Staff to recommend Parkside one story shorter

Asheville’s Planning and Development Department will recommend that City Council approve the Parkside development adjacent to City/County Plaza if developer Stewart Coleman agrees to shave one floor from the design, according to Interim Planning Director Shannon Tuch.

The 11-story proposed development is slated to appear before Council on June 10 for a level-three conditional-use-permit hearing — a consideration reserved for buildings of 100,000 square feet or greater.

Staff’s recommendations to Council mirror proposals considered by the Planning and Zoning Commission in April: that the building be reduced by one floor and conform to LEED green-building standards, and that the project support affordable-housing goals by either supplying housing or funding for affordable housing programs.

Planning and Zoning Commission members were split on the proposal, ending their deliberation in a 3-3 vote. To download the staff report and recommendations to P&Z, click here.

On Monday, Coleman would not elaborate on his plans leading up to the June 10 meeting, saying only, “We have not made a decision on what we are going to do, but we are aware of all of our options.”

Brian Postelle, staff writer

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71 thoughts on “Staff to recommend Parkside one story shorter

  1. travelah

    The battle over this needs to shift to City Council and hopefully with well thought out arguments rather than a rabble.

  2. One story gives certain people the feeling that they are still in control. LOL

    I’m glad that Parkside appears to be more or less a done deal now, although I will miss the futile misdirection of energy by the lefties tilting at windmills.

    The economic advantages of Parkside outweigh the cost of re-purchasing the land.

  3. travelah: You’re joking right?

    Okay, I’ll play along.

    1) The once vacant, and untaxed, land will be paying taxes into city and county coffers.

    2) The restaurant and retail spaces in the building will be employing people, generating income to the employees of those businesses, and increasing business networking opportunites on a once vacant, and non-productive piece of land.

    3) The condominiums will generate economic revenue for the businesses of the area, more tax revenue (uggh) for the various government agencies collecting them.

    4) From what I’ve seen of the various representations, the building will be another unique addition to the cityscape of Asheville.

    5) Oh, and did I mention there will be more trees?

    I see no downside. Only progressives (and their enablers) who would not recognize economic progress if they saw it.

    I am sure in my haste, I have overlooked many more economic advantages.

  4. If the Planning and Development Department approves a development I think City Council is required to pass it into action.

    I am very conflicted – because I’d much rather see some mixed affordable housing instead of *another* hotel, which seems to be the current trend despite the fact the looming recession and lack of affordable fuel will start to take a extremely serious toll on our tourism industry. However, will this condominium be mixed affordable housing or will it be more empty over-priced condos for 2nd home-owners and summer-time snow-birds? Those residents do not put back into the community and a variety of economic levels. Our city needs to adopt the philosophy of community before tourism and self-exploitation.

    There are going to be a great deal of members in the community who are going to be very irate over this tract of land. In the development we will loose a 100+year old magnificent tree which is a symbol of a great deal of our proud history.

    Another aspect to deeply consider is how will this development effect Eagle-Market streets? Between this and the Ellington encroaching in on ‘the Block,’ what will the effect be on those businesses, their rent prices and overall neighborhood feeling? Will this only force Black-Asheville further out from the rest of the affluent white middle & upper class residents and tourists of downtown Asheville? These are important aspects which should be considered in these decisions, and yet it seems to me as if there has been a lack of deep thought and perspective throughout this entire ordeal.

    The fact that the Commissioners sold this in the first place makes me want to replace the whole lot of ’em. This decision represents their lack of thinking through exceptionally important matters, and when you are in policy affecting citizen’s lives & the future of the entire community you had better be a deep-thinker. Considering the fact that this deal has caused already a great deal of strife in the community, and will probably only continue to do so as this development gets approved makes me just want to say:
    I hope the chickens come home to roost for Carol Peterson, Bill Stanley, and Nathan Ramsey come November.

  5. there wont be any mixed affordable housing in this area. they might “say” that they’ll promise it, but money talks and they’ll probably keep the whole thing a hotel im guess. they should change what it looks like. just another cut/copy.

  6. JBo:

    Very thoughtful comment. I’ll just address the Eagle-Market Street question.

    Economic Activity is not a Zero-Sum Game. The increased economic activity near Parkside would increase the value of economic activity in Eagle and Market Streets, and might even encourage foot traffic between the two areas, and other areas within walking distance. (When I lived in Asheville, I walked everywhere).

  7. Gordon Smith

    “If the Planning and Development Department approves a development I think City Council is required to pass it into action.”

    Council can vote however it wants to, but they will take staff’s recommendations into account. These recommendations appear to be in response to the Planning and Zoning rejection of the condominium highrise.

    They will also hear the Pack Square Conservancy’s objections based on the fact that Parkside doesn’t meet the PSC Guidelines which were agreed to by the City and the County.

    There’s also the question of the ongoing lawsuit between Coleman and the Pack family.

    There’s also the fact that Coleman met in secret with Scott Shuford for nearly a year before purchasing the ill-gotten parcel and the fact that 90 seconds after County Commission made the sale, Shuford was presenting the possibility of gifting a piece of City owned property to interested parties. This piece was part of a “land swap” deal that it appears Shuford and Coleman worked on long before the deal was done.

    Passing this building would be greenlighting the process that got it to Council. That process is rife with doubletalk, secrets, backroom deals, and good-old-boy network connections that you and I aren’t privy to.

    The Pack family gave this park land to the “public forever”, yet our government is at the precipice of giving it away to a Shuford crony.

  8. Thunder:

    A piece of undeveloped land does not mean it is not land without value. Do not underestimate the value of quality of life attributed with communal green-spaces and parks. Not necessarily in specific reference to this tract of land, albeit killing the treasured magnolia tree is nothing less than a nearly criminal travesty.

    Are you saying you are not a current resident of Asheville?
    I respect your thoughtful points of order and interest from afar, but I wouldn’t necessarily say you’ve a justified right to place value judgments when you are not a current resident or active member of the community. This comment is not meant to offend, but rather defend current interests that I have heard from a considerably vocal & passionate aspect of our community.

  9. travelah

    Thunder, it is amusing for one group to lump me in with “progressives” and another group to cast me as a “right-winger”. Neither seems to have a clue.
    Let’s look at your list.
    1. Paying taxes to the county. Generally speaking, having government collect more tax revenue is not economic progress unless you are of the mindset that tax and spend is a desirable thing.
    2. The retail spaces could be built elsewhere providing the same economic opportunity and still preserve the common green as it now stands.
    3. The condos could be built elsewhere providing the same economic impact. I addressed your fallacy concerning taxes above.
    4. A unique addition to the community is a matter of opinion and that itself has no economic added value especially when common green space is sacrificed for it.
    5. Trees? Adding ornamental trees to a construction project adds no economic value to the community.

    Would you like to try again?

  10. Jbo:
    What, are you a Nativist? I haven’t seen you at any of the anti-Illegal Alien Rallies. /jk

    I do not need to justify my involvement in Asheville or Buncombe Business or Political Communities, unless you are asking for my travel or residency papers, Fraulein.

  11. travelah:

    I did not call you a progressive. (touchy?)

    I presume this statement is what you are referencing?

    ——-quoted text—–
    I see no downside. Only progressives (and their enablers) who would not recognize economic progress if they saw it.
    ——quoted text—–

    If you are not a progressive, then you are enabling their agenda.

    The land has been purchased and money spent, money that the County (or City) would have to pay (plus profit) to regain the land…resulting in a net loss for the County and taxpayers, part of which, I would have to pay. I strenuously object to paying any more taxes than is absolutely necessary.

    There is still plenty of communal (I say communist) green left in Asheville. Take a look at Asheville using Google Earth. The city is nothing but green spaces.

    According to the documents I have read, the sale of the land was legal. The courts will make that final determination, and I am confident of the final ruling.

  12. Gordon:

    My understanding from speaking with current counsel members is that unless there is a phenomenal reason of circumstance, pretty much counsel is expected to approve what the Planning and Development Department recommends. Knowing our current counsel, I don’t foresee a band of four rebellious that will overturn this so long as Coleman does work within the scheme of affordable housing and ecological sustainability.

    Lest the Pack Family succeed in their lawsuit or Coleman decides not to comply with the city recommendations, it does seem as if they’ve jumped all the hoops successfully though not necessarily honestly.

  13. Thunder:

    I’m certainly not a nativist, despite living in Asheville during the old ‘ghost town’ days.

    You don’t pay taxes to the city coffer.
    That is what gives citizens their right to a voice & representation in local community affairs.

    I’ll throw the welcome back party if ever you should decide to align your money with your views.

  14. You need to explain to my tax attorney why I shouldn’t be paying taxes in Asheville.

    Tax Payment has nothing to do with ANY rights we have.

    Your approach qualifies as an Ad Hominem attack because you must deflect from the merit of my arguments.

    I’m in the fight, and I’m in it to the end.

  15. JBO:

    I’ll even buy you lunch in one of the restaurants, so we can have a nice conversation, and enjoy the addition to downtown Asheville.

  16. travelah

    Thunder, I can surmise that if one disagrees with you, they become an enabler of your enemies.
    As for additional taxes, that would be due to having to purchase back at an incredible windfall price what they never should have sold in the first place. That does not constitute an economic gain in anybody’s book but that of the developer and perhaps the inside folks involved in the “deal”.

  17. The Wine Mule

    From an article by Cecil Bothwell that ran in MountainX last July:

    Apparently Coleman initially wanted to purchase only the old jail. “He approached us to buy the alley, and [County Manager Wanda Greene] said, ‘All or nothing,’” Planning Director Jon Creighton told Xpress. Asked who, if anyone, knew or should have known that the property included part of the park, Creighton said that would have been a matter for Assistant County Attorney Michael Frue to determine, but he added, “I don’t think there was ever a legal definition of the property that was given to the park.”

    ——

    Greene and Frue were either totally inept at their jobs or else were working in Coleman’s interest. Incompetent or corrupt? The choice is yours…

    I’d say that arguing over aesthetics and taxes is a huge distraction; the deal was tainted from the very beginning.

  18. travaelah:

    I never called anyone an enemy in this thread. I have tried to keep the conversation to the issue at hand.

    You better be glad is wasn’t me that purchased the land…I would sell it very dearly, if forced to do so.

    It sounds like you guys should be mad at Wanda Green. To which I say, “Good Luck” the only way Wanda is leaving that job is via a perp walk…

    I covered the Nikwasi Celebration in Franklin a couple of weeks ago to celebrate the addition of the Nikwasi mound to the Cherokee Heritage Trail System. The Mayor of Franklin read a portion of the deed that stipulated the mound was to be preserved as a condition of the Town of Franklin owning the land, and instructed that if the conditions were not met, then any citizen of Macon County could sue to gain control of the deed.

    You can hear it for yourself at the 16 to 18 minute part of the following video:
    http://thundercast.blip.tv/#928629

  19. Andrew

    Density is good, and as long as they are putting growth in the downtown area and not on a mountainside or in the suburb I’m all for it. The more people you see on foot, walking around town spending their money the better for the town. Who wants to live in a ghost town? And really, can anybody imagine TOO many people walking around? Sure there will be more traffic, but this project will be built, or another one like it, and it has the most positive impact and the least negative impact when placed in a downtown urban environment.
    If you’re going to make life difficult for developers (and someone should – they often tramp all over us little people), target the ones that exacerbate SUBurban sprawl, forces the roads to be widened through pristine countrysides and drags people out of urban centers.

    BUILD UP NOT OUT.

    Google: “Vancouver EcoDensity”

  20. Thunder:

    Travelah has a point –
    You debate by attacking people & their perspectives, rather than actually focusing in on just the issues.

    You should learn to play nice with others, rather than attacking them for being a little bit different – and thankfully so. What a boring world it would be if we all had the same experiences and perspectives. Better to debate with character and integrity than with scorn and contempt.

    Now, back to point –
    There is something rotten in the state of Denmark. If there really are shady back-room deals going on, why isn’t there an investigation into justification?

    And you’re point on Eagle Market streets doesn’t fly with me. I sincerely doubt with all my heart, that the high-priced boutiques and and restaurants that will be put into both this property and the Ellington are going to allow the free-market of the Block to thrive. Tell me honestly that you think folks are going to walk out of these developments and want to use Smooth’s Barber Shop or some sort of high-end salon? We will eventually push out any Black community that still exists in our downtown, and then we will wonder why they feel disconnected in their gentrification and thus turn to gang-activity in order to create their own sense of community.

  21. travelah

    Thunder, if you were forced to return the property, you would do so in a manner that made you “whole” and that would most likely not include an exorbitant windfall.

  22. JBO:

    I think you view economic activity as a Zero-Sum Game, with no one able to profit without harming another.

    Let me share with you an example of how economics work:

    When we do work that pleases our fellow man, or employers, we receive money as a reward for our services. Our employer gains from the work we do, and we gain from our work, which then gives us a right to lay a claim on the goods and services of others.

    Say I am a representation of the worker in the previous paragraph:

    I take some of my money that I earned, and go into a grocery store, and purchase a gallon of milk.

    I gain from that transaction. The grocer gains from that transaction. We both gain.

    Now, if I were to go in and, at gun point, take a gallon of milk from the grocer. In that scenario, I win, and the grocer loses. That was a Zero-Sum Transaction.

    Economic Activity often adds up to a sum greater than it’s constituent parts, and grows in ways we cannot imagine.

    Take Ghost Town opening up last year. I spent $20 on a ticket, and perhaps 15 or 20 more while there.

    I also took some photographs and videos, and met a few people, while there. I have made nearly $3,000 dollars from the photos I sold of things I photographed, and provided security consulting to a guy I traded business cards with on that day.

    I imagine there were many similar stories that day, just ask the town of Maggie Valley, and the many businesses who gained from the amusement park re-opening. And all that was possible because some “rich guy” took a risk, and invested millions of dollars, and thousands of hours.

    Parkside won’t be as positive gain for Asheville that Ghost Town is for the people in Maggie Valley. It will, however be a gain that will lead to other gains, and an Economic Synergy” will build.

    Money goes where it is appreciated. You need to think about the “chilling effect” killing Parkside will result in. Investors will say, “Why build in Asheville? These people will fight me tooth and nail, and disparage my character, and the character of anyone they can find near me. I’ll go somewhere else.”

  23. travelah:

    That’s why if I was Stewart Coleman, I’d be spending money hand over fist on the project to raise the cost of Buncombe County (or whoever sued in their place) getting it back. At some point, it would be cost prohibitive for Buncombe County…even if they were interested in getting it back.

  24. Andrew:

    I completely agree. I have worked for developers who were forced to build farther away from cities because of the restrictive zoning in the towns. Makes no sense, and these anti-development people are generating more of what they do not want.

  25. William P Miller

    Staff ought to recommend that this unnecessary over development project be flat out CANNED! This area should be PARK area only. Screw these developers and their useful idiots on the city planning and zoning commission. Don’t sell out Asheville!

  26. William, the predominance of developers running Asheville began in the 1920s and has continued unabated essentially since then but not always smoothly. Read your Asheville history about the city’s bankruptcy and the Sinking Fund (took us until the late 70s to pay off the 1920s). But that has not stopped the periodic waves of development, the largest of which is currently in full tidal wave right now.

  27. Ralph –
    Do you think this tidal wave will continue?
    The rest of the country is slowing down, but folks here in Asheville think things are just starting to get going and will only continue to speed up.
    I’m conflicted between Asheville growing up and creating a center for the Southeast in many leading areas, or keeping the small-city niche’ we all love. If Asheville grows we could great a region where the other small local townships would hopefully be able to maintain their proximity but also their distinct sizes. The goal is to prevent sprawl here as much as possible between the townships.

    Are you participating in any of the downtown master plan meetings? Your input would be great – you’ve lot of ideas. The biggest community session is happening this weekend – introduce yourself to me if you end up coming, which I highly hope you will consider.

  28. Thanks for the invite, JBo… I cannot make tonight’s meeting but I hope to attend some.

    Up until the last few years, everyone pretty much assumed Asheville would eventually grow. We were not small and quaint by intent but rather due to serious setbacks since as the bankruptcy of the city I mention earlier.

    Part of the current conflict between natives and newcomers has to do with expectations — one side expecting growth at long last, the other wanting to keep the ‘quaintness’ they just discovered.

    As to the continued pace of development, yes I think it will continue (albeit not always at the same speed). There is just too much money on the table for these guys to ignore and, yes, as long as new folks keep coming, that pile of money grows and grows.

    This is both sad and exciting; both hoped for and dreaded … complicated.

    but… yup, it will go on. … and on. And I think no one person or group can contain it or even much guide it. Look what happens now — the UDO and zoning regulations in place not realistic and are easily circumvented or just plain flaunted. No group from Boston — in my humble opinion — is ever going to get a handle on who and how mountain politics work or come up with any sort of workable plan, no matter how much local input they seek. They just don’t speak the language.

  29. William P Miller

    Ralph, true history. BUT, there is no time like now to STOP the latest madness. And some say Coleman is local. At least in the past the developers have been outsiders, and much of what they did was in the interests of the general populace. This latest boondockle is evil in intent and must be stopped. The Pack family gave that land to the people of Buncombe County. Graft and under the table favors are at fault for the sale from the getgo.

  30. Coleman is local, grew up here … his father was developer of the Asheville Mall and other significant places.

    I agree that George Pack gave the land for public use and it NEVER should have been sold. But Gordon Smith and others are missing the point in trying to demonize Coleman. The REAL fault and blame belongs to the public officials who allowed failed the public trust and allowed this sale to go through. THEY are the ones that we all should be going after.

  31. Gordon Smith

    Ralph,

    You’re going after County Commission? Awesome. See you Tuesday. Hopefully Stewart Coleman is working arm-in-arm with our City and County government in order to find a resolution to this untenable situation.

    If Stewart Coleman wants the public to have the park land back, we’ll get it back. If he doesn’t, then we’ll see. Coleman’s no demon. He’s just ignoring his civic duty and insulting those of us who’d like to see him meet it.

  32. Gordon, yes Coleman is for sure taking advantage but who GAVE him that opportunity? The mistake was made within the county government. Coleman is just doing his job, SOMEONE in the county did not do theirs and — one way or the other — we the citizens will foot the bill.

    THAT’s what you should be going after.

  33. William P Miller

    Gordon and Ralph, thank you both for being active on this.

  34. Gordon Smith

    Ralph,

    I’m not sure why the County needs to bear the burden of their own failings as well as Mr. Coleman’s unwillingness to return the land to us.

    “Doing his job”? His job is not to hold our public park land hostage. If it were me with the park land, I’d return it immediately. Stewart Coleman’s job is to be a good citizen, not a greedy son-of-a-gun.

  35. Gordon:

    Stewart Coleman has not broken any laws, and the last time I checked…it is not against the law to make a profit. Maybe that is next on your agenda, but not here, and not now.

    And, as long as we are pretending to be Coleman, I’d not willingly return a square inch of anything that I had paid for, and owned the deed to without being compensated for every dime I had spent, and for the time I had spent on the project. And, I’d be looking at the possibilities of filing some libel cases.

  36. TP beat me to it, Gordon (well stated, TP).

    Coleman is just doing his job and probably greatly enjoying the wonderful position the county government gifted him.

    Aim higher, Gordon, aim higher.

  37. William P Miller

    Coleman IS culpable in this. Of course the county commissioners are as well. Making a buck at the expense of the citizenry is no virtue. If Coleman truly loved Asheville he would have never gotten this shady deal going in the first place.

    VOTE ALL BUNCOMBE COUNTY COMMISSIONER ENCUMBANTS OUT OF OFFICE! That is the way to get their attention and serve notcie that any future shenanigans will not be tolerated by the people of Asheville.

  38. i.e. if they went against a VOTE of the people as in zoning, why do you think a more simple PREFERENCE of the people, as in selling the Pack trust land, would stop them?

    Gordon and the others wasting time on Coleman are missing the point.

  39. William:

    One of the basic tenets of Capitalism is that profits do not come at the expense of anyone.

    Marxists, however, do not believe that. They see all economic activity as a zero-sum proposition and hold it as fact that profits only come through exploitation.

    If Coleman is culpable, show me the law he broke. You can’t, and he didn’t.

    And SOMEBODY show me a survey of the Pack Property that was donated to the county. Only then can it be determined if the county sold any portion of that land. And if indeed public park land was sold…that is the legal responsibility of whoever sold the land, not the purchaser.

    I thought we had a legal tradition in this country of the Principle of Presumption of Innocence, and it is phrased such that “the accused is presumed to be innocent until it has been declared guilty by a court”.

    Conversely, in many authoritarian regimes the prosecution case is, in practice, believed by default unless the accused can prove they are innocent, a practice called presumption of guilt.

    Here, in the Socialist Republic of Asheville, Stewart Coleman has been presumed guilty, when it has not even been determined if a crime has been committed.

  40. Gordon Smith

    Ralph,

    The County made a “mistake”, but Coleman is intent on making sure it goes unremedied. Why Republicans, who claim to be all about personal responsibility, are so quick to let millionaires off the hook is beyond me.

    David Gantt is the only Commissioner to make it clear that he intends to correct the error. The rest are waiting to see if it blows over or if they can get someone else to do it for them.

    David Gantt, Holly Jones, and K. Ray Bailey are going to make great Commissioners come 2009.

  41. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Sorry Bobby
    The country your talking about with a constitutional government died circa 1933.

    The presumption of innocence is ridiculous. When you go into a admiralty equity administrative court, which all U.S. courts operate under, you have 2 pleas, guilty or not guilty, the innocent plea was abolished in 1970.Actually there are 7 pleas they don’t inform you of.

    The charges against you, read in an all capitalized name, which of course is a legal fiction. Your attorney, an agent of THE STATE, a corporation, then coerces you into pleading to some statutory charges, without seeing any of the evidence against you, this is a direct violation of the 4th 5th and 6 the articles of the constitution, to know the nature and the cause of the action against you.
    All evidence hearings, pre-trial, have been dispensed with for the last 70 years. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE SWORN TO UNDER OATH IN THE JURAT

    Incidentally there is no Supreme court or any article 3 court intact in the entire country, since Truman abolished all Article 3 courts in 1948.Dont believe me?Look at Article 3 of the constitution. Do you see Judges mentioned there? No. they are not in Article 3!

    The Supreme Court is inhabited by Justices, which are Article 4 admiralty, territorial, judicial officials and courts. In addition, Article 3 judges pay no income tax. What Judge do you know that pays no income tax? Article 3 judges and courts are supposed to be the constitutional courts, they are GONE!!!!!!!!

    The constitution is gone, the courts are gone and this country is gone, believing otherwise is tantamount to believing in the tooth fairy.

  42. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    PS I meant to say there are no justices in Article 3 of the constitution

  43. once again, Dr. A. falls off the topic and can’t get back up again. Your verbal profundities have nothing to do with the question at hand, i.e. ‘did the county government screw up or what?’

  44. by the way, Dr. A. you are incorrect about Article III of the Constitution (note the designation being the Roman numeral instead of how you referred to it).

    To wit (the first paragraph of the Section:

    “The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behavior, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office. …”

    Judges are justices.

    NOW climb back up on topic… that’s a good boy… you can do it!

    awww… he slipped again.

  45. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Thunder Pig
    “Conversely, in many authoritarian regimes the prosecution case is, in practice, believed by default unless the accused can prove they are innocent, a practice called presumption of guilt”.
    Iwas responding to thunder pigs post on this topic and was indeed on point Ralph.
    Go back to sleep old man

  46. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Ralph you idiot, the amendments of the the Bill of rights were refereed to in the organic consitution as ARTICLES as not to diminish their linkage to the orginal constitution you are soooo ignorant. Article 3 referes to Artice3 of the orginal organic document it deals with constitutional judical courts. Go back to sleep old man. READ IT FOR YOURSELF

  47. I did read it, that’s how I know you’re wrong.

    If you’re trying to convince us you’re crazy — congratulations, I BUH-LEEVE!

  48. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Ralph have you got a brain problem?
    what about Compensation which SHALL not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.
    since all justices pay income tax THEY ARE NOT Article 3 JUDGES DO YOU UNDERSTAND ????????

    Section 1 – Judicial powers

    The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behavior, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.

  49. Dr A: (I like that Ralph, it’s a keeper)

    I would argue that the Constitution of the Republic began dying during Reconstruction.

    You cannot plead innocent because a jury cannot find you innocent. A jury decides whether or not the prosecutor has made the case for guilt, or (my favorite) whether or not the prosecutor has jurisdiction. My conduct on one jury case has forever removed my name from consideration for future jury duty because I convinced 11 other jurors that the prosecutor had no jurisdiction and returned a not guilty verdict based on that finding.

    That is beside the point, I was abstractly addressing the Asheville Community. Even some of my conservative friends have been suckered into being “useful idiots” of the progressives, and standing with them without fully examining the facts of the case.

    They are enabling the strangling of a growing economy for Asheville and Buncombe County. They should be interested in promoting taller buildings that would increase population density and relieve sprawl.

    I’ll quote Quinn’s First Law to sum it all up:

    “Liberalism always generates the exact opposite of its stated intent.
    –Jim Quinn http://www.warroom.com/quick_start.php

  50. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Let’s make this simple for the mentally handicapped.

    Article three section one of the constitution says and I paraphrase JUDGES cannot have their salaries diminished IE taxed.
    Since all Supreme Court justices pay income tax it follows, they are not Article 3 Judges nor IS the Supreme Court that now operates in America legitimate. IS THIS EASY TO UNDERSTAND OR WHAT?
    All case law pour to 1948 says an article 3 court cannot hear administrate matters only matters at constitutional common law.
    Since the Supreme Court hears administrative matters all the time, they are not an Article 3 court.
    WHY ARE PEOPLE SO STUPID?

  51. I ask you again, what does this have to do with Gordon Smith and Stewart Coleman?

    Do you think adhering to a topic is within your abilities?

  52. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Reconstruction was the end; it took them until 1948 to destroy the whole thing. Lincoln being the father the Federal monster we now have

    The Federal Reserve System is unconstitutional, as only congress may coin money, not a private corporation created in 1913.
    Simply put no lawful money, and then there is no lawful government. THE WHOLE THING IS GONE

    Bobby you miss the point when you plead guilty or not guilty you are trying to prove a double negative. It’s impossible!

    The jury tries facts as to whether an accused violated some statue with a commercial bond associated with the transgression of that statue.

    This is rule by statutory law, an inferior law to the common law, which is the LAW.
    Incidentally you might like to know a statue is an idol, in Babylon, a statue was called a “Peter”.
    So all that bow down to idols IE statutory law are bowing down to Peters. Ralph is a statue .

  53. Dr A:

    How does it feel to be off your meds?

    Ralph:

    Just ignore the parts that are off-topic, or (preferably) the whole post. See Troll, Thread-Killer.

  54. Dr. A … the infamous troll under the bridge. Where is a good billy goat guff when we need one?

    here’s the plot (from the Wikipedia) for those who might not immediately recall the story:

    “The story introduces three male goats named Gruff of varying size and age, sometimes identified in the story as youngster, father and grandfather, but more often they are described as brothers. There is no grass left for them nearest where they live, so they must cross a river to enter a field where the land is still lush, but the only way across is by a bridge and it is guarded by a fearsome troll who eats any who pass that way. The youngest goat, knowing nothing of this, crosses the bridge and is threatened by the troll but is spared when he tells the troll that his brothers are larger and more gratifying as a feast. The middle goat sees that the youngest one has crossed and reaches the conclusion that the bridge must be safe after all, but when he crosses and the troll challenges him, he too tells him of his eldest brother. When the eldest and largest of them attempts to cross, the troll comes out to seize him but is gored by his horns and knocked into the river. From that time on the bridge is safe, and all three goats are able to live in the security and happiness of the new field.”

    apply the above to Dr. A. … now, Gordon, quit moping and get back to your argument or we will suggest Dr. A join the Hooligans.

  55. Dr A:

    Never presume to know where I am coming from, or what models I work with. If you had read my takedown of the Hegelian dialectic, you’d know better than accuse me of bilateral thinking.

    Google 5GW if you want to know my perspective.

    And you totally ignore my rebuttal that I was speaking in the abstract to the Asheville Community.

  56. if that is intended as an insult, it is quite insipid, Dr. A.

    why don’t you just stay on topic and and quit antagonizing people with long, rambling, off topic posts.

    you’d get a lot more respect that way.

    just a friendly tip.

  57. Jim Shura

    Criticism of other posters style will get you nothing but ire, Ralph.

  58. Dr. A. has no style and no substance, just trollish blathering off-topic. He thinks netiquette is a game played on lawns with mallets.

  59. William P Miller

    Ralph, you also noticed that Dr Anti…whatever, is a rude troll? -:) Actually, he is the evil twin brother of entopticon. His cousin is Eli, and they all three live under a bridge west of town.

    The Buncombe County Commissioners need to tell Coleman to either sell the stolen land back, or they will take it back through eminent domain. And if they don’t get that land back, my money is on ALL the encumbants being voted OUT of office come November. In fact, after voting, I will stand with a sign urging others to vote them out.

  60. Fellas, can’t you see by his photo?

    Dr A is the evil twin of Dick Cheney, and the subject of a government cover up because of the day he impersonated his brother while hunting in Texas. His goal was to get Cheney removed from office. As usual, his plan was foiled by the quicker thinking neoconcervatives. ;)

  61. William P Miller

    LOL T.P. Yes indeed. Isn’t it a hoot the way liberals demonize conservatives? It’s almost always perasonal with them. Not policy debate, just “those darned republicans are racist jerks”.

    Keep on keepin on Dr Anti…whatever. You are so entertaining! The sun is out. Time to come out from under your bridge! -:)

  62. travelah

    Dr A is just one of a small handful of libershrills seated at a round table (rather oblong shaped because some libershrills are more equal than others).

  63. david

    LOL T.P. Yes indeed. Isn’t it a hoot the way you people demonize everyone but yourselves? It’s almost always perasonal with them. Not policy debate, just “those darned yankees are racist jerks”.

    Keep on keepin on Nam Vet…whatever. You are so entertaining! The sun is out. Time to come out from under your bridge! -:)

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