Fonda: Women must claim their voices

Actress, author and activist Jane Fonda urged women attending the first Time for Our Power! Conference in Asheville to claim their voice as strong women and “own” their leadership abilities.

Fonda’s focus: Woman can change the world, but they must lay claim to their roles as leaders, Jane Fonda told Time for Our Power! conference attendees. Photo By Jason Sandford

Through leadership qualities such as vision, empathy, courage and passion, women can “become the change we seek,” Fonda said in her keynote address to about 300 women gathered at Thomas Wolfe Auditorium last Saturday.

Fonda’s talk focused on women’s ability to lead, while also touching on everything from her opinion of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama to what she learned from her activism during the Vietnam War.

Men and women work differently in leadership roles, Fonda said, with men tending toward a top-down approach while women favor a “circular approach” that’s more inclusive. “It’s not that women are morally superior to men, it’s that they don’t have their masculinity to prove.”

Fonda, 70, said she saw that firsthand in her early experience with antiwar activism. She said that President Lyndon B. Johnson admitted later that he was afraid of being seen as an “unmanly man” for pulling out of Vietnam. “No wonder those guys are so afraid, and continue to be afraid, of premature evacuation,” Fonda said to a round of applause.

Here’s Fonda on other topics:

• On Obama: “For the first time, the Democratic candidate is a man who has the capacity for feminist leadership.”

• On her activism in Vietnam: “I made a terrible mistake in North Vietnam”—but Fonda said she learned from the episode. “You never want to discount the criticisms.”

• On abortion: “Reproductive choice is not about the fetus at all. It’s just the most recent strategy to deny us a fundamental human right. … It’s an issue of power, not an issue of the fetus.”

• On marriage: “I’ve been married to three very different men, and all have been wounded by masculinity.”

In the end, Fonda told the group to lay claim to their leadership strengths and support one another. The results can shake the world, just as tectonic changes can reshape the globe, she said: “I’m here to encourage you to be volcanoes.”

The conference, organized by Maureen McDonnell, who works as a conference coordinator, and Lisa Watters and Patty Levesque, both Mountain Xpress staffers, included three days of talks and workshops on topics ranging from health care and business to environmental issues and the arts. The group is considering making the conference an annual event.

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72 thoughts on “Fonda: Women must claim their voices

  1. Hey, I’ll be glad to forgive her when she genuinely apologizes.

    As to Golden Pond, I love Henry Fonda and Katherine Hepburn, they were real Americans… and Peter ain’t all that bad …. 3 outa 4 from one family’s pretty good.

  2. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Jason
    1. Ralph’s definition of a good American is someone who blindly obeys government, never questions the status quo and pays “HIS TAXS”. As if a tax can be processed.
    2. Thinks the Federal Reserve is a Federal Bank.
    3. Thinks that Federal income tax goes to support and build roads and infra structure.
    4. Thinks that Jesus is a card carrying Republican
    5. Engauges in the idolatrous flying of American war flags on his SUV.
    6. Thinks the Police are wonderful and believes they are public officials rather than agents/ employees of a corporation.
    7. Thinks those that quote the constitution are wacko patriot domestic terrorists.
    8. Views and thinks of all people as being either liberal or conservative.
    9. Gets excited when the rockets red glare on innocent people in the mid east, because he thinks GOD has mandated that Arabs must die in a holy war, so Israel can be protected.
    10. Thinks that Bush’s mid east policy will bring about the apocalypse, so he can get Raptured and all the liberals will LEFT BEHIND
    11. Thinks that 2 planes really brought down 3 towers
    12.Doesn’t mind being searched and monitored and have his naked body entered into an airport x-ray machine and then downloaded to the NSA’s mainframes by the government, because Big Brother will protect him from the boogie man/ CIA OPERATIVE Bin Laden, who incidently died of kidney failure
    13. Thinks that God has sanctioned all government, even though government he thinks, will be the final mechanism by which some antichrist will bio implant all liberals with a chip the MARK OF THE BEAST, while he flies away in the rapture express to Disney land
    14. Recites the pledge of allegiance, which was written by a socialist and was originally recited by using the Bellamy salute, which was later incorporated by Adolph Hitler into the famous Sieg Hiel.
    15. Probably watches T.B.N., belongs to some mega 501c3 prosperity cult, government run corporate church.
    16. Thinks FDR and Lincoln were great
    17. Thinks that there are such things as Christian lawyers.
    18. Burns Dixie Chicks CDs at the local Southern Baptist cult churchs’s Sunday go to eatin Meetings, while praying to republican Jesus and eating Kentucky Fried Chicken.
    19. Thinks that Bush is a good Christian man rather than a member of the Skull and Bones Satanic cult from Yale

    I think you get the picture Jason, you and Jane Fonda are more American that Roberts, Travelah and his whole bunch of rabid, neocon, imposters.
    Feel sorry for them Jason, unlike their guru, the hillbilly, heroin, popin, anti man, called Lush Dimbo, they have their whole brain tied behind their back.

  3. JDNC

    Dang Doc .. such a hater. So incredibly bitter. Does the US really suck that bad? I’ve been all over the world and haven’t found any place better than here yet. Take a big deep breath and you might feel less anxious. It really works.

  4. david

    The funny thing, ralph, is your diatribes are usually just as off the reservation. Just maybe in a different direction. How’s that for a reflection for ya?

  5. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    jdnc What about the U.S. Works??
    Are you living on Mars?
    There is no constituion therefore no law. Are you crazy? Do you listen to Rush also?

  6. who

    Had to get one more in. More old school anti-man b.s. feminism from Fonda. I have been hearing that kind of crap for years. Women more circular than men? C’mon. Equal rights -yes. Womens’rights – yes. That whole conference was so….70’s. I would like to think that many men and women have moved on from that silly rhetoric.

  7. david, I believe you are wrong and certainly my postings are usually within at least a light year or two of the topic at hand, unlike Dr. A’s which are not even in the same galaxy, and I generally do not gratuitously insult people as Dr. A. does.

    In fact, look up ‘total ignorance of netiquette’ and you’ll see Dr. A’s photo.

    and I have a lot less typos than Dr. A.

    and I smell better.

    dogs like me but nip at his heals.

    Jane Fonda woulda really dig me but she went to Vietnam.

    YOU SEE… unlike Dr. A., I have a sense of humor.

  8. William P Miller

    Ralph said: “Hey, I’ll be glad to forgive her when she genuinely apologizes.

    As to Golden Pond, I love Henry Fonda and Katherine Hepburn, they were real Americans… and Peter ain’t all that bad …. 3 outa 4 from one family’s pretty good.”

    I agree Ralph. When and if she SINCERELY apologizes, I will forgive her. Same with John Kerry.

    Actually, Henry Fonda is a patriot and was quite upset by his daughter’s traitorous activites in North Vietnam.

  9. I should say ‘but she went to North Vietnam instead of South.’

    and note how I neatly got us back on topic but, of course, Dr. A. with go off on one of his lonely twisted tangents again and we’ll all be swimming in unnecessary vitriol and ad hominem attacks.

    and far too many typos from someone who claims to be an educated doctor … he cannot even spell ‘Constitution’ despite continued misinterpretations of it.

    Dr. A.’s grammar, also, shows he thinks the Chicago Book of Style is a clothing catalog.

    Jane Fonda — her lack of patriotism aside — is more literate than Dr. A.

  10. nuvue

    Hey Doc Anti, where ya been? Did you check out Belize?
    I really think you may like it there, warm all year, great food and really genuinely nice folks….I liked the mountain area better than the coastal

  11. Rob Close

    i haven’t been “all around the world”…but having spend some time in europe, i feel comfortable stating that Switzerland is a MUCH better/more direct/real democracy than the US.

    the water is clean, the people taken care of, and…well, cops were still cops (i was there an hour before i got FULLY searched – for the reason of “i was in the park” – akin to cops swarming pritchard park and doing full body searches of EVERYONE) – but hey, no place is perfect, the world is full of jerks, 2 planes can’t destroy 3 towers (wow ok i do agree with Dr. A there), and patriotism is a tool.

  12. William P Miller

    Rob, if Switzerland is so much better than here, why don’t you move there? Really? I am not one who believes Europe of Canada is superior to the US. One point some miss is that because the US is the protector in the West, several of the protectees can spend their tax money on socialism, etc, rather than defense. Without the US, Canada & Europe would have been USSR satellites LONG AGO.

  13. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Before you howl with anal-retentive laughter Ralph that is literary
    Defused your anal-retentive rhetoric didn’t I?

  14. I will agree, Dr. A. that you are the Mount Everest of pomposity, no one else comes close.

    No one else wants to.

    You are a troll hijacking threads, disregarding netiquette, trampling on the rights of others by greatly reducing the enjoyment and utility of these forums. On many boards, you would have been long since banished into the cold, dark woods of deepest cyberspace.

    It is time the moderator stepped in here.

  15. and by the way, Dr. A., do not make claims that can easily be checked… such as you are a more prolific poster…

    I have 691 posts, you’ve only done 197.

    Although I readily admit, overall, yours made a lot less sense.

    Where’s the moderator?

  16. William P Miller

    Ralph: “I will agree, Dr. A. that you are the Mount Everest of pomposity, no one else comes close.

    No one else wants to.

    You are a troll hijacking threads, disregarding netiquette, trampling on the rights of others by greatly reducing the enjoyment and utility of these forums. On many boards, you would have been long since banished into the cold, dark woods of deepest cyberspace.

    It is time the moderator stepped in here.”

    Very well said Ralph!

    Dr Anti…whatever. You are almost always good for a laugh, but your name calling is getting old. You can get your points across without the insults. I know you can. So fix that will you?

    Back on thread, Jane Fonda needs to hold a press conference and SINCERELY apologize for her traitorous behaviour during the Vietnam War. If she isn’t clear on what Vietnam veterans want to hear from her, perhaps she should invite some of them over to her mansion for a sit-down discussion.

  17. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Miller
    I wonder if virulent racism, geocentric nationalism and half-baked historicism are bad net etiquette too? Coupled with a double-minded nature.
    You say you do not like big government, yet you support out of control ALE agents, who are neither government officials, nor officers, with civil commissions, nor, who have office’s appointed and created by the State legislature.
    Agents are not government; they are paid mercenaries, acting under color of law, simulating lawful government.

    You are known by the company you keep, it does not surprise me in the least, that Ralph shadows and parrots you to a tee. Both of you are walking contradictions, partly truth and partly fiction

    As far as Jane Fonda is concerned, she has apologized in the past.
    Incidentally, is Jane Fonda more of a traitor, than the fascist government who sent 53,000 men, IN VAIN, to their deaths in Vietnam, for an undeclared, unconstitutional war, I.E. unauthorized police action, that ended up polarizing this country into a myriad of disenfranchised political factions , from which we have never recovered!

    Funny how history repeats it self again, with the Iraq quagmire of lies and deceit, in a military action based on fraud, in which flag waving neocon simpletons support with glee, lead by the corporate media cheerleaders like Limbaugh.. Why don’t we have more Jane Fonda’s at this point in time?

    The American military is destroying and contaminating the entire mid east, in an act of genocide, induced, by the rampant use of Depleted Uranium, with a 4.5 million year half-life.

    Does not surprise me in the least, that you and your neocon friend Ralph support this death and destruction, in the name of mindless nationalism and democracy. As Plato said, democracy is the second worst form of government on the planet.

    Incidentally Miller, what ever happened to the republic, looks like we didn’t keep it after all, Its hard to keep a republic when mindless twits with a distorted sense of nationalistic imperialism, support adventurerisitic campaigns of genocide and tyranny, in the name of pseudo conservatism, the GRAND OLD PARTY and war profits.

    Look around Miller, both you and Ralph are held in as much distain as me. I might be rude, that can be fixed, can your recalcitrant, sanctimonious attitude, foibles and lack of knowledge be fixed? Answer, not with the blinders that both you and Ralph wear.
    Jane Fonda next to the two of you, looks at least sincere. WAKE UP The wheat is being separated from the chaff, you do not want to be burned up in the bonfire of truth coming to this planet real soon.

  18. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    P.S. Miller, your comments to Rob Close about the U.S. not being a socialist county are patently false.
    The definition of classical socialism is any nation, which has a graduated income tax of more than 30 %.

    Since you work from January to June, for an agency called the I.R.S., chartered in Puerto Rico and which does not exist in federal law, then Id pretty much say the U.S is a socialist fascist democracy, with a bunch of really dumb people, who live in a cage and think they are free. Incidentally, Federal income tax does not go to pay for anything other than the interest of the national debt, Google 1984 Grace Commission report.
    Regan asked where does Federal Income tax go and he found, out into a rat hole called the Federal Reserve and the IMF

  19. Dr. A. ‘netiquette’ is one word, which shows your unfamiliarity with it. I suggest you read the basic rules:

    http://www.albion.com/netiquette/corerules.html

    A good case that you break all ten is easy to make.

    I suggest you might try limiting each post to 100 words or less — this forum software is not designed to handle unrestrained verbosity. Writing concisely might assist you in catching typos and stating your point in a more pithy (i.e. ‘understandable’) manner.

    Leave off the wild conspiracy theory and stop the constant insults and you might even obtain some modicum of respect.

    All this is stuff that’s already in the user agreement shown when you signed up here and (in my opinion at least) should have been emphasized to you by the moderators a number of times already.

    In other words, you are not playing nicely.

  20. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Ralph
    1. The word ‘netiquette’ does not exist in Blacks Law or Webster’s; it appears to be a vernacular derivation of Net Etiquette. Your assumption that I am unfamiliar with the term is patently false, as most of what you assert.

    2. I do not deal in conspiracy theories and since you did not elaborate what conspiracy theory, you feel I posted, your statement is void ab initio like most of what you post.

    3. You are not a moderator, though I am sure, you would love to be one, censor, and restrict as many people as you could, since individuals of your Ilk have a propensity to try to regulate the entire world , in an attempt to impose your pious anachronistic aberrant points of view on others.

    4. Your repeated implications that I should be moderated, are indicative of a tattletale kind of mentality, which is why many people on this forum use pseudonyms to protect identities against those who view themselves as self-appointed judgmental guardians of the race, with egg upon their face, who would with impunity, attempt to investigate and report others outside the confines of this forum to so called authorities. This is precisely the reason we now live in an insane regulatory, statutory society, in which public policy trumps THE LAW
    Translated Ralph, I wouldn’t trust your tattle tale self as far as I could throw you
    Mind your own business and you will not be so busy minding everyone else’s Ralph
    Good Day

  21. Do I detect a bit of irateness, eh?

    You would not be so upset unless you actually realized you are not treating the folk trying to use this board fairly.

    But you did restrict yourself closer to 100 words, so that’s a start.

    But in your 4th point you sorta drift off the point.

    I am NOT trying to regulate you, Doc, it’s not my job. Just merely requesting on behalf of a long-suffering membership that you regulate yourself.

    Please.

    You can do it.

    I know you can.

  22. J. C.

    The only things she is interested in is making money and getting attention. She should go to Vietnam and tell the women there how much better they have it.
    There are many women’s issues and struggles but she is NOT the woman to listen to..or lead.

  23. J.C., you have stated the bottom line of this entire controversy very concisely! Thank you.

    Again, whoever chose Jane Fonda for this event did EVERYONE wrong — women, veterans… everyone.

  24. atruth… to be more correct, I am the _antithesis_ of Dr. A., or at least of whoever this anonymous poster’s presented persona:

    I am bright where he is dim, humorous to his petulant dourness, lucid where he flounders among addled conspiracies and never finds his point, reasonable while he takes umbrage at the least resistance to whatever muddled topic he pushes, understanding versus dogmatic but confusing thunder, dogs like me but nip at his heels, I am laughed with instead of laughed at, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound while he trips over a sheet of paper lying flat on the sidewalk, and a million more points of light to his consistent darkness.

    On top of that, I have a WHOLE lot more fun posting than him, write really well, and smell good.

  25. William P Miller

    Dr Anti…whatever said “You are known by the company you keep, it does not surprise me in the least, that Ralph shadows and parrots you to a tee. Both of you are walking contradictions, partly truth and partly fiction.”

    Dr Anti…whatever, thank you for comparing me to Ralph. I consider that a high compliment. And yu keep on keepin on…stay your bad self Dr A! Youare so entertaining. And you are the end of the lyric, my friend. “…taking every wrong direction on that lonely way back home.” (thank you Kris Kristofferson). -:)

    Jane Fonda should have done prison time for treason. The least she can do is sincerely apologize. And doing some community service would be a good thing. How about Jane getting “active” as a candy stripper at her local VA Hospital? She did it in one of her movie roles. Do it for real Jane. Earn your way back into esteem.

  26. Trey

    Gawd…. a Buffet fan quoting Kris Kristofferson…. what next???? Lionel Ritchie.

    And you want her to strip??? Yikes…..

  27. William P Miller

    No no trey. No one should have to look at a naked communist woman of 70 years. That was candy stripper. As in the line on the highway. Lionel Richie is for sissies. Kris K rocks…as does Mr buffet.

    Jane Fonda. I hear you are a born again Christian. Ask God to give you the strength to sincerely apologize for causing US military troops to be tortured and killed.

  28. Yeah. I cant believe she helped them win the war. Jeesh. What a traitor. But, I mean, If the US military can be defeated by a slight, frail rich girl in a picture, then maybe we deserved to lose. Maybe that’s what al queda needs to do. Maybe they need to get a picture of Brittany Spears assembling an IED, and then we will run home with our tail between our legs.

    Plus, I’m still furious at Emma Goldman for nearly causing us to lose World War I.

    And Oscar Wilde for causing the South to lose the Civil War (War of Northern Aggression).

  29. William P Miller

    No one claims she helped anyone win a war. We left Vietnam because we were not willing to continue pouring troops in there. And domestic opposition. If you ever have the courage to serve in our armed forces, atruth, you will find yourself holding a traitor’s feet to the fire. by the way, we kicked VC butt in the Nam. It was the politicians that screwed things up.

  30. “Ask God to give you the strength to sincerely apologize for causing US military troops to be tortured and killed.”

    But Emma Goldman nearly lost us WWI!!!!

  31. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Incontrovertible facts
    1. The government sent 53.000 U.S. troops to their death in Vietnam for absolutely nothing, except the hyper acceleration of the economy, via the ramping up of the military industrial complex.

    2. The U.S. government supported Saddam Hussein during the 80s, gave him Wmds, this is matter of congressional record. The U.S. financed Hussein, to wage a war with Iran, which caused the deaths of over one million Iranian’s.

    3. The U.S. government is now engaged in an Illegal, unconstitutional Military action in Iraq, by systematically contaminating and genetically mutating Iraqi’s in addition to its own hapless U.S. troops, by the use and exposure of depleted uranium munitions. In violation of all U.N law

    Any past indiscretions by Jane Fonda, pales in comparison to the actions of the U.S. government in Vietnam and the entire Middle East today.

    Anyone who supports the illegal actions of this administration, is by default, a traitor to the constitution, as no War has ever been declared.

    Even most of the so-called Born again neocon evangelicals who initially supported Bush, have remained silent as of recently in the wake of the exposure of all the admintrations lies.

    The entire Iraqi imperialistic campaign, is based on lies and deceit.
    The teleological inception and foundational premise of this lie, was based upon the erroneous concept, that 19 hijackers with box cutters, flew two planes, that brought down three towers. DO THE MATH
    Building 7, the Solomon brothers Tower wasn’t even hit, nor did it sufferer any structural damage, it dropped 7 hours after the intial attacks, in 7.8 seconds, the rate of terminal velocity. Most idiot U.S. citizens aren’t even aware 3 towers fell.

    Better stop looking at Jane Fonda and start looking for the truth, the hour is getting late.
    The U.S. public is no more than chattel idiots, unable or unwilling to discern truth, as knowing the truth requires action and responsibility, which would interfere with the pursuit of delusion and debauchery here in Babylon America.

    Have a happy 4th be sure to wave your flying idol, the U.S. War flag I.E. OLD GLORY, then stick your head back in the sand and click your heels 3 times and say Im free, as the gate keeper closes your cage.

  32. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Mr. Roberts
    Perhaps instead of engaging in personal attacks you might like to specifically address the three incontrovertible bullet points I made in my last post.
    Maybe you would like to remain on point, which of the three bullet points do you not agree with?

  33. William P Miller

    Dr Anti…whatever, Ralph is only making a joke for crying out load. Are you so serious you cannot get a chuckle out of it? Lord knows you are inadvertently funny…or do you post the way you do as a schtick to get us all rolling in the aisles? Thanks for all you do Doc. And have a good evening, sir.

    Women need to find their voices again.Find the voices they used to have as far as sticking up for the rights of their unborn babies, and their families in general. God bless the woman who loves her family and speaks up about it! Love conquers all.

  34. William… Dr. A. does not seem to understand humor.

    However, I will answer his three questions:

    1. no, it was not

    2. yes, we were kinda leaked off at Iran for the embassy takeover, etc. … looks like we are leaked off over nukes now.

    3. no, it’s been darned inefficient but legal and looks like we are now winning.

    Believe in America, Dr. A., and, please, have a Happy Fourth and wish — for whatever its faults — the greatest and most free land in the world, Happy Birthday.

  35. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Miller and Ralph
    Sorry you will not get this response until sometime before Christmas, as the thought police are moderating me. I am sure you like this fact, or perhaps not, as it was quite nice sparring and exchanging barbs with you, in virtual real time, I think you might have even enjoyed it.

    Alas, the regulatory police have decided to make sure I put on a nice nice face for the Sheep people. This whole statutory society/Illusion, created by lawyers for lawyers, in which we now live, is based on political correctness. Heated exchanges, which are the natural proclivity of males, seem to upset some folk, so they moderate and suppress words in the interest of suppressing reality, passion and honesty.

    Politics and current events, when discussed in the past, were done so, in Beer halls, so boys could be boys, if exchanges were heated, or heaven forbid, PHYSICAL, hey that’s Rock and Roll. The STATE AND LAWYERS OR HOMELAND SECURITY WERENT INVOLVED

    I long for the days when men, outside of the purview of THE STATE, could have a nice little Donny Brook, without lawyers and moron cops with tzars and still depart friends, after a few well-placed love taps and attitude adjustments. Now if you slug it out , or speak too loudly, a corporation or the ultimate corporation known as THE STATE, inserts itself, as an injured third party, as RES I dents and citizens{subjects of the state} are STATE owned property, think I’m kidding you… I’m not.

    In North Carolina the Field of Honor wasn’t even done away with until 1888, men still dueled, now they simply stab each other in the back using lawyers, behind typewriters under the guise of statutory civility. THIS IS A FALSE SOCIETY CREATED BY LAWYERS, WHO THEN MORPH INTO POLITICIANS.

    There used to be place in South Asheville called Dick’s Pastime Club, I was always to young to attend Dick’s, it was a local staple for years. I understood that if you walked into Dick’s and played anything other than George Jones on the jukebox, or drank anything other than PABST, that you were almost guaranteed a Deliverance style kind of hammer time, by the “good old boys”.

    The Police, most of whom are cowards, never answered calls from Dicks, as they were truly afraid of good old boys, who drank Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer and who were not above giving the police a good and much deserved whooping. Most of those good old boys, were gun-toting vets, who didn’t trust government and were more men and more American, than what passes for the sorry excuses for manhood, in today’s statutory regulated society of eunuchs, in the land of OZ

    When will the stupid American public realize that lawyers run everything? Seems I vaguely remember the much misquoted Jesus saying woe unto lawyers 17 times in Matthew 23???

    The government, Jane Fonda and Gloria Steinem along with lawyers, have probably done more than even soy products, to emasculate the male population today. Yes, SOY KILLS TESTOSTERONE. ITS IN EVERYTHING CHECK IT OUT ON FOOD PACKAGES.
    The Texas penal system uses soy to chemically castrate its inmates, its much more effective than salt peter

    Testosterone and truth, is the enemy of the State, which is why Testosterone levels, like sperm counts, are dropping at an alarming rate, 85% in the last 70 years alone. Soon the male population of this country will resemble nothing more than politically correct sissy’s, afraid of their own shadows and unable RISE TO THE OCASION, to repel and defend the country against the real domestic enemies and terrorists who dwell in legal fictions, called government agencies, not the joke CIA front/ fiction called alqueda that the mindless sheep have been given as the Boggie man.

    In short, men are not men anymore; they are literally incapable of gurdering up their loins, achieving vertical liftoff {on many different fronts] and muster the gumption, to engage in the exercise of righteous indignation, in order, to overthrow domestic tyrants. Instead, men want false civility, false security, not honesty, nor passion, they want their lives regulated and controlled, in a domesticated lawyer driven run matrix and their itching ears to be tickled by the government and 501c3 church’s, the biggest liars in the business.

    Now that a muzzle has been effectively placed on me, for the benefit maintaining the illusion of civility, let me get back on point

    Please Ralph qualify points 1 and 3.
    What strategic benefit did Vietnam serve? In case you did not notice, we lost that military action
    As to point 3, are you denying depleted uranium is being used by the U.S military in Iraq, is that correct???

  36. as an editor, I would have cut all of the above except the last paragraph.

    1) Vietnam contributed greatly to the fall of Soviet Union (despite all the hippy protestors). Basically, we just outspent the Evil Empire and drove it into bankruptcy trying to keep up with us. From a military viewpoint — for the sake of all my friends and brothers whose name are on the Wall in Washington — it would have been nice to have won. And we WERE winning but, alas, many in America lacked the guts to do so.

    3) I don’t remember even mentioning depleted uranium but, yes, it is used in both shells and tank armor in Iraq and elsewhere. That’s okay.

    Here’s the thing about war. It is and SHOULD be the diplomacy of last result. But if you DO go to war, go to WIN. Kill all the enemy you can as quick as you can. Use shock and awe to roll them up and plant your flag on their dead arses. Declare victory and go home. Then regular diplomacy suddenly starts working again and piddling little despots are suddenly a whole lot more polite to the U.S.

    Otherwise, you get long, drawn out crap like Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq.

    And, by the way, I DO remember Dick’s Pastime Club and the only way I would have gone in there would have been with the 82nd Airborne and a bunch of tanks firing depleted uranium shells.

  37. er… as the Typo Police remind me … that should have been ‘diplomacy of last RESORT’ …

    so, when are we gonna get an editing feature on this board?

  38. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    The Vietnam debacle had nothing to do with the Soviet Union falling you have got your time lines all wrong.
    Vietnam was over in 1975, the wall did not fall until 14 years later, your contention is inane. The fall of the Soviet Union was because of the devaluation of their currency, due to Leo Wanta one of Regan’s Treasury agents men buying large blocks of rubbles at a discount rate flooding the maket and then liqudating the currency.

    Your contention that the U.S won the cold war is again false, Russia is far from through as a super power, as a matter of fact you like most sheep people were unaware of of defcon situation only last week with the Russians, involving the U.S. shooting down of a Russian spy plane. Incidentally, the Russian economy is in much better shape than the U.S.econemy, they have all the oil
    Your assertion that the Iraqi war is legal is again erroneous perhaps you need to read Article one section 8 no war has ever been declared by congress therefore the War is constitutionally illegal.
    Have you ever thought perhaps it is you who are on the verge of being edited and censored, think about it Ralph?
    Perhaps you might need to spend more time studying history instead of worrying if the editors are doing their job or who made a typo.
    Your contentions can easily be refuted as they are based on nationalistic group think and are without merit.

  39. Is it possible for you to have a discussion without constantly belittling everyone?

    Vietnam and events in all of Indochina had a major impact on the Soviet Union (which was North Vietnam’s main supporter, not China). As did other contributing causes from World War II until the Berlin Wall fell, then the Soviet Union dissolved. Look at the big picture, that great tapestry of History and interactions. Give credit for consistency in fighting and finally triumphing over Communism to Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon (who may have been a crook but was a genius at foreign policy), Ford, and especially Reagan and the elder Bush credit (yes, I left out Carter — Bush the younger should praise the Lord every night on his knees because, thanks to Carter’s blunders, he cannot possibly be the worse president this century — close second, however).

    In short, we beat ’em big time and Vietnam played a not insignificant part.

    Now, we are engaged in a life or death struggle with a much older and, in some ways, more evil enemy, Islam.

    And I relieve you mean ‘rubles’ instead of instead of “rubbles” — although, we certainly did turn that currency into rubble.

    As to editors, I AM an editor and my great war is against typos. My own. Yours. Anyone’s. They must all die for clarity of communication.

  40. Typo report: I used the word ‘credit’ twice in that long, unwieldy, but ever so pertinent sentence above. Please excise one of them from your minds. Thank you.

  41. david

    Ralph, “Is it possible for you to have a discussion without constantly belittling everyone?”

    -david

  42. david

    Ralph.
    “2. yes, we were kinda leaked off at Iran for the embassy takeover, etc. … looks like we are leaked off over nukes now.”

    So, do you know anything about the lead-up to this “Embassy takeover”? Anything about BP and the CIA’s involvement in overthrowing Iran’s democratically elected leader in 1953? This is a big piece of recent history left out of a good portion of ‘the west’s’ assessment of the ‘middle-east crises’. This isn’t ‘conspiracy theory’, this is basic, high-school-level history.

    Personally, I find your answers to doc antisanity’s questions kind of, well, pitiful. You brush off legitimate research with declarative, definitive personal opinions like “No, it is not”?
    How about some supporting facts? Whether or not I agree with the doc’s condescending tone, I will have to put my two cents in that 9 times out of 10 he seems to be schooling you in a way you fail to even notice.

    I understand that you and the good doctor have differing opinions about history, but your personal opinion does not make something fact. History is not one person’s opinion, one country’s opinion, one culture’s opinion. It is the collection of perspectives from all sides involved, interpreted by individuals own personal biases.

    Your Vietnam War for Democracy is a Weapon’s Manufacturer’s profit margin and a Vietnamese rice farmer’s introduction to napalm.

  43. William P Miller

    Ralph, doyou really believe there is a chance to have a reasoned discussion with Dr Anti…whatever? Starting with his chosen avatar,he is off base. He would’ve been closer to his real sentiments with an avatar photo of Old Joe Stalin.-:)

    God bless our military and those who serve to keep the rest of us free!

  44. heh, heh…. Uncle Joe? … yep, I can see that working.

    Yes, God bless all those that have fought and will fight, and Happy Birthday, America!

    I love you.

  45. er, David… are saying Dr. A.’s rambling is something I or anyone else should respond to seriously? Have you read it?

    and both you and Dr. A. miss the whole point of war from 10,000 B.C. until this moment.

    but, I’m not interested in debating it. … it’s time, this weekend, to celebrate America not tear it down.

    “Love it or leave it,” is an old cliche but many of us are willing to help folks who don’t get it pack.

    Happy FOURTH!

  46. david

    Ralph, so, I guess that means you have no idea what i’m talking about, since you haven’t addressed any of the points in any kind of reasoned, accurate way? Its telling that you refer to posts that contain researched facts as being rambling, whilst your “ramblings” are only thinly veiled (if that) personal opinion, backed up by nothing credible.

    “Love it or leave it”, huh? Does having a good sense of history mean I dont love my country? Does wanting history to be a closer reflection of reality and not just some propoganda-filled patriotism mean i dont love my country? If you think this country should only be filled with those who agree to your pre-packaged patriotism, then you have truly never left your zip code. This is a very diverse nation, with lots of different opinions. Learn them, embrace them, understand them, respect them, or maybe YOU should be the one “packing.” I find your desire to send others ‘packing’ disturbing and xenophobic, to say the least.

    Have fun on the fourth. And, if you can, try and take the time to research the above mentioned illegal coup staged by representatives of our country, in the name of Democracy, for the direct profit of a few oil corporations. Can you justify an illegal coup staged in your name? Without your consent? For the benefit of a British Company? I doubt it. I’m sure you’ll just make folksy quips about my patriotism, my region of origin, or some other subject dodging tactic.

    It would be very easy to embrace your obviously simplistic world-view, Ralph; with commies and Islams in one corner, and super-man with an American flag in the other, but I hope you might take the time to understand that War is never about Good and Bad. It is about profit and cultural hegemony. To think otherwise is to be duped into fighting unnecessary wars for people who dont care one lick for you or your neighbors.

    Do you really think Ms. Fonda hated you and your fellow ‘troops’? Or can you grasp that she just didnt hate the Vietnamese people? That she, as a naive, idealistic young woman, wanted to try and show the American public that there is no Good “Side” in a war that kills tens of thousands of innocent people. Destroying the village to save it. You remember that one, right?

    I guess the thousands of Vietnam vets who, to this day, despise that war and those who sent them there, are all traitors to their nation, huh?

    “Nobody is free if others are oppressed.” No more cliche than your ‘love it or leave it’, Ralph.

  47. William P Miller

    “The Fightin Side Of Me” sung by Merle Haggard

    I hear people talkin’ bad,
    About the way we have to live here in this country,
    Harpin’ on the wars we fight,
    An’ gripin’ ’bout the way things oughta be.
    An’ I don’t mind ’em switchin’ sides,
    An’ standin’ up for things they believe in.
    When they’re runnin’ down my country, man,
    They’re walkin’ on the fightin’ side of me.
    Yeah, walkin’ on the fightin’ side of me.
    Runnin’ down the way of life,
    Our fightin’ men have fought and died to keep.
    ***If you don’t love it, leave it:***
    Let this song I’m singin’ be a warnin’.
    If you’re runnin’ down my country, man,
    You’re walkin’ on the fightin’ side of me.

    I read about some squirrely guy,
    Who claims, he just don’t believe in fightin’.
    An’ I wonder just how long,
    The rest of us can count on bein’ free.
    They love our milk an’ honey,
    But they preach about some other way of livin’.
    When they’re runnin’ down my country, hoss,
    They’re walkin’ on the fightin’ side of me.

    Yeah, walkin’ on the fightin’ side of me.
    Runnin’ down the way of life,
    Our fightin’ men have fought and died to keep.
    ***If you don’t love it, leave it:***
    Let this song I’m singin’ be a warnin’.
    If you’re runnin’ down my country, man,
    You’re walkin’ on the fightin’ side of me.

    Yeah, walkin’ on the fightin’ side of me.
    Runnin’ down the way of life,
    Our fightin’ men have fought and died to keep.
    ***If you don’t love it, leave it:***
    Let this song I’m singin’ be a warnin’.
    If you’re runnin’ down my country, man,
    You’re walkin’ on the fightin’ side of me.

  48. david

    Ralph-

    I guess you think it’s okay for unelected members of the CIA to overthrow democratically elected governments in other countries, in our nations name.

    You are right. That does ‘say it all.’

    I DO love my country. But I don’t love my government and the illegal, unconstitutional actions it does supposedly ‘in my name’. Blind Patriotism is never a good thing, ralph. Love of one’s region, neighborhood, family, etc, is worlds away from love of one’s National Government.

    Any intelligent person, who can answer questions would be well aware of that. And you do not speak for a majority of Vietnam Vets, so please keep the self-rightiousness to a minimum. There are thousands of vietnam Vets who protested that immoral, unnecesary, illegal war, as well as this current one. You are not fooling anyone.

  49. david

    also…

    Merle Haggard is also a big Hillary Clinton fan, and he recently wrote a song for her entitled “Hillary.”

    Seriously.

    In addition, he has admitted in multiple interviews that the above song, as well as “Okie From Muskogee” was penned somewhat “tongue in cheek” as both tribute to and joke about the smalltown mentality. It’s kind of a backhanded compliment, and really nothing more than a succesful marketing campaign to sell records. Something he has also readily admitted in multiple interviews. He refused to give George Wallace an endorsement because he was ‘disgusted’ with he man.

  50. David, what does it matter what I think? You take things two personally. It’s just a message board and we’ll all entitled to post our own opinions. Are you afraid mine will change you? Is that it? I would love to be that persuasive but I doubt I am and I’m not trying anyway.

    But you did mention George Wallace, so I feel free to tell my George Wallace story about the only time I met the man. I was home on leave prior to shipping out to Vietnam during the election of 1968. George Wallace was running for president and made a visit to Asheville. I took my dad, who liked Wallace to hear him speak. Since I was a handsome young hero in uniform, we got to meet George after the speech. The thing that I remembered about him was that he had a pocket watch which played “Dixie.” That was a BIG thing in the South in those days (and still is in more parts than people realized). I know he had this pocket watch because he played it for dad and I … then he went back up on the podium and played it over the PA for everyone.

    Well, you would have had to be there, but it was a MOMENT!

  51. The point of the above anecdote is that Wallace could HOLD a crowd in a way that I’ve not seen recently, not even Obama matches him.

  52. Oh, and David … I do not claim to speak for anyone other than myself. My goal is just encouraging folks to think for themselves, entertain, and be informative about local customs, etc. I am not accomplishing that with some folks, but there remains hope.

  53. William P Miller

    david, wow, are you wrong.

    First, Ralph DOES speak for most veterans. Myself included.

    Second, the idea that Merle Haggard sang that song tongue in cheek proves you don’t know jack about him. He meant every word of it. The “small town mentality” you denigrate, is what traditional America is all about. Where are you from? A large northeastern city? Hum? Are you a metrosexual, anti-American freedom leech like many gen-xers are you? Wise up man and appreciate what we have in this country. It’s not perfect, but we have it MUCH better than most of the world. If you doubt these words, go stay in Cuba for 6 months and see how that works for you. But, a word of advice. Don’t whine out loud there or they will arrest you and put you in jail.

    Stand up for what you believe. But don’t run down your country, hoss. Or you’ll get on my bad side. -:)

  54. david

    Ralph-

    The point of this conversation, as I recall, was your assertion that “yes, we were kinda leaked off at Iran for the embassy takeover, etc. … looks like we are leaked off over nukes now.” I merely asked you to comment on the historical background behind the embassy takeover. You have yet to do that in your last FIVE posts. Instead, you have dealt in character defamation and anecdotal quips that steare the conversation further and further away from the topic and closer to the area you are comfortable in: making it conservative vs liberal, southern culture vs northern culture, etc.

    My original point was that you attacking Doc A for being rambling and off-topic was silly, coming from you. As condescending and wing-nutty as he comes across, he is able to give researchable points to most topics. You, on the other hand, refute such facts with your own opinion, backed up by nothing other than, your opinion. This is not educated debate. This is junior high school-boy taunting. Refute his points, or anyones points, with other facts if you have such un-shakeable faith in your own perspective. If you think clinging to your opinions, without the desire to be open to more information is an honorable stance, then you will probably never pull your head out of the sand. This kind of attitude is certainly what keeps intelligent debate from occurring in this culture we share. Too many people who want to believe what they have been told so desperately that they refuse to look at all of the available info.

    In addition, your simplified comments regarding any dissenters patriotism are rude and arrogant, to say the least. Questioning someone’s patriotism is quite an accusation. So be prepared to account for yourself before you go throwing baseless accusation around. Your weak defense that it’s ‘just your opinion’ is inexcuseable. It would seem that it is you who are afraid of learning the truth by actually LISTENING to someone else, even Doc A, before falling back on your character assassination.

    Doc A’s opinions are just as valid as yours, and yet you bash his opportunity to state them at every turn. I, for one, am tired of it, and wish to point out this obvious, glaring hypocrisy to you, since you seem completely oblivious to it, judging by your behavior on these boards for years now.

    Trust me, more people than I dont appreciate your condescending, definitive tone. I’m just more whiny and vocal than others here…

    (and now i’ll copy my reply since only half of what i submit ever makes it to these boards. I am moderated far more than others engaging in very off-topic flame-baiting, for sure.)

  55. William P Miller

    david, the moderators are picking on you? Why oh why I must wonder. Hey you have a good evening mi amigo. And I still Jane Fonda needs to apologize for being a traitor. Come on Jane. You are a born-again Christian now. Repent and you will be forgiven.

  56. David, what in the heck is a ‘condescending definitive tone?’

    I am hardly ‘condescending’ but I freely admit I am often ‘definitive.’

    That’s quite a nice compliment. Thank you.

    Reminds me of the time in high school someone, irked with me for one reason or another, in attempted insult called me the “mere epitome of a man.” He was sore perplexed when I smiled, thanked him, and walked away.

    But, let me ask you seriously, just how of curiosity, precisely how much troll blood is there in your genealogy?

    As I’ve said before, lighten up. Thank you.

    Consider that as having come from a mere epitome of a man.

  57. William P Miller

    david calls others “condescending”? Isn’t it uncanny how often he, and us, project our own faults onto others. -:)

    Yes, Jane Fonda is a traitor. Funk and Wagnel should have her picture next to the definition. She comes from priviledge, yet dislikes her own country. I say, cast her out and let her settle in Cuba. Then see if she whines there after she realizes she will be jailed there if she speaks up. She once said that if people were smart, they would realize that communism is a superior political system to what we have here. Let her walk her talk.

  58. david

    “yet dislikes her own country”

    And here is the problem in your logic. The military industrial complex is not ‘this country’. To claim that the actions of the minority of war-profiteers and their cronies is “This country” is to deny the truly diverse population and their many desires, war only being one of those desires.

    william-I would love to have a logical debate with you. Anytime you are able to post on the Forums, let me know.

  59. William P Miller

    david, I have put up logical arguments here. Respond if you are able.

    Jane Fonda is a traitor whose own father disapproved of her perfidious trips to our enemy, North Vietnam. Simple. Respond?

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