the face. No warrant, no face! Thats what you do to thugs in Texas.
I came home to the states after two years in Africa and I see more and more of this gestapo type behavior by roided-out police. It seems every arrest involves multiple taser stuns as these guys and “girls” get off on their own type of Guantanamo torture of citizens. Every police encounter with the public should be video recorded with harse penalties (arrest, trial, incarceration) for police brutality.
Clearly you have two kinds of writers posting here:
1. Those who understand that, as offensive as they may be to some people, protests using the American flag are almost always protected by the Constitution as exercises in free speech. This has been affirmed over and over by the Supreme Court.
2. Those who want to protect the flag *at all costs* because it means so much to them personally — even if doing so flies in the face of the First Amendment to the Constitution.
So my question to y’all is: What’s more important to you, a piece of cloth or a piece of paper. (Me, I’ll take the paper.)
Oh, and PS: The sheriff’s deputies are power-hungry thugs who need a remedial course in the law. They make NC look pretty ignorant.
I don’t care how mad you are at Bush because I don’t like the guy ether. but to fly our flag upside down is horrible that is our nations symbol. You should fly it proud. Be proud to be an American. Hate bush and the government all you want but respect this country.
To all of the people posting here who have served this country and support the actions of the police in this matter, I have questions:
Didn’t you serve to protect the U.S. Constitution, our freedom, and liberties in America?
And if not, why don’t you travel through a time machine to Germany in the late 1930’s, where you would feel more at home?
A different David, I could not agree with any poster more. Well said. the constitution is more than just a piece of paper. It is a trust between the citizens and the government limiting what the Government can do to the Citizenry. When that trust is broken even in minor ways we ALL are injured. Unfortunately over the past few years the violence done to the Constitution has been well beyond minor, it more closely resembles full scale rips to the very fabric of what makes this a Great Nation. The Kuhn’s have it exactly right this IS a Country in Distress, where the Constitution is being run roughshod over in the name of “Security”. Might I remind you what one of the founding fathers said: “Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty.
Benjamin Franklin”
“What ever happened to complying with the orders of a police officer?”
What ever happened to police officers acting like responsible civil servants? Obviously, the situation got out of hand, but if he had reasonably explained the situation to them — that he had to give them a citation as a matter of procedure — and not acted threatening and belligerent to them, then they probably wouldn’t have felt that their safety was in danger. The officer could have been calm and rational, but instead he opted to respond to a citation situation involving non-violent civil disobedience in a violent manner.
For fairly obvious reasons, police are only allowed to respond to situations with force under very specific circumstances. Usually this is when their safety or the safety of those nearby is threatened. Did he really feel that their refusal to give ID was a threat to his personal safety while carrying out his job? Doubtful at best. The couple felt threatened by his actions and demeanor and were correct in attempting to protect themselves from physical harm.
Consider this as the same thing as a owner of an illegally parked vehicle refusing to provide his driver’s license. The police officer doesn’t need the identification to write the ticket, but it does make it easier to write the correct information.
Would a police officer be correct in beating this person to attain it so that he could write a parking ticket more accurately? No, of course not. Is he responding the situation with the correct level of escalation? Again, no. Why? Because there’s no crime to be “resisted” in this situation. It’s a citation, not an arrest warrant.
If he was concerned for his safety, if he thought the couple were going inside to get a gun or something, he also did not respond correctly. He should have withdrawn to a safe distance and waited for backup, then responded appropriately. Kicking down a door like some solo SWAT cowboy is not the way these situations are to be handled, ever.
What should the officer have done? He should have acted like a reasonable, responsible civil servant responding to a minor complaint on an mostly unenforceable, highly interpretable law that he knew would never stand up to competent legal scrutiny. He should have been calm and in control at all times.
He wasn’t, and he’ll pay for that mistake.
“If I see someone flying the American flag upside down, I get very offended
What about my rights?”
You have the right to be offended. You do not have the right to harass them on their own property, break down their door, beat them up and then detain them. Nor do the police, for that matter.
I don’t understand the confusion. Most Americans voted for candidates that want this type of surveillance and protection. In addition, most Americans do not take the time to research which candidates they should vote for. I see no problem with this at all. You get what you vote for.
I personally will give up my freedom to protest if it means I will be protected against the crazy, angry Americans who voted for Bush twice in a row.
Watch… if you’ve got the guts: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
It’s lawsuit time, baby.
There is a small US Supreme Court case called Goguen vs. Massachusetts which probably applies and voids the law against the desecration of the flag, especially since the case was based upon political speech.
I don’t have to like the flag being flown upside down, but since a cousin of mine took the time to go to jail for having sewn a small US flag on the backside of his jeans and won the case, It is the law of the land for today.
QUOTE: “this couple is not a liberal couple, but republicans, … They have a Ron Paul for President sign”
It does not follow that a person who supports the candidacy of Ron Paul for President is a Republican.
Ron Paul is philosophically libertarian. His party affiliation is Republican.
Anyone can support Ron Paul is they think he is the best candidate across the field regardless of party affiliation.
I support Ron Paul for President. I am not a member of any political party. In North Carolina, I am registered as Unaffiliated.
if they think…
Huck, if you are offended by seeing a flag flown upside down–LOOK AWAY or CLOSE YOUR EYES. You have as much right to look where you choose as that couple has a right to protest in any non-violent way they choose.
Also Huck (sorry, wish I’d have thought of this before I clicked “submit”) Muslims (who have a legal right to live in this fine country of ours) may be offended by the sight of a woman’s uncovered flesh–do you agree we should enact laws to protect them from being offended, too?
You Americas are fucked! If you had take the advice of Taliban and prosecuted him with law this wold not happen in your country, but you made mockery of every body. Terrorize the people of this world and then you expect your selves to be immune from it! What goes around comes around and your will reap the benefits of it! Sadaam is coming to your country!
“What ever happened to complying with the orders of a police officer?” indeed.
I have a question for all you armchair lawyers (or real ones) out there: At what point can you refuse an officer’s “request”? I’m sure this will vary from state to state as several posts above point out, so let’s keep this relevant to NC or Federal jurisprudence.
If I’m driving and an officer blue-lights me, I have to stop. However, in NC if the police car is unmarked or it is at night you are within your rights to proceed to a service station or other safe area. If I’m driving and he asks to see my ID that’s part of the contract I agreed to in order to get my license–I have to show it to him in order to prove I am legally permitted to drive. However, if he asks me to perform a sex act on him, I am D@#^ sure not going to comply with that order, as it was not an order he is legally permitted to issue.
As has been pointed out before, in the State of NC you can not be ordered to “show your papers” by law enforcement (unless, of course, you are driving.) So the couple refused to comply with an illegally issued order. As has been pointed out before, Federal jurisprudence has upheld that incorporating a flag into a protest is protected speech. And as we all know, Federal law trumps any state or local ordinance–just ask anyone in California who has been dispensing marijuana to patients with prescriptions.
…cont’d
The order to remove the flag was illegal, yet the Kuhns chose to comply in order to de-escalate the situation. However, rather than be satisfied that his illegal order was followed, the officer chose to escalate the situation. He asserts that they slammed the door on his hand. I ask what was his hand doing that close to the door, when he had no warrent and the Kuhns were obviously not inviting him in?
I applaud the members of our military who have responded to this thread with the reasonable and level-headed assertion that they served and fought to protect our rights to do exactly what the Kuhns were doing. Whether you agree or disagree with the sentiment their protest was expressing, they have a Constitutional right to express it without fear of violence or intimidation. I assert that they suffered both violence and intimidation, not from an unruly mob or disgruntled passers-by, but from the law enforcement system and from officers who have sworn to protect and serve, to uphold the laws, and to keep order.
In the same situation, once the officer forced his way into my home, it wouldn’t have been Han who shot first…
OK, first of all anyone assaulting a cop — especially a violent, out of control one like the ones in this story — are good in my book. Fucking cops need to go the way of the dodo, and get extinct. Good for nothing perpetrators, and goons of the American prison system. They’re trying to build a prison for you and me to live in, another prison system for you and me to live in.
To the military posters: we appreciate your service, but you don’t have any special right not to be offended. Offensive and distasteful speech is the price we pay for living in a free society. The alternative is much worse. It is my understanding, and I hope it is yours as well, that those who fight in the military are fighting for the Constitution–for the right of free speech and for the right not to have you home invaded by the government. That is America. If you’re not fighting for that, I don’t understand what you could be fighting for.
I am not pro-withdrawl, though I was against the initial invasion.
I served in the military and was injured.
I am neither conservative nor liberal.
If this story is as given here then this is a travesty of justice. Those officers should, at the least, be suspended if not fired. While I don’t like the fact that these people hung the flag upside down and pinned things to it, we live in America and they have the right to express themselves. Nor do we have to provide “papers” upon request. Though our freedoms are quickly being removed from us one by one, thanks to politicians on both sides of the issues.
The officers actions were disgusting.
Feel strange. Latelely all news that come from usa look like southamerican ones from the 70’s 80s. It seems that its impossible to feel the freedom if you live there. Its sad.
Wow it never surprises me that rightwingers are so hateful and spiteful. David and you other republicans really need to be pinked slipped your all a bunch of whackos and need to be locked up! This administration and the rightwingers have and are systematically ruining the constitution and freedom of speech in this country and bad and evil things are happening in this country and is only going to get worse. The rightwing christian party is destroying this country. They beleive that only the right, straight, white christian folk are irrelavent. Kind of scary the Nazi party thought the same way! Asheville will stay liberal David so get over it and get a life. The cops will get away with this they always do!
after reading this and blogging about it (infinitepoint.blogspot.com) i was so enraged i called the sherrifs office there to file a complaint. i was told to call back monday and speak with captain roger. we are on the precipice here folks.
The police should have arrived to protect the civilian’s right of dissent. If they were brave they would have been there for that reason. If the law is anti-American one does not defend it, one protests it, resists it, and seeks to eliminate it from the books. Defiance is an American trait. Never forget, “Do not tread on me.”
To sam bowman: Unless your buddy died in the war of 1812 or the last revolution, it’s a good bed that the flag on his coffin was not a mark of honor, but of abject foolishness. God rest his soul.
Have you noticed that if the 911 call features something Media Friendly, it ends up on a nonstop media loop?
oddly enough, the call of a woman reporting the abuse from an officer…
…not so much the leakage to media, eh?
Funny that.
Now it it had included officers risking life & limb of everyone on a highway & a mob of media & helicopters in a high speed chase to pursue Paris Hilton’s return to the slammer…
THAT you can’t get off the air either…
hmmmmm
Spread Love…
… but wear the Glove!
BlueBerry Pick’n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
“Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced”
I live in Asheville and travel for my job. Im currently in San Diego working. You can only imagine my shock when I was listening to Air America last night and the local A.M. station here in San Diego mention Asheville and the upcoming interview!!! Even though I arrived at my destination, I couldnt move from the car. I just couldnt believe that this had even happened in Asheville! Mr.and Mrs Kuhn, I applaude your valor and strength. It is such a shame that the policies and mind set of George Bush have now permeated our community! My only regret is that Im not home to actively participate in what ever forum you choose, to further bring this to the attention of the rest of the nation. Keep turning those flags upside down.. our country truly is in distress!!!!!!!!!
I notice that in the above threads… nobody mentions that this situation was precipitated by “a man in military fatigues”. And that the Ashevillie police has already seen the couple, and went away reassured… so this individual or individuals called a ‘friend’ of their’s in Buncombe police department, who went out to the house outside of his jurisdiction.
This was not a case of one over-zealous cop over-reacting in the heat of the moment.
This was a federal officer, possibly several, approaching outside of official channels a police officer whom they knew would be sympathetic to them. A police officer who basically went there spoiling for a fight, without informing his superiors what he was doing. The couple may consider themselves lucky this didn’t end in a shooting.
This is a case of one or more military officers, making use of a police officer known to be willing to step outside of the law, to commission an act of intimidation upon a civilian couple.
Lets call it by what it really was:
State sponsored terrorism.
And lets us lay the blame where it belongs: Squarely on the Republican machine for creating the atmosphere of terror.
Davido, you are mentally ill. I hope Iran takes care of you.
All of you are ignoring the fact that this man was asked for identification and refused it, he had no right to refuse a police officer who was following up on a law being broken. When they refused him and slammed the door locking it, that was resisting arrest and he did the right thing in going after him. This is America, and our flag should fly upright. If you want to desecrate our flag, move to Iraq and join that bunch of idiots over there.
The best account of what happened is the floor guy. He doesn’t have a dog in the fight and his statement seems very objective. He saw the Kuhns take down the flag and go inside. Then he saw the deputy go bananas.
So far, it seems like a classic case of excessive force on the part of Deputy Scarborough. I don’t think he should have a job that requires him to carry weapons.
No where in the Constitution does it require Citizens to present their “papers” at the whim of any jack booted thug with a badge Michael B. The Law is unconstitutional as has been pointed out numerous times, there was no “crime”, there was no resisting arrest since they were not UNDER Arrest. No one, not even a Cop, has the right to come into your home uninvited without a warrant or probable cause of a crime, there was none. The Cop was out of his jurisdiction, out of line and in violation of the 1st, 4th and 5th Ammendments. I hope they sue his backside off.
wait, a backwater cop turns out to be a bully who got a badge so he could continue pushing people around after high school? he filed a false police report trying to make the people he arrested look guilty when it was he who was in the wrong? i am shocked, SHOCKED, to hear that. next you’ll tell me that a rock star uses cocaine!
seriously, anyone who’s ever dealt with a small-town cop (or rural county sheriff) already knows what kind of psychological profile makes up the vast majority of their ranks. the deputy had no right to do what he did, but he has a badge, and a gun, and in this country that gives you the right to do whatever you want.
to cynicL1…..re-read the article, it states that it is a crime in north carolina to desecrate the united states flag, so a law was being broken, and as for the resisting arrest part, when he did not comply with the request of the officer, he gave the officer cause to pursue this matter farther. it is not the officers job to determine the punishment for this law, just to enforce it….so if you re-read the article you will see he was breaking a law and in the wrong for doing so.
Minor problem with your thesis Michael B.
(1) the Law he was enforcing is one that has in other cases been declared unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court, see posts further up the page for the citation.
(2) They had complied with his instruction to remove the flag EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT ILEGAL to fly it in such a manner.
(3) No one has the right to come into MY home without probable cause a crime is being committed or without a search warrant.
As has been noted ad nauseum the law itself is unconstitutional, there was no crime. The Officer was in thee wrong, period end of story. The Witnesses note the irrational behavior of the officer, who lied on his report. There is no pla ce in THIS Country for such Jack Booted Thugery under color of authority. The Officer is the one who should be sitting in Jail not the Kuhn’s.
You do not give up your RIGHTS just because some one in a position of authority trys to over ride them. The Law covers both directions, and it is about time those in authority were reminded of this. Not to mention who they work for.
Public Livejournal for flag protesters:
http://community.livejournal.com/distressflag/
Michael B: Think before you type. The deputy was issuing a citation, not an arrest warrant. Likewise, no law was being broken, as it’s not against the law to hang a flag upside-down or staple things too it. It’s illegal to “desecrate” it, which essentially means “physically attacking” or “ruining” it, which they weren’t doing.
Here’s what that term means according to the law, and you should know this before you post anything else: “… contempt upon any flag of the United States or upon any flag of North Carolina by public acts of physical contact including, but not limited to, mutilation, defiling, defacing or trampling.”
They were hanging the flag outside of their own house. It was upside-down and had a message stapled to it, but that isn’t the same as defacing it. Having a dirty, worn American flag sticker on your car, however, would be.
No law was being broken by this couple, period. The deputy was completely in the wrong, period.
Further, physical violence or force of any kind was not called for. The deputy is pretty obviously in the wrong on a number of other procedural points, and was clearly overreacting to the situation.
Sue, sue, sue!
Bankrupt the bastards!
this is the tourism website for asheville,nc give them a call and let them know how you feel
http://www.exploreasheville.com/contact-us/index.aspx
The Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office is totally out of control and the deputies clearly, blatantly and deliberately violated the Constitutional rights of peaceful, law abiding citizens.
Let us say, for the sake of argument, that the arrested persons had been viciously beating their dog earlier in the day. Such an act is a crime, just about everywhere. (This is to get away from the flag burning issue.)
There was STILL no grounds for the unlawful, excessive and completely unjustifiable entry made by the deputy.
If I witnessed the deputy’s actions, I would go to the district attorney and swear out an affidavit, then go and make a private person’s arrest OF THE DEPUTY on the charge of breaking and entering, burglary (unlawful entry to commit a felony, to be specific, the Federal felony of violating a citizen’s civil rights under color of authority.) I would bring media with me, as apparently the glaring light of publicity is all that is between the citizens of Asheville and the uniformed thugs of Buncombe County.
The various commentators above who do not understand the concept of a warrant deserve the police state they think they live in. The demand to show ID was unlawful and inappropriate on its face. No purpose in law or justice was served in this matter.
No one was in danger. Exigent circumstances do not apply. Police do not break into a private person’s home without a warrant or an emergency. Neither existed. The entry was unlawful. QED.
Whether he was burning the American flag or burning his wife’s panties is irrelevant. Our freedoms and liberties do not lie in a scrap of cloth, however holy, but in the sacred agreement that a government is of, by, and for the people, as provided for in the Constitution of the United States of America.
We dishonor that at our nation’s peril.
I’m not certain why the homeowner didn’t defend his home properly from this armed thug. Perhaps North Carolina doesn’t have a “make my day” law like we have here in Colorado. If not, I can understand why he didn’t kill the thug immediately upon realizing he was in imminent danger.
I hope the people abused by this pig-shucking piece of crap cop sue the fascist, rathole sheriff’s department into penury.
Me? I’d want that fascist pig mofo’s badge, presented to me on a plaque in a ceremony presided over by the Sheriff himself and attended by media state-wide, and a public apology.
This is ridiculous, is just a fucking flag. Sorry american friends, but you have a very stupid laws …
“The sheriff’s office report states that “the man [Mark Kuhn] refused to identify himself and slammed the door on the officer’s hand, breaking the glass pane out of the door and cutting the officer’s hand.”
Sure..
I’m amazed this savage flag criminal didn’t attack the underside of the poor officers boot with his face and teeth, also..
For more on this story, including more photos, check out:
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770726111
There is no such thing as a Republican patriot.
fas·cism (fshzm)
n.
1. often Fascism
a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.
Stand up
Fight back
or suffer the fate of the jews and gypsies
any law passed that takes away a constitutionally protected right is on its face UNLAWFUL and does not need to be followed.
It is an interestingly sad notion in our society that we have to spend time discussing an incident like this. The fact is that the American flag has always represented false ideals throughout the course of history. If you research American history (not through commercialized public school text), you will understand that neither the flag nor the Declaration of Independence actually represented a true freedom in every sense; it was in fact, primarily a freedom for a new government and the root of corporate America; and not directly a freedom for its people.
When issues like this arise, people from one side shout “I bled for this country and don’t want to see someone desecrate the American flag.” From the other side, you hear people shout a thousand points of law and a host of constitutional rights. Regardless of the facts of this case, there is one simple fact: The Kuhns were not hurting anyone with their display other than by offending some people and perhaps an officer. Unfortunately, it has become a crime to offend people. Fast food, Cable Television, Corporate America, and the U.S. Government offend our intelligence every day; and most times there is very little consequence.
We can talk about laws, patriotism, and such. But human decency and fairness hopefully will prevail here. No one can be sure exactly what happened other than the officer and the Kuhn family. However, it does seem apparent that this incident is representative of the current government of the United States of America: Impose its will on others who do not share the same ideas or political beliefs. This is a fine country to live in, but there is shame in a government which clearly doesn’t represent its flag or its people.
SOS SOS SOS SOS SOS SOS
Salven al pueblo de Venezuela
Necesisdades, inseguridad, muerte en las carceles, hambre, Manipulacion, organos judiciales comprados
NO AL CASTRO COMUNISMO DE CHAVEZ
SOS
SOS
SOS
SOS
This is another typical example of power hungry people of authority trampling and disregarding the civil liberties of innocent citizens… This officer should be fired, charged with breaking and entering as well as assault, this couple should sue the sheriff’s department and justice should be served! This is unacceptable behavior and something should be done to prevent this kind of action from happening again!!
What about my rights? I get sexually excited when I see a flag upside down. Don’t I have a right to love out flag!?
Reversed crossbars. It’s the signal of avenue of AntiChrist!.
Please contact the US Attorney and FBI and ask them to investigate this incident:
Federal Bureau of Investigation
400 South Tryon Street
Suite 900
Charlotte, North Carolina 28285
(704) 377-9200
U.S. Attorney for Western North Carolina
Rm 233, US Courthouse
100 Otis Street
Asheville NC 28801
Phone: (828) 271-4661
Fax: (828) 271-0670
Despite the fact that the ‘average’ american might be intimidated to make a permanent move to the area, after reading this story… not only do I STILL plan to make a permanent move here, I will do so more confidently knowing that there are people in Asheville who not only know how to speak their minds but are not afraid to do so. As for their “treatment” of the u.s. flag, I don’t really have an opinion – I do not fly one.(My reasoning for this comes from the fact that I married someone from the U.K.- you know, our ALLIES!,- yet still had to spend thousands and wait for two and a half years for him to be allowed over here as my HUSBAND! All the while I have had to watch illegal immigrants being allowed to live and work here without any consequences. I have also worked at a u.s. hospital that allowed illegal aliens to have FREE surgeries at their facility!!! My husband has never been given any free medical treatment since he has been here…) I can hardly wait for this move now! To those there in Asheville who know what is really going on and want everyone to know, THANK YOU!
To “support it or leave it”:
>Excessive force. Yeah sure.
You’re darn right that is excessive force.
>But these people are idiots. Support the damn country that provides you your freedom
It is not the “country” that gives you your rights, your rights are endowed by our Creator. Read the Declaration of Independence if you have trouble understanding this concept.
>and the men who bleed, lose limbs and die for your right to be an ignorant, spiteful person.
With all due respect for the troops, the undeclared, unConstitutional wars the US govrennment have been waging in the last 55 years have not made us more safe, they have made us less safe. Read Blowback, the 9/11 Commission Report, and other scholarly works about the concept of blowback. Also read George Washington’s Farewell Address regarding his advice for foreign policy.
>They left the flag that way. There is a code of conduct for the flag. If you don’t know about it, or don’t care. LEAVE MY COUNTRY.
This entire country does not belong to you alone, my friend. Maybe you wish you owned the entire country, but you don’t.
>I put the flag out every morning, and take it in every evening.
You have every right to do this, and if anybody were to try to interfere with your right to do so, they would be committing a crime against your right to your liberty, your property, and your pursuit of happiness.
>The flag was flown everywhere after 9/11 out of respect and patriotism.
The United States government, because of its aggressive interventionist policy since 9/11, now has more enemies around the world than ever before and has lost the respect of more around the world than ever before in the history of this nation.
>If your so lost and confused, the statement you should have been looking for is to take your flag down and not fly it. Thats a pretty big indicator to me that your patriotism is wavering.
Patriotism is not defined by flag-waving. Google Video “Ron Paul Patriotism” and listen to what patriotism really means in this day and age.
>Excessive force? Sure. But I see a disgruntled american patriot.
It does appear that the victims in this case are disgruntled American patriots.
>That such ungrateful people get to reap the benefits of the brave men and women who put those red stripes on that flag.
I respect soldiers, but unfortunately the current foreign policy of pre-emptive warfare in the Middle East does not personally benefit me, but in fact causes blowback in terms of increased government spending, increasing debt, deficits and inflation, and increase of hatred and increase in the number of terrorists in Iraq.
>Goto Canada or something.
You do not have the authority to tell other Americans where to go. I am sure you do not think others have the authority to tell you where to go either.
To Rodger:
>These folks got what they asked for. You can not run away from a law enforcement officer when he asks for you identification.
That is for a court to decide. And let us say these citizens are innocent until proven guilty. How do you know the police were not lying in the facts they wrote down on their report?
In this country you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. Do you want to reverse that presumption in this country? It is the reverse in totalitarian dictatorships. Is that what you want in this country?
To Swagger:
>On a personal note, not only was it flag desecration…which is against the law there…
That is for a jury to decide. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law is the American way.
>but the manor in which it was being hung is obviously akin to sending out a distress call on a radio or making a prank 911 call for reasons of political protest, neither of those things would be covered under freedom of speech…
This was not a distress call on a radio, and this was not a prank 911 call. The police had checked a couple days earlier and had at that time documented that this in fact was a political statement, NOT a prank call asking for emergency police assistance.
>The story mentioned a police officer even stopping prior to the incident, so obviously its a hassle for law enforcement….
I don’t know why it is a “hassle” for a peace officer to deal with trying to keep the peace in the community. After all, that is what they are paid for!
>and judging from what little i have gathered about these people, they are the same type of liberal disgustingly litigious people that would sue the police department a year from now for hanging the flag upside and expecting them to realise they were in distress for some reason and they didn’t stop.
You are making an assumption that these people are “disgusting” and “litigious” simply because they exercised their First Amendment rights, and simply because they were possible victims of police brutality and police assault and felonies.
>People like this are what will lead to the eventual downfall of this nation, and sadly, thats exactly what they want.
You are assuming that these people want this, without any evidence to support your contention. How do you know what these people want? Do you read minds?
What will lead to the downfall of this nation is people who do not understand the Bill of Rights.
Michael B:
>All of you are ignoring the fact that this man was asked for identification and refused it
That story is in dispute. In America, the rule is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law
>>he had no right to refuse a police officer who was following up on a law being broken.
You have a right to refuse a request from a police officer. Did the police officer ask, or make a demand? Even if it was a demand, it is only a jury that can decide if the law was being broken. Even if the deputy believed a law was being broken, that gives him no right to initiate violence, try to kick the door down, then break the glass, enter the home, and assualt the citizen.
>When they refused him and slammed the door locking it, that was resisting arrest
Again the story is in dispute. Innocent until proven guilty.
>and he did the right thing in going after him.
No, that is not the ideal way to arrest a peaceful person, by kicking his door, and then breaking and entering and assaulting him.
>This is America, and our flag should fly upright. If you want to desecrate our flag, move to Iraq and join that bunch of idiots over there.
You do not own their house, or my home, and you have no authority to tell people where to live, just like we have no authority to tell you where to live.
Welcome to the police state, folks. The jackbooted government thugs are accountable to no one, certainly not the citizenry.
so, in the US… one can sleep in their home, be awoke & demanded to for identification.
Welcome to Baghdad.
“The Dark Heart Of Fascism In The United States” BBC audio Documentary
http://thiscanadian.typepad.com/this_canadian/2007/07/the-dark-heart-.html
“Yell Fire!”: Bush to freeze peace activist assets? – Executive Order to “Blocking Property of Certain Persons Who Threaten Stabilization Efforts in Iraq”
http://thiscanadian.typepad.com/this_canadian/2007/07/bush-to-freeze-.html
Congratulations, you finally freaked us out.
Canadian Border guards to be armed
http://thiscanadian.typepad.com/this_canadian/2007/07/border-guards-a.html
Spread Love…
… but wear the Glove!
BlueBerry Pick’n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
“Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced”
Wow. If anything they were claiming were true, this would be quite a story. Here we have a couple of violent criminals who took on the cops and got reamed. Let them rot in jail.
Doesn’t it seem strange to you no one worthy of respect ever has these problems?
living proof that there are many mentally handicapped individuals who still get to use the internet & vote.
Its great to see Liberalism at work that allows these profoundly handicapped individuals the RIGHT to Freedom of Expression despite their incapability to comprehend 700 years of legal Human Rights rulings.
So there you go, a culture is truly judged by the way it treats the most helpless of their members…
Spread Love…
… but wear the Glove!
BlueBerry Pick’n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
“Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced”
===
Dwindle, Jul 29, 2007 , at 11:29 PM
“Wow. If anything they were claiming were true, this would be quite a story. Here we have a couple of violent criminals who took on the cops and got reamed. Let them rot in jail.
Doesn’t it seem strange to you no one worthy of respect ever has these problems?”
Military. I never asked you to join. I never asked you to go kill children and abuse women around the world. Stop using the “Honor your military for their sacrifices and the flag for what it represents” line. You follow orders which are immoral and unethical. You take a pay check and benefits to do or support these acts. Simple thugs looking to sign on the line so they can bully everyone around.
Right now, the flag represents an illegal war killing a whole bunch of innocent people. It NEEDS to be flying upside down. Support the troops!? Why? They are grinding what’s left of our name into the sand each day when they don’t think for themselves and just go home. “Why didn’t any of the German’s just stop following orders?”
Hope that cop ends up in jail for a tour. Hope those nat. guard guys wake up and find out there’s more to life than being bullies and shooting guns on the weekend. Serve your country without a gun if you really want to prove something.
john elliott talk show guy on kphx talked with mrs kuhns, and was being a little foolish in playing lawyer advising her on legal strategy
elliott was attempting to talk her out of her legal options
he showed absolutely no knowledge of what civil and criminal offenses had been committed against her, and her husband, by scarborough, and the county sheriff’s office
he made a totally unsubstantiated claim that scarborough was suffering from post traumatic stress syndrome,
following a stint in iraq … there’s no evidence that scarborough suffered adverse psychological effects arising out of action in iraq … it was totally wild speculation on elliott’s part
elliott foolishly dismissed the strong possibility that scarborough was a bullying thug before he went to iraq; and that he remained a thug during, and after, action in iraq
the county cops, independent of scarborough, quickly loaded up the charges against the kuhns; this went well beyond what scarborough did; it was obviously a criminal conspiracy at the sheriffs office; a criminal tactic common among corrupt criminal police forces
also, scarborough, and the county, quickly joined in a criminal conspiracy to cook the evidence that supported the charges; its called perjury; the rapidity of the expansion of charges clearly, with obiously perjured evidence showed that this was not an isolated event; this had all the hallmarks of a common pattern of corruption from a totally corrupted criminal police force
note, as to the liability of the police, we’re talking here about serious jail time for all the cops involved; all cops who knowingly perjured themselves when they put in false reports
i don’t see any basis for cutting scarborough, or the county, any slack
and there are millions of dollars on the table, whether the kuhns keep the money, after costs, or donate it to a charity and the record is that even millions of dollars in a civil action suit against the county probably wouldn’t be enough to get a longstanding corrupt police force to mend its ways …these crooked police forces are incredibly resilient
don’t forget, this time the county criminal actions has been openly exposed; what about all the times they’ve pulled such stunts, and got away with them ?
i’m not suggesting kuhns should be used to score political points, but it’s far too premature to cut off legal options, before they’ve even been fully investigated, and assessed
the sheriff’s office, and the county police force, are obviously loaded with thugs
the kuhns need a team of skilled legal experts to look into this matter, and advise them
there’s no evidence that the county cops would be contrite, and reform, if the kuhn’s were lenient with them; in fact, all recent national experience point’s the other way
mrs kuhn’s, to paraphrase her, said the prior sheriff had a reputation as a thug; and from what she said it’s obvious they’ve said they’ve simply got a new thug for sheriff
This is outrageous. Whats the update on this? Has the UCLA taken up the case, have the officers been suspended? Why isn’t this a national news story?
A greater problem is that some citizens, much like our government, respect a piece of cloth more than they do their neighbors and the world.
Fascism on the march. Which way to the exit?
“The will of the people made the law and we must all respect authority.”
I am one of the people and never authorized the police to attack Americans for hanging a flag upside down. The cop has thus ccommitted an unlawful act.
Good thing Ben Franklin and Tom Jefferson refused to respect authority.
looks like the county is pushing sheite up hill with a rake on the flag desecration charge
§ 14-381. Desecration of State and United States flag.
It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and knowingly to cast contempt upon any flag of the United States or upon any flag of North Carolina by public acts of physical contact including, but not limited to, mutilation, defiling, defacing or trampling. Any person violating this section shall be deemed guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor.
1. from what i’ve read of the events, the kuhns action were not … “mutilation, defiling, defacing or trampling.”
2. nor, did their acts extend to similar acts … “public acts of physical contact ‘including, but not limited to’,… ”
i’d say not …
using the ejusdem generis rule of legal interpretation
Ejusdem generis (Of the same kinds, class, or nature) Where general words follow an enumeration of specific items, the general words are read as applying to other items akin to those specifically enumerated.
their acts were not akin to … “mutilation, defiling, defacing or trampling.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_interpretation
http://www.legal-explanations.com/definitions/ejusdem-generis.htm
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q;=ejusdem+generis
3. the section heading can be ignored for interpretive purposes … “Desecration of State and United States flag.”
4. next ” … It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and knowingly to cast contempt upon any flag of the ”
the kuhns did not “cast contempt upon any flag”
contempt could be either objective or subjective, objective in the mind of the community, and then it would need to be reasonable, or subjective in the minds of the kuhns, and the reasonableness test may or may not apply
in any events, it’s irrelevant because the kuhns by whatever standard adopted must’ve “willfully and knowingly”, used that standards, and done so with willful and knowing contempt … that they did NOT do … if i understand the kuhns, their assertion was just the opposite; they revere the symbolism of the flag, and they’re concerned that the us has become a fascist state, an authoritarian state, a dictatorship run by undemocratic thugs, the antithesis of their understanding of the of the significance of the flag
5. there’s also the free speech aspect of what they did … and the constitutionality of the state’s, north carolinian, law
6. hey, but asheville, north carolina is redneck country
we’re in nor carolina, close to the backwoodz gorja, delivrance country, where they made ned beatty squeal like a pig
I thank God everyday I moved away from this worthless town three years ago.
Get off the couch, take a shower (with soap) get a job and be a worthwhile member of the community and quit making high school mentality protests.
BTW…if we’re under martial law….Friday night I don’t recall having to show my “papers” to the “official” as I crossed the state line from SC to NC. The fact that everyone here is voicing their opinion seems to tell me otherwise about this so called “martial law”.
Grow the f’ck up.
Two points that should be considered is that
1. The Supreme Court overruled all flag desecration laws so this North Carolina law is invalid.
2. If the cop had his hand in the door when it was slammed then he was technically in the house. If he didn’t have a warrant nor probable cause then he should be held for unlawful entry.
Either way the cop was in the wrong and should be punished severely.
ERIC WALBURN, Davido, Mr. Love it or Leave it:
You guys don’t have a clue. Wake up! When you took the oath the day you enlisted, it did not say “protect and defend the flag as a sacred symbol”. (key word: SYMBOL).
I pity you because your training to brainwash you into a mindless automiton was obviously successful.
As a military member, following authority is obviously very important, as that is how the entire structure works. And that’s fine, military people sign up for that willingly. HOWEVER that does not apply to the common civilian. The “real world” is not some Article 2 UCMJ buracracy.
To thoughtlessly “respect authority” then let the courts sort it out is absurd. That’s just a step away from 1939 Poland and being asked for your papers just for walking down the street.
What’s really creepy is that ex-military are often considered top candidates for police work out in the real world. Do we really want a bunch of jack-booted thugs who have been BRAINWASHED “enforcing” our laws at the point of a gun?
WAKE UP!
To all of you who do not live in Asheville, I would like to clear up some things.
Asheville is a great city; we do have some hillbillies, hippies, religious fanatics, punks, freaks, homeless, rich, poor, black, white, native Americans, southerners, northerners, people from the east coast and people from the west coast, in short we are a melting pot representative of the United States.
It troubles me that so many comments are indicating that being southern is the root of this problem, it is an individual officer who lost control. This could have easily happened in New York, Massachussets or anywhere.
Chris B
We also thank God everyday that you moved three years ago, if you would do a favor and keep telling all your friends how terrible Asheville is, so that they are not tempted to move here. Thanks
I’m a former soldier who wore the uniform for a decade, was in Iraq/SA/Kuwait for the last desert boondoggle (which I supported wholeheartedly at the time).
I served to protect the rights of protest and free speech. I would never burn a flag or desecrate it personally, but will defend the rights of others (without hatred… their opinion is just as valid as mine) to do so until my last breath.
You ‘love it or leave it’ jokers need to read some history. Totalitarian states thrive under blind obedience and unchecked power of the state and their officials. It’s the Constitution… Learn it, Know it, Live it.
The Military is in Iraq, not to win a war on terrorism but to train the troops for “home deployment” against its own citizens of the Republic
by the “powers that be”! Have you not noticed that the so-called “police” looks more like military personal in black – it’s not to fight terrorism but to fight its own citizens – YOU!!! The Police Force of today is no longer the Peace Officer of yesterday.
If everyone who “desecrates” the flag were arrested including wearers of flag apparel, local newspapers, post office employees, “patriot” group members, advertizers, retailers, artists, judges, clerks, police, and everyone else who prints , sells, wears, and displays the flag in violation of U.S. code, title 4 section 8, there would only be a few of us left. If the law must be applied to one, it should apply to everyone.
Leave them alone, or arrest ’em all.
828-255-5000 is the sheriff’s office. They will put you through to an officer to talk about the case.
Dwindle
Jul 29, 2007
at 11:29 PM
“Wow. If anything they were claiming were true, this would be quite a story.”
-Isn’t it curious how all of the eyewitness testimony contradicts that of the police?
“Here we have a couple of violent criminals who took on the cops and got reamed.”
-No, the sheriffs deputy escalated the incident and trampled on their rights, he’s lucky that a superficially wounded hand was the extent of his injuries.
“Let them rot in jail.”
-Why don’t you find somewhere else to Troll?
“Doesn’t it seem strange to you no one worthy of respect ever has these problems?”
By respectable you mean like President Jefferson who once said:
Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms [of government] those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.-Thomas Jefferson
What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?-Thomas Jefferson
Power is not alluring to pure minds.-Thomas Jefferson
Dwindle, your opinion is incongruent with truth.
“This Constitution…shall be the supreme Law of the land; any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.”
You are the weakest link, good bye.
Didn’t GEORGE BUSH, “The Dubya”, aka “43” himself…
SIGN an American flag…
or was that a sort of “Presidential blessing”?
Bush pushing ‘former’ Moonie to UN WF programme
http://thiscanadian.typepad.com/this_canadian/2006/11/bush_pushing_fo.html
===
http://www.irregulartimes.com/flaggingsigns.html
===
Flagging Signs of American Democracy: How George W. Bush spilled ink all over Old Glory
Like father, like son.
Resident George W. Bush, our Commentator-In-Chief, has followed in his proud pappy’s footsteps in many ways, such as the colossal mismanagement of the economy, the pursuit of wars that seemed increasingly ridiculous as time went on, and the surrender of a clean America to the interests of friends and allies from big oil business.
Prime among these similarities from Bush to Bush, however, is the willingness to sacrifice freedom in order to maintain the superficial trappings of patriotism.
George Herbert Walker Bush defeated opponent Michael Dukakis through the same jingoistic patrio-mumble that has dominated the ribald reign of George Walker Bush. Daddy Bush dared Michael Dukakis to say the Pledge of Allegiance as much as he did, and promised to support an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to make it a crime to burn an American flag.
Just like Bush Senior, Since he occupied the White House, Bush Junior has vigorously sung “God Bless America” while supporting new laws to destroy the constitutional protection from governmental meddling in religion. Bush talks about waging a war between freedom and fear while locking up American citizens without a trial or lawyer and finding new ways to violate ordinary Americans’ freedom from unreasonable search and seizure.
Most recently, George W. Bush has spilled ink all over the American flag he insists that he is sworn to protect.
A little over a month ago, at a Republican political rally in Livonia, Michigan, George W. Bush signed his name as an autograph on the American flag. He did so not just once, but with several flags brought by his conservative fans solely for that purpose.
The funny thing is that George W. Bush has openly supported efforts by the Republican Congress to pass an amendment to the Constitution that would outlaw not just flag burning, but any “physical desecration” of the American flag.
This is where I start to get confused. You see, when I look up the meaning of “desecrate” (the root word of “desecration”), I find that to desecrate means to do damage to something that is sacred in such a way that reduces the religious nature of it. So, in order for the “desecration” of the American flag to even be possible, it must first be ordained as sacred. Thus, we see that an amendment to the Constitution forbidding the “desecration” of the American flag actually establishes an official governmentally-sponsored religious worship of the flag.
I thought George W. Bush was a born again Christian. Surely, he would know that the Bible strictly forbids idolatry. Hmm.
This whole language of “desecration” that George W. Bush seems so much in love with is troublesome. One problem is that Bush’s proposed constitutional amendment doesn’t bother to define what “desecration” is. It seems plenty arguable to me that signing an autograph on the American flag for the sake of fawning political supporters could definitely count as “desecration”. But, hey, I’m no expert. I’ll leave this whole matter of defining “desecration” up to the priests to decide.
Without a doubt, autographing the American flag is an act of stupendous arrogance. Often, autographs are given on blank pieces of paper. When autographs are given on particular objects, however, it is generally understood that these objects should be something that the represents the individual identity of the autographer or is something that the autographer can take personal credit for.
For instance, many politicians offer autographed copies of their own photographic portraits. Authors will autograph copies of books that they have written, because they can take credit for the content of those books. It would be generally be regarded as absurd for one politician to autograph the picture of another politician, or for an author to autograph another writer’s book.
It is equally absurd for George W. Bush to go around the country autographing the American flag. Doing so either suggests that Bush believes that he can take credit for the flag in some way, or implies that Bush believes that the American flag is especially connected to his own personal identity.
Now, as far as we know, George W. Bush had nothing to do with the creation of the American flag. Betsy Ross invented it, and even she didn’t have the arrogance to sign it. Does Bush dress up in drag like Betsy Ross? Rumors abound, but so far there is no proof.
Unfortunately, George W. Bush and his supporters have long been behaving as if they have ownership of the American flag. Flag pins and bumper stickers have been distributed for display as shorthand of support for Bush’s extremist policies. Republicans frequently accuse Americans who disagree with Bush of being “unAmerican”, as if the meanings of America and the American flag are defined by Republicans alone.
Republican hack Ann Coulter goes so far to accuse Americans who disagree with Bush of committing “treason”. Thus, Republicans confuse the person of George W. Bush with the democratic republic of the United States that George W. Bush has been appointed to serve. Such confusion suggests a growing conservative cult of personality around George W. Bush. In combination with the flag worship that Republicans are seeking to enforce on all Americans, this cult of personality takes on more and more of the appearance of a totalitarian state religion.
In the face of such a threat, we propose no new laws or amendments to Constitution. Instead, we propose that the best way to protect America from the despotism that increasingly flavors the personality of George W. Bush is to keep the laws and Constitution of the United States of America just as they are.
You see, what separates us from the likes of George W. Bush is that we love America so much because America allows its citizens to engage in free speech of all kinds, even when that speech is in disagreement with the current American government. We here at Irregular Times believe that the only way that the American government will ever gain the respect of its people is to earn it. Making disrespect of symbols of the American government a crime will only encourage such disrespect in the hearts of Americans and others across the world.
So, even though we believe that it is extraordinarily arrogant of George W. Bush to autograph American flags at his political rallies, we do not call for his arrest for doing so. When being arrogant and foolish is made a crime, we all will be criminals.
In fact, we encourage Mr. Bush to go on putting his signature all over Republicans’ flags. Doing so shows very clearly the kind of leader he would most like to be.
As a postscript, we thank the Washington Post for bringing the issue of Bush’s flag autographs to a national level of attention, through an editorial written on August 31, 2003. Pearls of truth can indeed be found in the mainstream press. We doubt that you’ll hear about this all on Fox News, though.
===
Spread Love…
… but wear the Glove!
BlueBerry Pick’n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
“Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced”
So the Sheriff “Regrets” how things happened and the law was delared unconstitutional by the N.C. Courts in 1971…
http://www.mountainx.com/news/2007/duncan_regrets_flag_desecration_incident_is_investigating
Looks like the Khun’s are due a BIG time appology.
Armed gangs roaming the streets looking for trouble!
It is sad that this is not simply some isolated incident and that it is becoming more and more common. The U.S. has the distinction of having the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world…and over 50% of those incarcerated are imprisoned for victimless crimes and crimes for which there is no injury to anyone’s life or property. The Law Enforcement Growth Industry is growing at an alarming pace. With the current nation-wide militarization of law-enforcement, we are sure to hear even more horrible stories of this nature.
The best we can do is to know our individual rights in the face of opposition and accusation. If we don’t know our rights then it can be accurately stated that we have none as our nation’s highest court has ruled many years ago that”…any rights not timely demanded are deemed to be waived.”
In the battle for Liberty,
Scott Thurston
http://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston
These jackboot thugs running around like Nazis are just disgusting. We have them all over America, but especially in NC you can’t avoid the police state and corporate driven manipulation. The Kuhn family was falsely targeted by the state for violation of a law ruled to be unconstitutional how many years ago?
I guess that just proves that a lot of police officers are idiots who can’t think for themselves and refuse to learn or evolve with the rest of the human race. Those who cooperate with the startling trend of illegal persecution and excess enforcement are not half as patriotic as the Kuhn’s are.
For those who think it wrong to resist being targeted for a violation of an unconstitutional law, you are promoting the violation of people’s civil rights and supporting tyranny.
The Sheriffs Dept. and this Officer (I cringe) should be severely punished for the crime that was committed against the Kuhn’s. Jackboot thugs acting like Nazis need to be purged from the roles of a civil society so that the rest of us can freely participate. That Officer should do some time behind bars, anything less is an injustice.
It is hard for me to understand why the people of Asheville would treat a returning veteran so abysmally. What kind of people are you that you do not value when one of our soldiers actually comes back alive? I felt disgust when I read about the Kuhns.
Thank you Brian Scarborough.
These clowns wanted their 15 minutes of fame, and they got it, probably just to make Ron Paul supporters look like idiots.
Raina –
Whether he’s a returning veteran or not is beside the point. I hope that you read more about this incident, do some research on America’s history and the Bill of Rights, and then rethink your opinion.
The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution:
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
Now, the Fourth Amendment actually does permit searches and seizures that are considered reasonable.
However, typically this means that the police may override your privacy concerns and conduct a search of your home, barn, car, boat, office, etc… If and ONLY if:
– the police have probable cause to believe they can find evidence that you committed a crime, and a judge issues a search warrant
or
– the particular circumstances justify the search without a warrant first being issued
Now Mike and those of you who defend this officer, tell me – what particular circumstance could the officer have used as a justification to perform a warrant-less search and seizure on their private property?
The answer is that the officer had no reasonable excuse to forcefully enter their house without a warrant; since first of all he was at their door in the first place over a misdemeanor citation, and second, there is no reasonable excuse to justify why the officer felt like he would have to enter their home. Failure to show your ID at your front door step is NOT a reasonable excuse for any law officer to enter your home.
I have read many comments which state that the couple should have complied with the officer’s request to show their ID; but as shown by others so far, by law, the couple did not have to.
It would have been the OFFICER’S job to try and obtain a warrant, which should have been his next step rather then breaking the door down (which probably wouldn’t have worked anyway, because most judge’s would laugh at the request for such a warrant).
Remember that we have such constitutional protections because of the countless number of fine people who have fought and died for this country. Justifying the officer’s actions is a slap in the face to all those who have fought and died for this country.
the founding fathers of the constitution added a bill of rights to protect americans. This includes the first ammendment which says “right to free speech” and “right to protest in peace”. These people did nothing wrong, most of us would have gone about protesting in a diffrent way but they chose to hang a flag up side down. They werent trying to disrespect america. They were merely stating that bush is ridiculous.
I think it is reasonable to assume that the officer should not have been on their property in the first place. It does not appear that they were creating a nuisance. What happened afterward is all a direct result of the officer interrogating them about their obvious freedom of expression. If the officer wished to tell them that he was offended, then he could have done so and returned to his job of protecting citizens.
My friend and I got treated like we were armed robbers and we were threatened to be put in jail for going 3 miles over the speed limit. Right near TK Trips downtown. We were very respectful and nice and that asshole couldn’t stress the fact enough that he had the power to throw us in jail.
They didn’t search the home or seize anything and the officer had the right to complete the arrest. You can’t resist arrest then run into your house and be protected by the 4th Amendment. If asked for ID you must present it unless you do not have it and this was resolved by the Supreme court relating to the Dudley Hiibel case. Terry stops are a “pat down” and can be done in any location that civilians and police interact including a front porch. The Supreme Court determined that identification was not protected. The Dudley Hiibel legal team brought up Terry Stops. The supreme court disregarded Terry Stops and went to the identification itself. If asked for it you must present it and if you don’t the police can arrest you. If it is found that you do have ID but did not produce it than you get another charge of obstruction of justice.
They resisted arrest and should have complied with the ID request. If they complied than they would be dealing with a citation and been easily vindicated. Now they are screwed!
Two Statesville cops broke into my house and went through my cabinet drawers (no doubt looking for something to arrest me for) NC cops are out of control. We’ll soon be able to use the term SS right next to HomeLand, security ….. my ass
Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office
202 Haywood St.
Asheville, North Carolina 28801
(828) 255-5555
Van Duncan
Sheriff
(828) 250-4503
Buncombe County – District 28
Clerk of Superior Court’s Office (828)232-2600
District Attorney’s Office: DA Ron Moore (828) 232-2500
District Court Judges Office (828) 232-2760
Public Defenders Office (828) 232-2595
Superior Court Judges Office (828) 232-2777
First off,this whole thing is “horrid”. The cop had every right to give a citation and he DOES need ID for that. Would you roll your window up & drive away after big pulled over when the cop said “dl and reg?”, I think not. THEY WERE WRONG! The breaking the door down and rhe rest of it was crossing the line by any standards both legally andmorally. HE WAS WRONG! Secondly, we all know there are “dirty” cops out there and for anyone who say “all cops are dirty”, pay attention b/c if you really need thier help thier WILL be one to help you! Third an most imporantly, OUR MILITARY MEN AND WOMEN!! Anyone who makes any off kiltered comments insulting our troops and thier right to “call the flag thier own” should know and live in the shoes of a military member and thier family. YOU WOULD NEVER SURVIVE! They did not sign thier name on that line to become “jack-booted thugs”. They DO NOT DIE thugs. They do not set out with units of 10-12 and watch 5-7of them die in and ambush while they themselves are wounded, wondering if they will EVER see thier families again or if they will ever be able to drive down thier streets, EVENTHOUGH everyday they have to drive past the house who flies the AMERICAN FLAG upside down (disgracing AMERICA, EVERY MILITARY MEMBER, and EVERY SPOUSE AND CHILD THAT HAS LOST THIER SOLDIER,THIER HERO,THIER MOMMY/DADDY/ HUSAND/WIFE/SON/DAUGHTER) but they want to get home to see thier family. These men and women deserve your respect whether you support Bush or not, or whether you support the military being in Iraq or not, or them in general. They are who will protect your butts if this country is ever invaded, and tey will do it PROUDLY and WILLINGLY. No one will have to ORDER our troops to protect you, or help you. They will defend your right to LIVE no matter who you are. And whoeve in the above posts said “you didn’t ask them to enlist” ATLEAST THEY HAVE THE HONOR AND INTEGRITY! And no I do not serve, my father did, my husband did, my ex-husband did, my grandpas did, and my brother in law did (he was wounded in Iraq,watched his squad die around him as they were ambushed,had to wait for extraction after kicking in an Iraqi families door to get out of the line of fire,when help came he had to ride out of there on top of a tank still being shot at, praying he would live 5 more minutes to see his family. FOR ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE SAID OR WILL SAY ANY AND ALL NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT OUR WONDERFUL MEN & WOMEN OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY. ATLEAST THEY HAVE THE SUPPORT OF GOOD PEOPLE WHO GET OFFENDED AND MAD AS FIRE WHEN PEOPLE LIKE ALL OF YOU SAD SOULS TRY TO PUT THEM DOWN AND CONDEMN THEM FOR SIGNING UP TO DIE FOR EVERYONE ELSE’S RIGHTS AND PROTECT EVERYONE BUT THEMSELVES! THESE PEOPLE SEE AND GO THRU THINGS YOU COULD NEVER STOMACH JUST TO LIVETHRU ANOTHER DAY! THEY DO NOT GET THESE SO CALLED LUXURY BENEFITS AND MEGA MONEY (read about in an above posts)TO SERVE OUR COUNTRY! THEY GET PAID WAY LOWER THAN MOST OF YOU, & OVERTIME?? OH YEAH TRY LIKE UP TO 70-80 HRS IN 1 WK! ONLY THEY DO NOT GET PAID OVERTIME PAY! THEY GET THE SAME AS IF THEY ONLY WORKED 35-40. THIER PAY IS ALWAYS THE SAME! AND YEAH THEY GET FREE MEDICAL, I WAS SAY EVEN TRADE FOR SERVING,BUT I THINK THEY GOT SCREWED IN THIS DEAL! WHAT MAKES LESS SENSE IS THE MILITARY GETS PAID NOTHING TO DO THE MOST IMPORTANT AND DANGEROUS JOB THERE IS, WHILE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WORK AT OUR US AIRPORTS WHO GET PAID MUCH MORE,GET PAID OVERTIME,EVEN GET TO FLY FREE& W/OUTRAGOUS DISCOUNTS,AND THEY DO A VERY IMPORTANT JOB AS WELL- BUT WHAT I WILL SAY FOR THOSE PEOPLE IS IF YOU PUT OUR MILITARY IN THEIR SHOES WE’D ALWAYS HAVE SAFE AIRWAYS! AND (to the one who said our cops are usually ex-military & it’s scary)THANK GOODNESS WE KNOW IT’S EX-MILITARY AND WE KNOW THIER TRAINED AND CAPABLE AND IF WE ARE LUCKY THEY WILL SERVE US AS WELL AS THEY DID IN THE MILITARY. THIS COUNTRY SHOULD BE SO LUCKY. AND FINALLY…(to the one who said he who serves does not have claim to the flag) EVERY SOLDIER WHO SERVES THIS COUNTRY SHOULD HAVE CLAIMTO CAL THE US FLAG “THIERS” BECAUSE IF IT WAS NOT FOR THEM IT WOULD NOT BE HERE! SOLDIERS DEFENDED IT MANY YEARS AGO AND SOLDIERS STILL DEFEND IT, THEREFORE EACH AND EVERY SOLDIER WHO HAS EVER SERVED IN THE US MILITARY, WHETHER IN WARTIME OR NOT, HAS EVERY RIGHT TO CALL EVERY US FLAG THIERS, THEY ARE THE REASON IT FLIES FREELY IN THIS COUNTRY! YOU SHOULD THANK THEM THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY STILL OBSERVE OLD GLORY FLYING HIGH!
ANYHOW…This whole comment game is stupid, freedom of speech is free, THANKS TO EVERY AMERICAN SOLDIER PAST AND PRESENT, but this is about a cop who pushed the envelope to far and a family who disgraced this country and the US FLAG and what it stands for! So what if a National Guardsman called in a complaint. It’s very disheartening to him to see someone tread on his flag when he signed his life away for those same peole! THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE UNITED STATES MILITARY whether they leave comments or not! It’s funny how people turn things into something else, but why do they?! REMEMBER SEPTEMBER 11TH. 2001! REMEMBER HOW SAD AND ENRAGED AT THE SAME TIME EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU WERE, WOULD YOU DARE FLY YOUR FLAG UPSIDE DOWN ON THAT SOMBERING DAY OR THE FOLLOWING DAYS? WOULDN’T YOU FEEL DISGUSTED AT ANYONE WHOM DID? REMEMBER WHO STEPPED UP TO PROTECT YOUR FREEDOM,AND WHO WOULD AGAIN WITHOUT HESITATION OR FEAR IN THIER FACE!
I never comment on public things because I think people escalate them into things they are notIas has been done above) but the more I read the more I was enraged! Anyone with brains can see from the article that the cop was CORRECT until he kicked in the door, he should have called for backup if he thought he had people resisting arrest, but he didn’t and he from te article appears to have been WRONG! The husband and wife were wrong for the flag,atleast they took it down, however they did ignore the cop’s request for ID,they were wrong, and they did a big nono they slammed the door in a cops face, they were from the info in the article WRONG! It’s everyday life, they both have to live with thier decisions. I think they both know they were wrong…if the article is even right!
SO DON’T BLAME OUR US MILITARY! Peace Out!!
First off,this whole thing is “horrid”. The cop had every right to give a citation and he DOES need ID for that. Would you roll your window up & drive away after big pulled over when the cop said “dl and reg?”, I think not. THEY WERE WRONG! The breaking the door down and rhe rest of it was crossing the line by any standards both legally andmorally. HE WAS WRONG! Secondly, we all know there are “dirty” cops out there and for anyone who say “all cops are dirty”, pay attention b/c if you really need thier help thier WILL be one to help you! Third an most imporantly, OUR MILITARY MEN AND WOMEN!! Anyone who makes any off kiltered comments insulting our troops and thier right to “call the flag thier own” should know and live in the shoes of a military member and thier family. YOU WOULD NEVER SURVIVE! They did not sign thier name on that line to become “jack-booted thugs”. They DO NOT DIE thugs. They do not set out with units of 10-12 and watch 5-7of them die in and ambush while they themselves are wounded, wondering if they will EVER see thier families again or if they will ever be able to drive down thier streets, EVENTHOUGH everyday they have to drive past the house who flies the AMERICAN FLAG upside down (disgracing AMERICA, EVERY MILITARY MEMBER, and EVERY SPOUSE AND CHILD THAT HAS LOST THIER SOLDIER,THIER HERO,THIER MOMMY/DADDY/ HUSAND/WIFE/SON/DAUGHTER) but they want to get home to see thier family. These men and women deserve your respect whether you support Bush or not, or whether you support the military being in Iraq or not, or them in general. They are who will protect your butts if this country is ever invaded, and tey will do it PROUDLY and WILLINGLY. No one will have to ORDER our troops to protect you, or help you. They will defend your right to LIVE no matter who you are. And whoeve in the above posts said “you didn’t ask them to enlist” ATLEAST THEY HAVE THE HONOR AND INTEGRITY! And no I do not serve, my father did, my husband did, my ex-husband did, my grandpas did, and my brother in law did (he was wounded in Iraq,watched his squad die around him as they were ambushed,had to wait for extraction after kicking in an Iraqi families door to get out of the line of fire,when help came he had to ride out of there on top of a tank still being shot at, praying he would live 5 more minutes to see his family. FOR ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE SAID OR WILL SAY ANY AND ALL NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT OUR WONDERFUL MEN & WOMEN OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY. ATLEAST THEY HAVE THE SUPPORT OF GOOD PEOPLE WHO GET OFFENDED AND MAD AS FIRE WHEN PEOPLE LIKE ALL OF YOU SAD SOULS TRY TO PUT THEM DOWN AND CONDEMN THEM FOR SIGNING UP TO DIE FOR EVERYONE ELSE’S RIGHTS AND PROTECT EVERYONE BUT THEMSELVES! THESE PEOPLE SEE AND GO THRU THINGS YOU COULD NEVER STOMACH JUST TO LIVETHRU ANOTHER DAY! THEY DO NOT GET THESE SO CALLED LUXURY BENEFITS AND MEGA MONEY (read about in an above posts)TO SERVE OUR COUNTRY! THEY GET PAID WAY LOWER THAN MOST OF YOU, & OVERTIME?? OH YEAH TRY LIKE UP TO 70-80 HRS IN 1 WK! ONLY THEY DO NOT GET PAID OVERTIME PAY! THEY GET THE SAME AS IF THEY ONLY WORKED 35-40. THIER PAY IS ALWAYS THE SAME! AND YEAH THEY GET FREE MEDICAL, I WAS SAY EVEN TRADE FOR SERVING,BUT I THINK THEY GOT SCREWED IN THIS DEAL! WHAT MAKES LESS SENSE IS THE MILITARY GETS PAID NOTHING TO DO THE MOST IMPORTANT AND DANGEROUS JOB THERE IS, WHILE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WORK AT OUR US AIRPORTS WHO GET PAID MUCH MORE,GET PAID OVERTIME,EVEN GET TO FLY FREE& W/OUTRAGOUS DISCOUNTS,AND THEY DO A VERY IMPORTANT JOB AS WELL- BUT WHAT I WILL SAY FOR THOSE PEOPLE IS IF YOU PUT OUR MILITARY IN THEIR SHOES WE’D ALWAYS HAVE SAFE AIRWAYS! AND (to the one who said our cops are usually ex-military & it’s scary)THANK GOODNESS WE KNOW IT’S EX-MILITARY AND WE KNOW THIER TRAINED AND CAPABLE AND IF WE ARE LUCKY THEY WILL SERVE US AS WELL AS THEY DID IN THE MILITARY. THIS COUNTRY SHOULD BE SO LUCKY. AND FINALLY…(to the one who said he who serves does not have claim to the flag) EVERY SOLDIER WHO SERVES THIS COUNTRY SHOULD HAVE CLAIMTO CAL THE US FLAG “THIERS” BECAUSE IF IT WAS NOT FOR THEM IT WOULD NOT BE HERE! SOLDIERS DEFENDED IT MANY YEARS AGO AND SOLDIERS STILL DEFEND IT, THEREFORE EACH AND EVERY SOLDIER WHO HAS EVER SERVED IN THE US MILITARY, WHETHER IN WARTIME OR NOT, HAS EVERY RIGHT TO CALL EVERY US FLAG THIERS, THEY ARE THE REASON IT FLIES FREELY IN THIS COUNTRY! YOU SHOULD THANK THEM THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY STILL OBSERVE OLD GLORY FLYING HIGH!
ANYHOW…This whole comment game is stupid, freedom of speech is free, THANKS TO EVERY AMERICAN SOLDIER PAST AND PRESENT, but this is about a cop who pushed the envelope to far and a family who disgraced this country and the US FLAG and what it stands for! So what if a National Guardsman called in a complaint. It’s very disheartening to him to see someone tread on his flag when he signed his life away for those same peole! THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE UNITED STATES MILITARY whether they leave comments or not! It’s funny how people turn things into something else, but why do they?! REMEMBER SEPTEMBER 11TH. 2001! REMEMBER HOW SAD AND ENRAGED AT THE SAME TIME EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU WERE, WOULD YOU DARE FLY YOUR FLAG UPSIDE DOWN ON THAT SOMBERING DAY OR THE FOLLOWING DAYS? WOULDN’T YOU FEEL DISGUSTED AT ANYONE WHOM DID? REMEMBER WHO STEPPED UP TO PROTECT YOUR FREEDOM,AND WHO WOULD AGAIN WITHOUT HESITATION OR FEAR IN THIER FACE!
I never comment on public things because I think people escalate them into things they are notIas has been done above) but the more I read the more I was enraged! Anyone with brains can see from the article that the cop was CORRECT until he kicked in the door, he should have called for backup if he thought he had people resisting arrest, but he didn’t and he from te article appears to have been WRONG! The husband and wife were wrong for the flag,atleast they took it down, however they did ignore the cop’s request for ID,they were wrong, and they did a big nono they slammed the door in a cops face, they were from the info in the article WRONG! It’s everyday life, they both have to live with thier decisions. I think they both know they were wrong…if the article is even right!
SO DON’T BLAME OUR US MILITARY! Peace Out
luv my military men & women Sorry but this is not at all analogous to a traffic stop. when you are driving you do so under several voluntary restrictions one of which is agreeing to provide your id letting an office know you have the legal right to be in control of that vehicle. Driving is a Privlege, not an inherent right.
You are under NO obligation to provide identification to a police officer whis on your property uninvited. YOU have the RIGHT to request him to LEAVE. Remember that little word RIGHT it makes all the difference in the world. The 4th ammendment guarentees you that RIGHT as yours that the STATE has to acknowledge except under very limited conditions. NONE of which were in play here. The Very law he was trying to cite them for had not only been superceded by US Supreme Court Decisions but by NC Court decisions as well in 1971. The Law he was citing had already been found unlawful! HE was WRONG on the Law, WRONG in his actions and WRONG in the way he approached them. And he will cost the County a right healthy chunk of change because of it.
CYNICL1….
I agree with you that the cop was wrong, but who who would invite a police officer to thier property? Makes no sense. That’s like saying a criminal can ask the cop who shows up at thier house to arrest them to leave because they didn’t invite them. Makesno sense. Doesn’t matter, nothing anyone can say in these comments will change what becomes of any of the 3 citizens who are involved in this, I hope they resolve it and the family gets an apology for the things that went on, as they are deserved one. I just think these people making the comments need to know soldiers before they drag them thru the mud.
Regarding Mike’s comments on 7/27 about Hibel v Sixth Judicial Court, if he had read the decision he would have realized two things. One; the Supreme Court ruled this “identify yourself” only holds true in states that have “stop-and-identify” laws in place. North Carolina does not have such a law. Two, the decision recognized that simply stating one’s name is deemed aedequate identification. The intent of the decision is not to empower police to smash their way into people’s homes in the hope of escalating and provoking a misdemeanor case into a felony or two.
Everyone pay attention to the picture… If it were like an episode of cops or even worse, when there are seriously dirty cops doing the wrong thing, this picture would NOT look like your general arrest. Maybe they couldn’t post the “bad ones” in the paper, but we’ve all seen how they go down and this does not appear to be one of them. Had they just taken the citation, they could have made a better case IN COURT. Any LAW ABIDING citizen would have complied with the officer… Makes you wonder if the Kuhns were not your average citizen as they are painted up to be… You DO have the right to refuse identification and ask an officer to leave if you are doing nothing ILLEGAL, but in the officers mind at that time, they were breaking the law so HE had every RIGHT to be there AND request identification to write the citation.
As far as flying the flag upside down, it is only to be used when there is imminent danger, check out the US flag code. It should never be used as means of political protest for freedom because it is a symbol of FREEDOM and should be hung properly to show that as americans we are free. I agree with what they were originally protesting, but not the means in which they were doing it. They could have posted a billboard in their lawn talking down bush and stating that the country was in distress and may have recieved alot of positive press for it. Instead they deface a flag and start a fight with the county sherriff because they wouldn’t produce identification.
“Application of Texas statute, which makes it a crime to refuse to identify one’s self to a police officer who has lawfully stopped one and requested such information, to detain defendant and require him to identify himself violated the Fourth Amendment where officers lacked any reasonable suspicion to believe that defendant was engaged or had engaged in criminal conduct.” Brown v. Texas, supra.
As former President Harry S. Truman stated on August 8, 1950, “Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasing repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens, and creates a country where everyone lives in fear.”
“Those who won our independence believed that the final end of the State was to make men free to develop their faculties; and that in its government the deliberate forces should prevail over the arbitrary. They valued liberty both as an end and as a means. They believed liberty to be the secret of happiness and courage to be the secret of liberty. They believed that freedom to think as you will and to speak as you think are means indispensable to the discovery and spread of political truth; that without free speech and assembly discussion would be futile; that with them, discussion affords ordinarily adequate protection against the dissemination of noxious doctrine; that the greatest menace to freedom is an inert people; that public discussion is a political duty; and that this should be a fundamental principle of American government…they knew that order cannot be secured merely through fear of punishment for its infraction; that it is hazardous to discourage thought, hope and imagination; that fear breeds repression; that repression breeds hate; that hate menaces stable government; that the path of safety lies in the opportunity to discuss freely supposed grievances and proposed remedies; and that the fitting remedy for evil counsels is good ones.” – Justice Louis Brandeis, Whitney v. California, 274 US at 375
Check out the following website;
http://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston/RealityZone.html
The above website is best viewed with an open mind.
ST
He who knows not and knows not he knows not, He is a fool – Shun him.
He who knows not and knows he knows not, He is simple – Teach him.
He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep – Awaken him.
He who knows and knows that he knows, He is wise – Follow him. – Bruce Lee
If anyone can read the following article and still deduce that the deputy did what was lawful for him to do would in all probability make the grade for becoming a Buncombe County Sheriff’e Deputy;
Duncan regrets flag-desecration incident, is investigating
http://www.mountainx.com/news/2007/duncan_regrets_flag_desecration_incident_is_investigating
The problem, dear folks, is that we have law-enforcement officers running around attempting to enforce laws that they know nothing about! They are not even required to know the law!
If you don’t believe this then ask any defense attorney who has questioned an officer during trial as to his knowledge concerning the laws of our land. Most often the prosecutor will object to this line of questioning stating for the record that the officer is not a lawyer or trained legal technician and therefore is not required to understand even the legal definitions of the words of the laws or statutes that he or she is charged with enforcing. This is the reason that the legal education for lawyers takes 3-6 years and then the bar exam but law-enforcement officers rarely receive more than a week of the legal basics during their P.O.S.T. training which is usually about 10-14 weeks.
I’ve been in court and heard officers testify during traffic cases that they did not know even know the legal definitions of such words as “operator” “motor vehicle” and “license”.
The officer in this case is the only law-breaker and should be punished for his crimes.
“An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right, and only the same right, to use force in defending himself as he would have in repelling any other assault and battery.” State v. Robinson 145 Me. 77,72 Atl. 2d 260, 262 (1950).
“The offense of resisting arrest, both at common law and under statute, presupposes a lawful arrest. It is axiomatic (self-evident) that every person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such case the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self-defense.” State v. Mobley 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100,102 (1954).
In the battle for Liberty,
THE JAILHOUSE LAWYER
http://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston/legalquotes.html
I love the flag and served proudly in the U S Navy.
Doesn’t the Buncombe County Sheriff’s Department know the flag desecration law was found unconstitutional? You can’t enforce a law that is illegal!
This is killing the spirit of Asheville. I have heard of so many people getting treated like this. I had a friend that got arrested b/c someone said they thought they heard a gun shot from his house. This lead to a forceful ( he had bruises) riad and rnasacking of his entire house. ALso who are these people sending out these complaints….There obviously is a conservative forse/ neighborhood watch that wants the free spirit, artistic people of Asheville to leave….
No Shadow – they weren’t resisting arrest because there was no offense that they committed that was arrestable. In fact, they did nothing illegal at all.
Just another example of people pulling a Rodney King…NOT thinking, just reacting…if these folks had shown their ID and complied politely…the cops would have probably left them alone…IF they were still abused by the policemen at this point, with all the witnesses they had on hand they would OWN city hall after they get their day in court…now they will be paying fines and maybe time…when you face off with the government people, you have to think it through…all this “police state” yammering is just stupid…go to a real police state country sometime and you will see this is NOT a police state…that term gets so abused by people that probably are doing many things illegally as much of Asheville’s “citizenry” are wont to do…I don’t think the police have a right to do any of the things they are accused of in this article…it is definitely wrong, and I know there are some cops out there who need to be in jail as inmates, but I’ve seen this kind of thing too often…someone breaks the law, they get a police visit and they blow their tops, because they don’t know the letter of the law, which is every one’s civic duty to know…you don’t have to be a lawyer or a cop to know…and anyone with a brain in their head knows you can’t mess with the flag…right or wrong…you can’t..it has been the law of the land since before most of us were born…seriously, what good comes from flying a flag upside down? a better use of their “activism” would be to write daily editorial letters to all the papers in town, or get a permit to protest downtown and contact the local print and t.v. media and make a real show of it…flying a flag upside down is SILLY unless you are on a ship at sea or in combat and you have a REAL problem…grow up people…there is a real world out there with a REAL war going on…and an ecosystem that is in real danger of threatening the entire populace of the planet…want to do some real good?…petition your civic and government representatives about your favorite issue…and if “The Man” comes calling…be polite and do as you are asked…if “The Man” then breaks the law…you have a right to an attorney…and if you are in the right…you will own them…simple…constitutional…and right…wake up bonehead knee jerk reactionary whiners…there is a REAL world out there
I hope anyone considering visiting the Asheville area for vacation or business understands that your safety is in jeopardy as long as these Hillbilly cops run wild. But what do you expect from the most racist, backwards part of North America. I hope the Asheville Chamber of Commerce and Visitors Bureau have a word with their cops about what’s OK in America and what’s more fitting for the south circa 1955 or maybe 1840.
Stupid, stupid southern people. We should have just kicked you out after you helplessly surrendered in the Civil War after the Union (America) totally destroyed you racist, ignorant peasants and your medieval way of life. Why don’t you just “rise up” one of these days so we can give you another beating?
The last time we left the South, we saw a bumper sticker on a pickup truck that read “Happiness is a northbound Yankee.” After reading this story and its comments I can attest that no truer words have ever been spoken….
sh@dow and all the other that keep bringing up Hiibel, Terry, etc…
First of all, reading a variety of opinions great, your’s included. It might help further the discussion though if you understand where it is before you jump in. Reading what has come before your post and maybe reading a few of the links that others have been kind enough to provide is a good way to do that.
Secondly, the Supreme Court didn’t create a law requiring that identification be provided when an officer asks. Remember that stuff about the three branches of government?
What the court does is to decide questions of law and in the cases that have been cited it was allowing or disallowing portions of existing laws. The court doesn’t pass legislation. The questions raised in those cases were about whether the U.S. Constitution allows certain laws to be passed by states.
If N.C. doesn’t have a law requiring identification to be produced upon demand by a law enforcement officer, then no requirement exists no matter what the U.S. Supreme Court ruled. It seems that there is no such law in N.C. The Supreme Court didn’t in any way create one.
On the other hand, the Supreme Court has declared laws against “desecrating” (which is and odd term anyway since I’m unaware of the existence of a state religion or even a cult that worships the U.S. flag) to be in violation of the Constitution and therefore invalid. The Court does take laws away, but it doesn’t add them where they don’t exist.
All those who don’t believe that we live in a police state – you can go back to sleep now! And for all those that have stated here in this forum that we all should just be obedient slaves and obey the law – have a wonderful walk to the gas chambers. As for me – I do live in the real world and have personally witnessed dozens of lives and families that have been damaged by uneducated, untrained, and lawless law-enforcement.
We were designed to be a nation of laws and not men. Our laws were never intended to allow for arbitrary and capricious actions by those that are charged with enforcing the laws. Even one of our most conservative congressmen and presidential candidates has used the term “police state” in describing the current state of affairs in this country; http://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston/rppolicestate.html
Law enforcement, in general, has become nothing more than armed gangs roaming the streets looking for trouble!
There are literally thousands of laws that you are deemed to know – but as I have correctly stated here – cops are not required to know or even understand the laws that they are charged with enforcing.
Even the Sheriff is stating that things should have been done different – OOOPS. I don’t hear him defending the deputy’s actions – why would you?
Right is right and wrong ain’t nobody and what this deputy did was unlawful and illegal. Why are some of you defending this criminal?
Not everyone that wears a uniform is a hero and not everyone that supposedly violates “THE LAW” is a criminal. Remember Henry David Thoreau was jailed for not paying taxes but now he is required reading in high school. Remember also that Martin Luther King Jr., Ghandi, Jesus and the Apostle Paul were wrongfully deemed to be criminals.
The people in this story were merely exercising their God-given rights of freedom of expression and privacy. There was no damage done to either life or property or to another’s rights SO there was no crime committed and since there was no reasonable articulable suspicion held by the deputy that a crime had been committed there existed no lawful reason for his illegal actions – END OF STORY for those that understand!
In the battle for Liberty,
THE JAILHOUSE LAWYER
http://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston/RealityZone.html
“Secondly, we all know there are “dirty” cops out there and for anyone who say “all cops are dirty”, pay attention b/c if you really need thier help thier WILL be one to help you!”
Yeah, sure they do. Thats why it took them 2 hours to come to an accident in which I was involved. Several of them passed, but none stopped. I had to call 911 THREE TIMES to get someone out.
Eric Walburn, in case you have not noticed you are part of the 28% that think we are doing the right thing. That’s less than 1/3. You need to accept that Republicans have handled governing poorly. Our rights have been eroded (read the poorly named PATRIOT Act). We have attacked a country on false pretenses. We have turned most of the world against us when we had the support of these people after 9/11/01, when Saudis based out of Afghanistan attacked us. While the remaining 72% of us allow free speech, you are more than welcome to leave my country for one more to your liking…one where it is not allowed.
Your ramblings make absolutely no sense. Your spelling is atrocious and your sentence structure is that of a fourth grader. How do you expect anyone to take anything you have to say seriously when you say it in such a poor and uneducated manner?
The bottom line is this. This Neanderthal, Scarborough, was simply doing what he was taught to do under the supervision of our illustrious military leaders in Iraq and Washington D.C. He illegally entered the private home of a United States Citizen, assaulted a United States Citizen and then performed an illegal arrest. The same thing he was charged with doing against Iraqis. Maybe he isn’t aware that he is back home. The last thing any city needs is a police officer that is still off fighting a war in his own mind.
You are obviously incredibly uneducated and have no knowledge of why the wars of the past were even fought in the first place. Please illuminate us with your vast knowledge of foreign policy and tell me exactly when the last time our military fought to protect us against an enemy of the United States. Don’t say the Gulf War; we were fighting for the protection of Kuwaiti interests there. Don’t say Vietnam, the French started that debacle. Korea, I don’t think so. World War II? Please read a real history book. Did you ever stop to question how a bankrupt Germany managed to build a war machine that could roll across Europe like a juggernaut? Not to mention the fact that Germany was certainly not going to roll across the ocean to attack us on our own soil.
You clearly have no concept of American, let alone World, history or the wars the US has been involved in. You make outrageous claims that without these soldiers we wouldn’t even have the flag. Can you please enlighten me as to exactly when our flag was in danger of being taken?
I am a Veteran and I abhor your claim that I or any other Vet alive today has had a single thing to do with the fact that the Stars and Stripes are still flying. You live in an ignorant fantasy world of someone else’s design. In your defense, I guess Ignorance is Bliss!
One more question, that I’m sure you won’t be able to answer. You asked us to remember 9/11 and asked who stepped up to defend our freedom, well please share who you think that was? It certainly wasn’t our military or the perpetrators of the crimes on that day would not still be sitting fat and happy in Washington. How exactly did you think they were defending our “freedom” by invading a sovereign nation who clearly had nothing to do with the events of that day? If our military men and women had any courage at all they would stand up and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against the regime that is currently trying to tear it apart. But no, they continue to be led like lambs to the slaughter in a country that we have no business being in.
One last thing, you have the audacity to say that anybody with brains………. That is a rather bold statement for someone lacking a brain themself to make. No the “cop” wasn’t right at any time. Not even before he kicked the door in as you so ignorantly put forth. No laws were being broken. If you had the intellect of a common house fly perhaps you could do a little research before making false claims about non-existent laws.
Please do everyone a favor and continue to NOT speak out on public issues. It truly shows you for the uneducated fool that you are.
http://www.atfreeforum.com/noaffiliation/viewtopic.php?t=2252&mforum;=noaffiliation
girl who saw the incident talks about it on a forum
What up with this?
It might be interesting to hear from some of the soldiers out there.
http://www.worldgolf.com/blogs/william.wolfrum/2007/07/30/natalie_gulbis_gets_first_win_prepares_f
Direct response: tk and your short-sited view of everything but your own life. City cops are not better.
Disclaimer: Eight year resident of Asheville, NC
Oblique response: Way to go Asheville for bucking the system. The rest of the world probably won’t understand your viewpoint. Not right or wrong, just understand where that guy is coming from. Then sue the pants off him.
Well, the good news is that the Rule of Law still does function is this almost-police-state:
All charges against the Kuhns have been dropped and the Sherriff is investigating his abusive deputy.
The Sherriff himself aknowledged that the ‘desecration’ laws had been overturned in 1971, and since the officer had no legitimate reason to approach the Kuhn’s residence, eveything that ensued after that was improper (fruit from the poisonous tree). Their flag was even returned.
As to the right-wing extremists that posted comments here, I am appalled that you claim to love your Flag and Freedom, yet can call up rage and hatred for anyone that actually excercises any freedoms at all. I have read posts that say things like’ there is no police-state here, but how dare you not obey a police officer no matter how wrong he is’.
this should be the lead off story for the network news.
the only law breakers here are the po po.
who would have thought those who, fought for our rights would be the first to violate those same rights.
got to love stupid people
Maybe as a way of protesting together, we should pick a day and all display an upside down flag to send a message about the state of the country.I’m a veteren with much respect for the flag and the country, there are so many illegal things going on, and the executive branch is using our patriotism against us.
I went to check my dictionary before posting to make sure I was clear about what to “desecrate” something was. My dictionary has it as “to use something sacred in a wrong or bad way”. The word “sacred” is defined as “having to do with religon, or set apart for some religious purpose”.
So we have the State of North Carolina passing a law, which to me reads as religious dogma, that the flags of the United States and North Carolina are sacred objects. Then Sheriff’s Department of Buncombe County making a priestly judgment of what constitutes “desecration”, and enforcing that religious belief regardless of these citizens own religious tenants.
I recall that there is a sizable number of people in this country who’s own religion has very strong language about being required to hold sacred the religious articles of other sects, I think it goes something like “you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them”.
I also recall there is this pesky document that gets brought up now and then that prohibits the establishment of a state religion. However as George Bush has pointed out, that’s just a piece of paper.
You know, not all cops are bad. A lot of them are out there doing a great job, and I’ve been grateful to have them around when I needed them . . . Thanks! Cop bashing is crap.
That said, this guy strikes me as an asshole with a badge – like the dope who shot the family dog on the highway while detaining the wrong person.
Most likely there was a little bad behavior from both parties, and the situation deteriorated due to high emotions. Well, when you take a position defending public safety, you are expected to HAVE BETTER SELF CONTROL than the average idiot you may encounter. Also, it is helpful to know the law and apply it yourself as well as others.
The flag display was obviously a ploy to raise awareness and express opinion, maybe rile some feathers. It wasn’t illegal (just of questionable taste). I really doubt it justified the officer’s actions, which are reprehensible. Just what the good guys need: more bad guys on their side.
I hope the offending officer loses his job. This is not a person I want running about with firearms: he has poor judgement and self-restraint. He has shamed law enforcement, the state of NC, and the reputation of the South by overreacting and denying Americans the very freedoms he should be protecting, whether he agrees or not. Makes me furious.
This event is not an isolated one. Similar circumstances are occuring all over the country. Law enforcement officials are not given the power to interpert the law to suit their own whims, but it is exactly what they are increasingly doing. A price has already been paid allowing these people to express themselves however they see fit. A portion of that price paid is available for any citizen wishing to inquire about it. It is posted for public display along a long black wall in Washington D.C.
As active member of the US Army and an OIF veteran, I’m upset by the reactions of my fellow service members and other so called “freedom lovers” to this violation of both the 1st and 4th amendments. Remember the oath you took.
“I, {insert name here}, do solemnly swear, (or affirm), that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States…”
The 1st Amendment isn’t there to protect popular speech.
here’s something confusing me…
to all the Southern ‘patriots’ who claim to love the american flag so much;
this is still the South, right? and in the South, i thought the Federal government was our sworn enemy. isnt that why you still fly the confederate battle flag? because the US FED is a bunch of corrupt carpetbaggers who stole our slvaes and burned down Atlanta?
so, then, why the “Pride” in that government’s flag?
maybe your not as “Southern” as you think, yankee.
Man that would never happen here in Europe, you lot should take a leaf out of Canada’s book.
Disclaimer: I just Stumbled across this post, and may have missed some information beyond the 1st several posts. I am not a lawyer, or involved in law enforcement in any way.
I have two comments based on what I’ve read here;
1. Seems that the local ordinance did not prohibit hanging the flag upside down, but rather “defacing” it by adding anything. Adding a picture or sign that, even partially, covers the flag(s) may violate the ordinance.
2. Almost every state requires that citizens provide official identification upon the reasonable request of a police officer. The refusal to identify yourself is in itself a crime in many, if not most, jurisdictions.
Seems that the cops acted within the bounds set by the (local) legislature. All the bitching seems to center on the flag being displayed in the classic distress position.
As I read it, that was not the problem at all. You might as well spend your time protesting “dry” areas throughout the country where alcoholic beverages are not permitted.
In our representative republic we, for better or worse, allow local laws to take precedence. Supposedly, these should not infringe on constitutional rights, but they often do.
Do any of the people so inflamed over this case care as much about the cities that have banned the possession of firearms?
Somehow, I don’t think so. Let’s be consistent at least.
The thing that bothers me the most is how this city seems to be so one sided on this issue.
Personally, I think they were wrong to display the flag incorrectly. Something you have a right to do yes, but you wouldn’t yell fire in a movie theater either would you? Attacking the flag or president or whatever comes to mind on hand is too easy. Flying the thing wrong is something high schoolers do. Put some thought and effort into a protest, make a real point, stop complaining and do something to influence change the system.
The deputy was wrong on many accounts that have already been discussed.
They should have shown identification on request instead of turning it into a political quagmire that got them into this mess. It’s SOP to check for warrants, priors etc…not exactly martial law here folks. Sure he was on private property etc…
Now talking about lawsuits….sure, turn the already flawed justice system into a tool for vindication. Just more trash clogging up the court system.
Maybe both parties should just say “we were both horribly wrong and have learned from the experience. We will move on with our lives.”
This sort of thing must be a really frightening ordeal, and it’s sickening to know that you, as an American citizen, you cannot protest in such a harmless and non-violent way. With capitalist governments like yours, and ours (UK), patriotism seems to be a bit of a joke. You’re right, your country’s in a state. So is ours. Cheers Tony and George… Press on and fight for your freedom. Physical violence in the name of patriotism is oppression.
The Kuhns were wronged yes, and that cop needs some help but here is an error on part of the Kuhns that I feel compelled to point out: They weren’t desecrating the American Flag. What they did was hang the flag upside down which is a distress signal. Here is how this situation SHOULD HAVE went down:
Cop drives by the Kuhn residence and sees the flag upside down and walkes up to the door and knocks on it, a Kuhn answers.
Cop: “Good morning, I noticed that you have a flag hanging upside down. Are you in trouble?”
Kuhn: “No Officer, we’re just making a point about how we feel about the direction our nation is headed.”
Cop: “Oh, I see. Well, could you do me a favor and do something different with this flag? An upside-down flag is usually considered an emergancy distress signal, and your display could be confusing to emergency personnel such as myself, fire or rescue.”
Kuhn: “Oh, sorry, you are right. Would it be alright if I covered it in gas and set it on fire?”
Cop: “Yes that would be fine, so long as it doesn’t violate any type of brush-burning ordinance. I don’t know what those ordinances are right off hand, but I’m sure that if you called city hall, they’d be able to tell you what is or isn’t permissable. Remember, Safety First!”
Kuhn: “Thanks officer, you were very helpful. Have a wonderful day, and by all means, be careful out there.”
The Kuhns are freedom leeches. They whine about their “rights” even though the hate the country who gives them. Freedom is not free. The freedoms we have today were bought and paid for by the blood sacrifice of our brave military. The American flag represents that bravery. To fly it in any way that is disrespectful is an abomination. The Kuhns should be ashamed of themselves.
Nam Vet… obviously you don’t know early American history much, and don’t quite understand that it is the Constitution that you and I both pledged our lives to uphold, not the flag.
The ‘country’ doesn’t give rights. Freedom is the right of all men, not given out by a government.
I agree with you that burning or desecrating the flag is distasteful. I would never personally do it. But I would fight you or anyone else to protect the rights of free men to express themselves.
Blind devotion to a State is what leads to fascism or communism. It was illegal to burn the Russian flag. Want to be like them? I’d hope not.
And I’m sorry, but a piece of cloth doesn’t represent the sacrifices of our fellow soldiers. The right of people like the Kuhns to do just what they did in this country represents the sacrifices in blood. Freedom is what we signed up to protect. Not a piece of cloth. Freedom is NOT free. It’s also not rigid. It’s not going to always be pretty.
I’m sorry you’re upset by this, but the Kuhns aren’t the ones that have let down our soldiers lately. Blind obedience is not the answer. Our forefathers were revolutionaries, radicals, protesters. Not lockstep patriots. We kicked the ‘patriots’ OUT of this country. Do you want to go back to that? Should we set up a symbolic kingship? Make it illegal to protest? Would that be freedom?
One of the things that seems to be ignored lately is the fact that while the military does sign up to follow any and all orders from the Civilian leadership, there is an expectation that our blood will not be spilled unless it is absolutely necessary. To do so without that need is a travesty and should not be tolerated.
Jim, you make a lot of assumptions about me. I am not a rigid lock-step supporter of any government. I have the right to dislike people like the Kuhns, and I’d say my criticism of them is right on. People like the Kuhns are spoiled by the peace, safety and freedom here in the US. Our freedom has been paid for by the blood sacrifice of our military. I served in the US Army under the American flag. I served a year in combat in Vietnam.
The flag represents the combined service and sacrifice of our military from the 1770s until the present. The flag also represents traditional American values. “…land of the pilgrim’s pride,land where our fathers died…”. Mom, dad, and apple pie. I suggest that those who can onlyfind fault with our country LEAVE and try some place else. I would bet they’ll be back pretty soon. Try Cuba. Hey, the have “free” health care there. Of course they have no individual freedom and a low standard of living.
If you think freedom is available to all people in the world you are sadly mistaken. Our strong military has insured we remain free. The people of Eastern Europe were the victims of leftwing communist imperialism in the form of the USSR. Tibet was invaded and brutally raped by another leftwing communist country…Red China. The Tibetans were peaceful people who did not have the army to fight the Chinese imperialists off. The Tibetans certainly deserved freedom from tyranny, but that’s not what they got was it? So IT IS the US government and our military that guarantees our freedom.
Your statement about defending the Kuhn’s right to act like disrespectful spoiled brats is so knee-jerk ACLU that it is laughable. So, have you served in our military?
Uh Sean, please don’t say things like, “Man that would never happen here in Europe.” It screams of pretensiousness and it insults everyone in this debate on both sides of the issue. That was a very cheap shot at our nation from someone not in our nation. It’s like you just joined this debate as an excuse to say that you’re more sophisticated than we are. There are things about our country that make it great, and there are some things about our country that make it suck. No person or nation is 100% perfect. Same goes for all of Europe. (And don’t get me wrong, I hate it when Americans take cheap shots at Europeans.) If all you can do to contribute to this debate is say that Europe is better than the US, why don’t you just shut the hell up and stay out of it.
there sits the issue.
===
Ranked in ascending order of sanctity, the ‘Seven “Holy” Virtues’ are:
Chastity (Latin, castitas) (purity, opposes lust, Latin luxuria) —
Courage and boldness. Embracing of moral wholesomeness and achieving purity of thought through education and betterment.
Abstinence (Latin, frenum) (self-control, opposes gluttony, Latin gula) —
Constant mindfulness of others and one’s surroundings; practicing self-control, abstention, and moderation.
Liberality (Latin, liberalitas) (will, generosity, opposes greed, Latin avaritia) —
Generosity. Willingness to give. A nobility of thought or actions.
Diligence (Latin, industria) (ethics, opposes sloth, Latin acedia) —
A zealous and careful nature in one’s actions and work. Decisive work ethic. Budgeting one’s time; monitoring one’s own activities to guard against laziness.
Patience (Latin, patientia) (peace, opposes wrath, Latin ira) —
Forbearance and endurance through moderation. Resolving conflicts peacefully, as opposed to resorting to violence. The ability to forgive; to show mercy to sinners.
Kindness (Latin, humanitas) (satisfaction, opposes envy, Latin invidia) —
Charity, compassion, friendship, and sympathy without prejudice and for its own sake.
Humility (Latin, humilitas) (modesty, opposes pride, Latin superbia) —
Modest behavior, selflessness, and the giving of respect. Giving credit where credit is due; not unfairly glorifying one’s own self.
===
nope, tolerance is not one of the virtues, is it?
Tolerance presumes One’s OWN choices are the Only or Final Solution.
“tolerate” is not a Virtue. in fact, it sounds to me like it flies against several that are…
Spread Love…
… but wear the Glove!
BlueBerry Pick’n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
“Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced”
Public Information Officer
Lt. Randy Sorrells
(828) 250-4473
Billy bob “Uh Sean, please don’t say things like, “Man that would never happen here in Europe.” ”
Unlike the US we have free speech in Europe, rather than the memory of it. We also have a thing called the right to dignity. You’re defending police brutality and home invasion because it’s good ol’ US home invasion. Just remember if it wasn’t for our brave heroes in WWII you’d all be speaking Japanese.
PS You shouldn’t start sentences with “Uh”.
Express your comments here: http://www.buncombecounty.org/governing/depts/Sheriff/pio.htm
or apply for a job :P
The Stars and stripes of corruption
by
The Dead Kennedys
edited by me
Finally got to Washington in the middle of the night
I couldn’t wait
I headed straight for the Capitol Mall
My heart began to pound
Yahoo! It really exists
The American International Pictures logo
I looked up at that Capitol Building
Couldn’t help but wonder why
I felt like saying “Hello, old friend”
Walked up the hill to touch it
Then I unzipped my pants
And pissed on it when nobody was looking
Like a great eternal Klansman
With his two flashing red eyes
Turn around he’s always watching
The Washington monument pricks the sky
With flags like pubic hair ringed ’round the bottom
The symbols of our heritage
Lit up proudly in the night
Somehow fits to see the homeless people
Passed out on the lawn
So this is where it happens
The power games and bribes
All lobbying for a piece of ass
Of the stars and stripes of corruption
Makes me feel so ashamed
To be an American
When we’re too stuck up to learn from our mistakes
starting another Viet Nam
Bush fiddling while Rome burns at home
The Boss says, “You’re laid off. Blame India”
“America’s back,” alright
At the game it plays the worst
Strip mining the world like a slave plantation
No wonder others hate us
And the Hitlers we handpick
To bleed their people dry
For our evil empire
The drug we’re fed
To make us like it
Is God and country with a band
People we know who should know better
Howl, “America rules. Let’s go to war!”
Business scams are what’s worth dying for
Are the terrorists our worst enemy?
We’re destroying ourselves instead
Who cares about our civil rights
As long as I get paid?
The blind Me-Generation
Doesn’t care if life’s a lie
so easily used, so proud to enforce
The stars and stripes of corruption
Let’s bring it all down!
Tell me who’s the real patriots
The Archie Bunker slobs waving flags?
Or the people with the guts to work
For some real change
Rednecks and bombs don’t make us strong
We loot the world, yet we can’t even feed ourselves
Our real test of strength is caring
Not the war toys we sell the world
Just carry on, thankful to be farmed like worms
Old glory for a blanket
As you suck on your thumbs
Real freedom scares you
‘Cos it means responsibility
So you chicken out and threaten me
Saying, “Love it or leave it”
I’ll get beat up if I criticize it
You say you’ll fight to the death
To save your worthless flag
If you want a banana republic that bad
Why don’t you go move to one!
But what can just one of us do?
Against all that money and power
Trying to crush us into roaches?
We don’t destroy society in a day
Until we change ourselves first
From the inside out
We can start by not lying so much
And treating other people like dirt
It’s easy not to base our lives
On how much we can scam
And you know
It feels good to lift that monkey off our backs
I’m thankful I live in a place
Where I can say the things I do
Without being taken out and shot
So I’m on guard against the goons
Trying to take my rights away
We’ve got to rise above the need for cops and laws
Let kids learn communication
Instead of schools pushing competition
How about more art and theater instead of sports?
People will always do drugs
Let’s legalize them
Crime drops when the mob can’t price them
Budget’s in the red?
Let’s tax religion
No one will do it for us
We’ll just have to fix ourselves
Honesty ain’t all that hard
Just put Rambo back inside your pants
Causing trouble for the system is much more fun
Thank you for the toilet paper
But your flag is meaningless to me
Look around, we’re all people
Who needs countries anyway?
Our land, I love it too
I think I love it more than you
I care enough to fight
The stars and stripes of corruption
Let’s bring it all down!
If we don’t try
If we just lie
If we can’t find
A way to do it better than this
Who will?
P.S. I’m retired Army. 25 years of service
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zawEYqfCCJY
A video of Jonas Phillips, a asheville activist who was recently arrested.
Seems to me that Nam Vet has got hold of the wrong end of the stick. He very laudably served in Vietnam to protect the very freedoms that the Kuhns are exercising.
That is what democrary is all about, giving those you disagree with the right to demonstrate their disagreement. You enjoy a reciprocal right of course.
The President wouldn’t recognise democracy even if it jumped up and bit him on the butt.
I read this article and thread with disbelief. Being from North Dakota, a conservative state, the officer would have been dead. NO ONE enters a house without a warrant. I don’t care if it is the President. NO ONE!. Ok, the President thinks he can, but then he has been wrong on a few other issues.
I am a vet, 71-75 WestPac. When government starts to infringe on free speech as they did in the late 60’s and 70’s it is time for radical protest and trips to the ballot box to vote the scoundrels out.
We are at war, but not against any foreign terrorist. The terrorists now reside within, as our country seems to be sliding down the slippery slope of police state.
Benjamin Franklin said it best “Those who give up freedom for security will soon have neither”.
Don’t forget the importance of freedoms.
Thank you.
The American flag represents the sacrifices made by our brave fighting men and women. Sacrifices made so that we continue to have freedom and opportunity. Those that disrespect our flag disrespect our country–mom, dad and apple pie. The Kuhn’s are spoiled brats who have not done a thing to serve this country. All they do is whine. Yankees are good at whining. Real Americans don’t complain, they just do the right thing. Maybe some day the Kuhn’s will grow up and become productive members of our society and learn to respect our Flag.
Nam Vet isn’t much of a Deep Thinker…
*tap* that knee…
**JERK**
good at carrying out orders, not so good @ figuring out the entire purpose of Government, Law, Constitutionality…
I’m sorry, Dude, but a Canadian shouldn’t be *more familiar* with YOUR Constitution & Legal System than a genuine resident Gringo.
Dude, your country is being sold down the RIVER & you’re helping the PNAC members do the paddling.
THAT, alone, should spur you on to figure out why even the local police force has figured out they screwed up.
Spread Love…
… but wear the Glove!
BlueBerry Pick’n
can be found @
ThisCanadian DOT com
“We, two, form a Multitude ~ Ovid.
~~~
“Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced”
Adolf Hitler had a great saying that fits this perfect[What good fortune for governments that people do not think] This incident was wrong because freedom of speach is just what it says FREEDOM !Just because some hired hand does not like what your doing they do not have the right to come to your house and abuse their job ! that is against the constitution and people need to be jumping up and down ,next time it may be your rights that have been abused and you will be thinking what happened WAKE UP PEOPLE AND THINK because facism is showing its ugly head in many ways this is just the start
The right to “not be offended” is not a right. Offense is a choice. Offended? Do something about it, but calling the cops is not a solution. Disturbed about people opposing the government’s tyrranical behavior? Find out why and try to understand, not have them arrested, beaten, and silenced. Funny how dozens of billboard advertisements bombarding us daily on our highways are not considered a “traffic danger”. It is all about content, not “protetion”.
WAKE UP PEOPLE AND THINK! Fifth column traitors are tearing down our country. They trample the flag then they will trample our freedoms. Stand up for American traditional values and join in the pro-flag protest being held at 86 Brevad Road West Asheville this coming Saturday, Sept 8, beginning at 9:00am. Be there or be square!
RESPECT -Nam Vet I respect you for the sacrifice for the time served in Nam ,I have very personal memories of that war and of the thousands of needless deaths because we thought we were fighting for our flag ,if it was so important WHY DID WE LEAVE? good question the answer was American people started thinking that we were sending our people to die for no positive reason so we used our freedom of speach to help influance and failed policy-sound familiar .This conversation is about the same thing we respect our veterans or at least I do but just because you are a veteran or a policeman you cannot take matters into your own hands in which this officer in question did, you went to Nam because you were told you were fighting communism, doesnt this episode in which we are talking about fit the same bill,we as Americans who speak out against our failed and corrupt policies in Iraq are not against the flag but we see shadows of a war called VIET-NAM which we are still suffering from so we need to learn from this experiance because we are now looking facism in the face.Thank you for your service but when a official of any kind comes to your house and kicks down the door to your private property that is WRONG and AGAINST the constitution in which you fought for,so please do not lay blame at the american who was expressing their opinion in a non violant way and take the side of force and anger because you as good as anybody should know the ones behind force will leave you in times of trouble, destroy your life and go on and start a useless fight someplace else .LOVE-PEACE-RESPECT
Thanks for the respect Henge. From the reports I read, the officer tried to get into the Kuhn house only after they turned into the house to avoid arrest. It is not as cut and dried as you make it sound. Not a matter of a heavy-handed nazi storm trooper harrassing a couple of peace loving American citizens. The Kuhn’s, being from up north, are probably used to protesting on the edge, more provoking than protesting. Well here in the South we have more respect for this country’s traditions and the sacrifices of our military. And we do not whine.
So when the Kuhn’s make disrespectful protests defacing our flag, and appear to relish in pissing off the nearby National Guard guys, they deserve what they get…as long as it is within the law. The officer was trying to arrest them and they resisted. He called for backup and finally made the arrest. The Sheriff investigated and found that the officer had not violated departmental policy. He did say the APD should’ve probably handled it…but that is procedural, not law or hard policy. A sworn law enforceent officer has the right to enforce the law any where he sees a violation.
I do not have respect for professional whiners like the Kuhn’s. Especially because they have done nothing to serve our country themselves. They whine about “their rights”, yet they have not contributed to keeping those rights available. They are takers, not givers. I have no problem with respectful, peaceful protest. But in-your-face provocation like the Kuhn’s do is not respectful. People like them just stick a big middle finger in the face of the rest of us. No respect earned there. I would counsel the Kuhn’s to grow up. Evidently they are still in their rebelious teenage years.
psst.
THE COP DIDN’T HAVE A WARRANT.
he was acting on his *personal preferences” … which I suppose is a close to LEGAL as AmeriKans are gonna get these days.
I suppose he *should* have just taser’d them & waterboarded the Kuhns until they confessed their sins?
enjoy your nation.
you get what you deserve.
===
version inscribed at the Fascism is FUN!!“
BlueBerry Pick’n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
“Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced”
Hey Sean, you kind of missed my point about the comment that I made to you earlier. You DO have as many dipshit leaders in Europe as we do here. Also, NEVER in any of my posts did I defend the actions of the police officer. Here is your quote: “You’re defending police brutality and home invasion because it’s good ol’ US home invasion.” Please send me a quote where I did. And if I DID defend the officer, where do you get off assuming my reason would be “because it’s good ol’ US home invasion?” We do have free speech here. Is the upside down flag still up? Probably. Are the Kuhns in jail? No. Now it looks like the cop could be in some hot water. Guys, we are in trouble but we’re not quite a facist dictatorship yet. A cop acting like a jerk doesn’t make the entire nation facist. We’re headed down a dark path but I can still say, “George Bush is an A-Hole” without getting beat up or put in jail. And before you militant lefties out there start sending in your hateful comments to me, know this: I hate our administration, I never have nor ever plan to vote Republican, and I have a general distaste for police officers. Not because of what their job is, but because that profession has a tendancy to attract a lot of people with a bully mentality. Ok guys did you read that? Good. So now you know I think what that cop did was deplorable. Now that we got that out of the way, Sean, you are a childish whiner with nothing interesting to say. The European theater of WWII was won by the Soviet Union, Great Britian and the US. The Pacific Theater was pretty much won by the US, so your little Japanese comment is, well, pretty stupid. So whatever country you are from, no one has ever acted like a jerk there before? What country are you from anyway, maybe I could dig up some dirt to throw into YOUR face.
PS. You shouldn’t start sentances with “Man”.
Robert:
gee, I’m glad to see Amerikans remember that anybody else participated in WWII.
seeing that you couldn’t pull your thumbs out for Darfur or Rwanda… I can’t figure out what purpose the US government performs for anybody… except multi-national pirates.
grammar police, too, eh?
If the US citizens can’t remember how many nations contributed to Allied Forces, maybe NATO should completely pull out of supporting your hostage-taking of Iraq & Afghanistan…?
maybe US forces can try taking bullets for corporations in Halmand province instead of throwing Canadians & other NATO forces into the fray for your war crimes.
CBC & Harper rally more ‘stay the course’ horseshit: “Harper says no quick vote on Afghanistan without support for new mandate”
http://thiscanadian.typepad.com/this_canadian/2007/09/cbc-harper-rall.html
or what are we DOING there?: “Time for a strategic re-think in Afghanistan?”
http://thiscanadian.typepad.com/this_canadian/2007/09/ctvca-time-for-.html
BlueBerry Pick’n
can be found @
ThisCanadian.com
“Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced”
Another point I’d like to add to you all on BOTH sides of the issue: Let me make an analogy using the PH scale for testing acids and bases. Lets say that 10 is politically extreme right and -10 is polically extreme left. 0 is right in the middle. I would personally give myself -3 to -5 depending on my mood. The problems are the 10s and the -10s. Here is what they have in common: Both express their opinions as scientific fact, both express their opinions without any respect or acknowledgement of the other side, both cry and moan when they don’t get their way, both are uncompromising, both provoke and pick fights with the other then accuse the OTHER for starting the fight when they get a reaction, both are extremely obnoxious, both use straw man arguements and both are very selfish. Nam Vet and Blueberry Pick’n, you are BOTH THE SAME EXACT KIND OF PERSON.
Great points Robert. There is nothing worse than trying to have a “conversation” with a true believer.
And Sean, to suggest that “Europeans” (which ones exactly?) have free speech while us lowly Amerikans do not, is not just factually wrong, but asinine. Please name one European Constitution that contains the equivalent of our 1st amendment? Even the over-arching EU Convention on Human Rights does not protect what most Americans would consider basic rights, like the right to profess unpopular and even racist views.
Hey Blueberry, as for your “grammer police” comment, I was getting back at Sean. If you see Sean’s post, you will see that he (or she) said that I shouldn’t start a sentance with “Uh”. So I countered and said you shouldn’t start a sentence with “Man”. He/She corrected me so I corrected he/she back. Rwanda and Darfur? EVERYBODY turned their back on Rwanda, not just us. Same thing with Darfur. If you have a problem with Canada being in Afghanistan then you need to go beat up on the Canadian government for that, not ours. I have mixed feelings on Afghanistan and I absolutely hate the war in Iraq and didn’t like it from the start. But look at your last post. See what you did there? You complimented me for knowing that the US wasn’t the only country in WWII, but then attacked me with the “grammer police” comment not knowing where it was coming from, so I had to explain it to you. The Darfur and Rwanda comment? Wow, what your email started off nice but was actually just an excuse to throw a backhanded compliment at me. It’s like saying to a woman, “Hey, that dress really makes you look lovely, considering how fat you are” Thanks for nothing. You know, Blueberry, I can’t stand what our government is doing. I can’t stand oil companies. I can’t stand this war in Iraq. But you know what I hate worse? People like you who go around picking fights and being nasty and rude to people when THEY DAMN WELL THINK THE SAME WAY YOU DO but without the F-you attitude that comes with being a “-10” (see my 1:00 post).
PS. What would you have us do in Darfur anyway? If we do nothing everyone will say we don’t care. If we send military to fight off the bad guys, we’ll be called out for being imperialist. If we try to negotiate with these guys, we’ll be accused of negotiating with terrorists. So, Blueberry, since you’re such an expert, what needs to be done with Darfur. And please give an answer as to what the WHOLE WORLD can do to rescue Darfur, not just what the US can do.
PSST Blueberryhead. He didn’t need a warrant. He investigated a reported violation of the flag desecration ordinance. When he found that there was indeed a violation, he tried to make an arrest. The Kuhn’s turned and ran into their house. He pursued, just doing his job. He called for backup from APD, got it, and arrested the “male” half of the Kuhn’s after he finally quit running away. Lot’s of courage there for the Kuhn “male”, eh?
So PSST, Blueberryhead, resisting arrest is an offense. The Sheriff, who is an elected official, chose not to press charges, but he did have grounds.
People like you whine about your rights here. Go to Cuba and see what kind of rights you get.
And if you think this country is so fascist, try another place for a while. Hey, they have free healthcare in Cuba. Of course you cannot protest or criticize the government there. If you do, you are lucky if they just throw you in prison. They often take you away and you “disappear”.
Nam Vet,
you should really try and expand your repertoire. The “you should go live in Cuba and get free health care” has been played out since the 3rd or 4th time you used it.
In Blueberry’s defense, he or she is, in fact, Canadian, so there is a different perspective. I played around on thiscanadian.typepad.com and well, it’s not a bad site. Nam Vet, you are right on the warrant thing. If you are a police officer in the US and you see a crack dealer shoot some kid in the face and then run into a house, you don’t need a warrant to run in after them. And we do have our rights here. I’ve been to protests over the Iraq war and I’ve never seen any cops “lose it” and drag people off to jail. I have seen it in media reports though but you really have to be there to understand why some kids get hauled off. Look at the WTO protests. They show people being dragged off by cops, but some of those kids use a valid protest as an opportunity to smash store windows and light cars on fire and it tarnishes the image of the honest protesters. It doesn’t bother me when cops club those particular jackasses. I don’t need anyone on my side making me look bad. Nam Vet, god bless you for your service to our country, my dad is also a “Nam Vet” (combat wounded). However you do not own the opinions of everyone else around when it comes to the American Flag. It is their business, not yours. You have the right to hate America if you are an American. Not that I’m saying that the Kuhn’s do. (also, I don’t believe that the Kuhn’s should have hung the flag upside down, but for the reason of doing that is a distress symbol. Dig up my previous post about confusing emergency service personnel.) Blueberry, you don’t own the opinions of everyone in Canada just because you run a leftist Canadian website. Guys, make some friends on the other side. You don’t have to surround yourself with people who think the same way you do. Toss it up a bit. Blueberry, not every “AmeriKan” voted for Bush. But I have friends who love him. Know what? We’re still friends despite our political differences. Generalizing 300 million people (and myself)doesn’t really work and that’s how you managed to piss me off. But you know what? Go ahead and do it, it’s your right and it’s my right not to acknowledge it. Just remember that we’re not all jerks down here and that goes for everyone on both sides of the fence.
here’s an interesting link (also from canada) about three Police Infiltrators at a large protest up there two weeks ago. (Bush was meeting with candaian and mexican leaders to discuss “matters they can’t disclose”) They dressed up like “anarchists”, one with a large rock in hand, and tried to incite a riot with police, before actual protestors called them out, singled them out, and unmasked at least one. it’s quite comical, actually. they are obviously cops.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0bblmNY316k
the police ‘arrested’ the infiltratos, with no paper trail to show who they were.
a week later, the police admitted they were fellow officers. no corrective action has been taken yet
what’s the point? Robert, you speak of befreinding the ‘other side’ how often does that happen from your perspective? how often do you see the point of ‘protesters’ who claim that police break their rights as Citizens? who’s ‘side’ would you come down on this particular case? And how often do you think these infiltration tactics are used by police to ‘justify’ the brutal arrest techniques they employ?
have you ever seen a person have pepper-spray applied to their eyes with a cue-tip? it’s not pretty. I suggest the “Miami Model” as a documentary (about the IMF protests in 2003 in miami) showing this happening to American Citizens exercising their right to assemble, speech, etc. do you ever ‘side’ with them? or is that too simple?
these are the kinds of tactics used today to de-mobilize any group attempting to question the direction of multi-nation caplitalism and the forces that represent it. (including the Kuhn’s)
how long will comfortable, middle class folks like yourselves continue to deny the actual state of the world we live in?
Scarborough violated regulation by enforcing an outdated, unconstitutional law, without seeking any input from his superiors. this was not a violent ‘crime’, and he had no need to break the kuhn’s window or chase him around his home. he was not a drug dealer who just shot someone in the face. he hung a flag upside down, a form a political speech upheld by the supreme court. or do we not honor them any more, like cuba?
this is okay in countries that you mention like Cuba, i suppose, but in the US i thought we were supposed to respect an individual citizens right to peaceful protest in his own home.
get over *yourselves* and your yahoo, Die Hard John Wayne sense of politics…. scraborough was in the wrong, he broke the law and disrespected his uniform by not protecting the constitution he is sworn to uphold. when police act like soldiers, you live in a police state.
it truly is that simple. it just hasnt knocked on YOUR door yet, asking ‘papers please?”
Sonjia, you proved my point of the post I sent in at 1:00 yesterday. Allow me to repost it: [Another point I’d like to add to you all on BOTH sides of the issue: Let me make an analogy using the PH scale for testing acids and bases. Lets say that 10 is politically extreme right and -10 is polically extreme left. 0 is right in the middle. I would personally give myself -3 to -5 depending on my mood. The problems are the 10s and the -10s. Here is what they have in common: Both express their opinions as scientific fact, both express their opinions without any respect or acknowledgement of the other side, both cry and moan when they don’t get their way, both are uncompromising, both provoke and pick fights with the other then accuse the OTHER for starting the fight when they get a reaction, both are extremely obnoxious, both use straw man arguements and both are very selfish.] The protest you mention with the decoy-anarchists who were actually cops, yeah I know this happens. So are you saying that some protesters NEVER get out of control? I’ve seen that happen too. And yeah, I know that cops beat up on people who don’t deserve it. Let me requote what I wrote in the post I made that solicited your reply: “They show people being dragged off by cops, but some of those kids use a valid protest as an opportunity to smash store windows and light cars on fire and it tarnishes the image of the honest protesters. It doesn’t bother me when cops club those particular jackasses. I don’t need anyone on my side making me look bad.” See what I said about the honest protesters? You totally proved my point about straw man arguments. Here is the official “wikipedia” defintion of a straw man argument: “A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To “set up a straw man” or “set up a straw man argument” is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent.” That is what you just did to me. I have repeatedly stated my political positions and you and Blueberry Pickin’ have picked out the parts that you didn’t like, twisted what I’ve said, then amplified them to justify your arguement. 1. I don’t have a John Wayne sense of politics, never said I did nor have I given any hint that I did. 2. I have never justified what the cop did, but yes, I am guilty of using a horrible analogy about the crack dealer when trying to talk about warrants and the law. 3. I never said ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT CUBA! NAM VET DID! Also, I’m going to quote your last post here, “how long will comfortable, middle class folks like yourselves continue to deny the actual state of the world we live in?” I am not middle class. I work 60 hours a week and still have trouble making ends meet. Also, when have I denied the actual state of the world we live in? Let me quote myself from yesterday, “We’re headed down a dark path but I can still say, “George Bush is an A-Hole” without getting beat up or put in jail. And before you militant lefties out there start sending in your hateful comments to me, know this: I hate our administration, I never have nor ever plan to vote Republican, and I have a general distaste for police officers.” I don’t think that we’re quite the facist dictatorship that Mussolini ran, but doens’t what I say show that I’m not exactly in a state of denial either? Remember, I’m on your side, but I am generally more critical of people on my side because I don’t want anyone on my side ruining the argument when they let emotion guide every they say without any hint of logic. Sonjia, you sound just as militant as that cop but about different things. Please read what I write in it’s entirety and don’t pick out the parts you don’t like, make up some additional information about me that you don’t even know and aren’t even true and then throw it in my face. And yeah, I have been harrassed by cops before, and other times I have found them to be quite helpful. It depends on the cop I guess.
So basically what I’m saying is, it’s not your politics that are the problem, it’s your personalities that suck.
After reading the comments from the Bushbots and other various neo/cons and other NAZIS I see now why God made cancer.
There is a frightening trend in this country. Our civilian police force is being taken over by para-military types.
If that deputy had broken down my door he would have left in a body bag.
Citizens cannot and should not depend on the govt to protect your rights. Right now our government is out of control and as citizens we need to flush out the Nazi punks
Here’s a thought. The Kuhns are not criminals but they got dragged out of their house by a storm trooper. There is a real criminal in the whitehouse who should be dragged out, tried in a court of law for treason and if found guilty he should be thwon in jail or executed.
I’d prefer reading in my native language, because my knowledge of your languange is no so well. But it was interesting!
This article was extremely scary to me. Not too long ago I watched a documentary called America: From Freedom to Fascism by Aaron Russo (who recently passed away), which talks about the exact issues that took place in this incident here with this family. I watched it (the documentary) while being greatly affected by its content, but also formed some sceptisism, which is always healthy to have. But then a friend emailed me this article last night and when I read it it blew my mind! This were the exact thing Mr. Russo was talking about both in his documentary and in the private interviews that are posted on freedomtofascism.com. I STRONGLY suggest to everyone to see both the movie and the interviews. You can watch the entire movie for free on google. Just type in the name and choose the move. It’ll blow your mind! But people, these “incidents” are just the beginning of what’s to come!!! America needs to wake up and shake up this corrupt goverment….NOW!! ASAP! We are running out of time and I hope you intelligent people reading the news as well as this input will realize on your own that neither Republicans nor Democrats or the Independent parties are going to save this country. It is called coup d’Ta! It’s happened in other countries worldwide when their citizens grew tired of their goverments. I know it sounds way extreme and impossible, but going to the moon seemed impossible too and we did it! I wish the young people would stop listening to hip hop and wake up and realize that their dreams and futures are being stolen from them. But we can act, by educating ourselves and uniting. Freedom is a God given right to every living creature in this world. That’s my philosophy.
Thomas, stop being a pain. You and others have blown this way out of proportion. If you travel to Cuba you will find real fascism. If you express an opinion in Cuba that is not supportive of that totalitarian government, you will be put into jail…if you’re lucky. We do not have fascism in this country. The officer was mistaken, his boss the Sheriff corrected him. Nuff said. However I am one of those smaltzy old patriots who does not like our flag disrespected. And I have the right to continue to dislike flag desecrators. People have risk life and limb to keep us free. I revere the American flag as a symbol of those sacrifices.
sorry to say buddy but this flag you fought for and your buddies died for stands for oppresion manipulation, deciet and evil. Oh well we all make mistakes in our youth.
Landlord refuses to let man fly distress flag
http://www.the-dispatch.com/article/20071215/NEWS/712150321
I am Mr. Welborn. Here is what happen to me!
Landlord refuses to let man fly distress flag
Artical
http://www.the-dispatch.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071215/NEWS/712150321/1005
Forums chat
http://forums.the-dispatch.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9071076365/m/1211012976/p/6
Way to go BCSD!!!!
i like how your self-importance is higher when your a serving officer of your country, take a note from your australian fellows, you are allowed to serve and have a BRAIN for yourself.
we are in distress, this is lucid proof-
A semi-democratic nation turning into what it hated, what it fought against, we we’re founded upon the disgust that americans had for tyranny. Now we are a fascist,police state empire modeled on germany of the 30’s, why?
Where are the comments that I keep receiving in my email?
freedom won through violence or freud is no freedom at all.
United States Flag Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8, (g). The flag should never have placed upon it, nor any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
The couple in the story, probably should not have been arrested and taken to jail. However, what was done, was disrespectful to our flag.
I have been following stories like this from all over this country, and find it deeply disturbing that it’s happening 15 minutes from my own home. I have been looking to get involved in activism, because this country is in serious trouble. Our Constitution is under attack, and most Americans are oblivious. I’m surprised to find out that NC has an absurd flag desecration law… whatever happened to free speech. The flag is a symbol, what we should be protecting is our Rights! Without them our flag means nothing. I believe all of us who are informed should be spreading the word to those who are not. Few people know that they do not have to provide their ID at an officer’s request unless they’re being arrested or their operating a vehicle. It’s So much like Nazi Germany now “Your Papers Please”. Oh and how do you fellow North Carolinians like your new RFID driver’s licenses. We were the first in flight AND the first to receive the National ID! I don’t know about you guys, but I was never told that my face was being scanned and placed into a database.
http://wrthwryhw.com/
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Where were all the Chik-Fil-A supporting champions of free speech during all this?
Greetings, neat site you have got at this time there.
How do you know Joe Biden is a neoliberal? He’s always talking about his one black friend.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCysNUlujH2wguCjjSoO-n7w?view_as=subscriber