Head of Asheville Liberty Dollar operation arrested, faces 45 years in prison

Asheville resident William Kevin Innes, known for running the local branch of the Liberty Dollar private currency, was arrested June 2 on charges of trying to pass off coins as U.S. currency. The arrest came as part of a countrywide sweep of the organization’s officials.

An announcement from the Justice Department alleges that Innes, along with Liberty Dollar founder Bernard von NotHaus and two other employees of the Liberty Services, the company that made the currency, were engaged in a conspiracy to pass off their product as legal tender.

The federal indictment also alleges that the intent of Liberty Services is to put the Liberty Dollar into circulation and have it compete with U.S. currency. Liberty Dollars are backed by precious metals (gold or silver), and Liberty Services tries to encourage businesses to accept them. The indictment further charges Innes and Nothaus with counts of mail fraud. Innes could face a maximum of 45 years in prison if convicted on all counts.

“When groups seek to undermine the U.S. currency system, the government is compelled to act. These coins are not government-produced coinage, yet purchasers were led to believe by those who made and sold them that they should be spent like U.S. Federal Reserve Notes,” Acting U.S. Attorney Edward Ryan declares in the announcement. “Such claims are in violation of federal law.”

This isn’t the first time Innes or the Liberty Dollar operation has faced federal heat. The affidavit for a 2007 federal raid on Liberty Services’ Evansville, Ind., headquarters listed Innes, and the order for that raid originated in Asheville. The affidavit also said this area was one of top centers for Liberty Dollar distribution in the country (the others being Austin, Texas, and Berryville, Ark.)

In the aftermath, Innes asserted that he has never said the Liberty Dollar are legal tender, has specifically shied away from using the word “coins” to describe them and had gone to local police to seek assurances that the activities of his organization were within the law.

“If we’re criminals, why were we going to the police and being out in the open?” Innes said at the time.

The legal status of the coins is murky, with some federal agencies issuing warnings against their use, while others have dismissed them as an issue. For example, in 2006, the U.S. Mint issued a statement saying that using the coins in place of standard currency was criminal. But in the same year, a Treasury Department official told media that if merchants wished to accept the coins, they were free to do so.

Local or private currencies are not unheard of — in specific towns or resorts, for example — and have not generally faced legal challenges. What differentiates the Liberty Dollar, however, is its nationwide reach and the precious metals in the product.

After his arrest, Innes made a brief appearance before a federal magistrate in Asheville and was ordered detained until a detention hearing in Charlotte, scheduled for today.

—David Forbes, staff writer

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72 thoughts on “Head of Asheville Liberty Dollar operation arrested, faces 45 years in prison

  1. travelah

    Big deal … the head of the Federal Reserve should be arrested for printing a trillion dollars of paper and passing that off as money.

  2. John Smolkin

    It is a big deal. Innes and other hippy freaks have turned Asheville into a freak capital. Our own “money”? How stupid can you get. I don’t want to see him get 45 years, but he should stop and desist, and MOVE. What are people thinking when they use their own hippy money to buy stuff? Those that do…I hope they move to San Francisco. Or whatever yankee city traveler is from.

  3. Ashley Sue

    Amen, travelah. I am not someone who personally chose to support the liberty dollar, but I do not see what grounds make it illegal. I know of electricians who barter their skill for a certain business owner who needed work done in return for services the newly opened boutique provided. Or store credits in place of payment. Etc. I hear Asheville actually even has a Time Bank, though I have never found the entire details regarding that.

    I understand the Fed works hard not to compromise our economic stability, but they are targeting the Liberty Dollar and not their own practices? Perhaps they can’t see the forest…

  4. Ashley Sue

    John,

    Truly not trying to be belligerent here, truly asking with a chill curious tone, but I am curious how you feel regarding the premise that the alternative currency is used by choice. Business owners can choose to accept it, or not. I don’t know of any businesses in the area that exclusively accept the Liberty Dollar.

    Honestly, I am not sure the intricacies of such an alternative currency, but I am not sure that it is such a threat either. You can choose to use it, or not. You can choose to barter, or not. You can choose to use traditional cash, or not… All I can figure is that using an alternative currency or bartering makes “keeping the books” more difficult for the IRS and the govt does not approve…

    Thoughts? Explanations? I’d love to know more of the true issue.

  5. Ashley Sue

    Thank you for asking some quality questions, Tim. Very nice.

  6. LOKEL

    Maybe we should go back to the “old” barter system- I’ll trade you what I grow or make for your services or products: no money involved, no taxes, no problems…. or maybe not, how would schools be funded, who would we pay for insurance, what would the Fed think of that?

  7. John

    What he was doing was clearly illegal and everyone knows it. Since the depression era laws were written, the US has one currency and the US Gov’t prints it …. regardless of anyone’s thoughts on the precarious financial position the US is in now.

    Innes was in this for personal gain. The sales pitch about being backed by hard assets and the patriotism angle were just that … a pitch to further his personal financial gain.

  8. EoGuy

    I normally sell my LD’s as collectibled but I have used them as barter for purchases.

    Liberty Services goes to GREAT LENGTHS to NOT call LD’s legal tender.

    Right on the silver pieces – they’re not coins (which is a legal term) – are the initials PVBC – Private Voluntary Barter Currency.

    Ron Paul submitted a bill to repeal those sections of the US Constitution which seems to say that only the government can make money but his bill died in Congress.

    What’s next – Disney Dollars?

    The government’s problem is that LD’s are suceeding too well. People prefer REAL SILVER to green paper which is worthless.

  9. Poor Kevin –
    I hope he doesn’t get such a harsh sentance. I support alternative forms of local currency, but where Kevin caught the eye of the Fed’s is by backing his money with something worth much more than current US Dollars. His Liberty Dollars were made with their actual weight in gold, silver, & copper – whereas we all know current federal standard is backed by the good word (& power) of the US and not much more. Circulating money that is worth more than official US Currency is a good idea in thought, but certainly not in practice. I’m going to hold onto my few Asheville Liberty Dollars, now they are worth even more in value.

  10. “When groups seek to undermine the U.S. currency system, the government is compelled to act. These coins are not government-produced coinage, yet purchasers were led to believe by those who made and sold them that they should be spent like U.S. Federal Reserve Notes,” Acting U.S. Attorney Edward Ryan declares in the announcement. “Such claims are in violation of federal law.”

    this statement by US Attorney Edward Ryan is a load of HOOEY! 8-)

    first of all, the current US currency system is ILLEGAL. according to the US Constitution (Sect 8:5), Congress alone has the power to coin money and regulate the value thereof… NOT some PRIVATE bank called the “Federal Reserve”, which is no more “Federal” than “Federal Express”. this provision does not give Congress the power to transfer this power.

    so if the FED is going to bring up NORFED (Liberty Dollar) officers on such a charge, then it MUST ALSO do likewise for the Federal Reserve and all of Congress & the President for allowing this crime to continue generation after generation.

    in all my dealings with Kevin Innes, as a representative of NORFED, i have never been led to believe that Liberty Dollars “should be spent like US Federal Reserve Notes,” but that some business locally might accept them as payment.

    the following statement made by David Forbes is very telling regarding government fraud:

    “The legal status of the coins is murky, with some federal agencies issuing warnings against their use, while others have dismissed them as an issue. For example, in 2006, the U.S. Mint issued a statement saying that using the coins in place of standard currency was criminal. But in the same year, a Treasury Department official told media that if merchants wished to accept the coins, they were free to do so.”

    i hope the Federal Reserve will be in the spotlight over this matter. there are now nearly 200 House supporters of the “Transparency Act of 2009” — Ron Paul’s “Audit the Fed” bill.

    it would be NICE if Shuler would sign on. what Congress member who is on the side of TRUTH would NOT want the Federal Reserve to be transparent?

  11. Thanks JBo. You make some good points.

    You may appreciate this excerpt from Atlas Shrugged”

    “Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men’s protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked, ‘Account Overdrawn.’ ”

    http://snipr.com/js12y

  12. For more information on the criminality and excesses of the American Federal Reserve central banking system, see the just-published book by Elgin Groseclose entitled “The Story of the Federal Reserve.”

    http://snipr.com/js2e2

    “Elgin Groseclose, an eminent monetary economist in the 20th century, rips the roof off the Federal Reserve in this wonderful history that takes us from the Fed’s founding to the 1960s. He shows that the gap between the promise and the reality is shockingly massive, so much so that the Federal Reserve must be considered one of the greatest failures in the history of public policy.”

  13. also relative to the matter of how the US Federal Reserve system, including the current wages based tax system, is anathema to liberty, check out this YouTube video entitled, “The Philosophy of Liberty”:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFWr4GB6lqE

    if you tend to like it, share it with everyone you know.

    peace in liberty…

    8-)

    bbc

  14. John Smolkin

    “Mr. Smolkin: Who should be authorized to coin money?”

    Well timpeck, check your own pockets. Look at the coins. I do believe the US government minted those coins. And US government money is the only official currency in this land. You disagree? Go start your own country SOMEWHERE ELSE. Asheville is in North Carolina, US of A. And will remain this way regardless of the assorted hippies and freaks who taken advantage of our Southern hospitality and moved here.

  15. “Well timpeck, check your own pockets. Look at the coins.”

    OK. I’m looking at a one dollar bill taken from my pocket. It says across the top “FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE.” What does yours say?

    The dollar has lost over 90% of its value since 1913; the year the unconstitutional Federal Reserve Act was signed into law.

    I look forward to you other answers.

  16. EoGuy

    Well, some of the “coins” in MY pockets are Liberty Dollars.

    I have some from 1999 to 2009 including Ron Paul and Peace dollars along with general issue one dollar coppers.

    I have 100 Tea Party copper dollars coming – if the gumment doesn’t steal them like they did the last ones.

  17. EoGuy

    Ron Paul submitted a bill to repeal those sections of the US Constitution which seems to say that only the government can make money but his bill died in Congress

    OOPS! Make that died in committee.

  18. “Asheville is in North Carolina, US of A. And will remain this way regardless of the assorted hippies and freaks who taken advantage of our Southern hospitality and moved here.” — John Smolkin

    excuse me, Mr. Smolkin, when you use the term, “Southern hospitality,” are you implying it to mean that southern folk are ignorant to the fact that the US Federal Government has been breaking the law since 1913?

    as Tim said, the US Dollar says “Federal Reserve Note”, which is NOT a US Government organization, but a private bank which currently operates in secret — not accountable to We the People of America, nor even Congress!

    NOTICE: US Constitution Section 8, which grants Congress its enumerated powers:

    “5. To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;”

    Congress has not been governing the coinage of money since 1913, because it has illegally transferred its power to coin money and regulate the value thereof to a private bank.

    therefore, if it’s illegal for a private organization to offer alternate currencies, then it is likewise illegal for the Federal Reserve to do so.

    ALSO NOTICE: US Constitution Section 10, which limits the States:

    “1. No state shall … make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts…”

    Congress has allowed this private bank to devalue this money so that it is no longer backed up by gold nor silver, and now apparently mandates that no other currency can be used.

    therefore, this private Federal Reserve Bank has gone beyond even the limitations of the States, issuing “funny (phony) money” to be used for tender in payment of debts.

    if you persist in advocating such a blatant disregard for the rule of law, truth, justice, and liberty, perhaps it is YOU who should consider moving…?

  19. John Smolkin

    Guys, there are much bigger fish to fry than this argument about alternative currency. I feel compassion for the man above and I hope he doesn’t have to do jail time, which seems a bit excessive. But he should cease and desist.

    Now, the important fish to fry. Helping the less fortunate. Helping keep drugs, gangs and grafitti from polluting our dear town. Opposing injustice where it is seen. Opposing over-development of Asheville. Just to name a few.

    Alternative currencies are confusing, and evidently illegal. Let’s move on.

  20. AleG

    Mr. Smolkin’s apparent worship of abusive Federal power renders him a most unconvincing Son of the South. Perhaps he is the descendant of carpetbaggers? Perhaps the original seed of his family was a piece of Sherman’s salt? Or perhaps thinking beyond hatin’ on “them damned hippies” (a truly immense “fish to fry”) is too strenuous an intellectual challenge for him…

  21. “Guys, there are much bigger fish to fry than this argument about alternative currency.” — John Smolkin

    this is not an argument. nor is this merely a discussion about alternative currencies.

    this is a matter of a fraudulent — ILLEGAL — economic system at the highest level of government.

    if you don’t think this affects our locality — ANY locality in America — then you just might be seriously deceived.

    you also presume alternative currencies are illegal because a US Federal Government Attorney says so. do you always believe the government tells the truth? LOL! 8-)

    it’s up to We the People to choose between taking the red or blue pill. 8-)

  22. John

    I’m interested to hear everyone’s alternative to the Federal Reserve. Should there be no manipulation of the money supply?

  23. i’m not an economist guru by any stretch of the imagination, but regarding a Federal Reserve alternative, i would imagine we could go back to some sort of currency backed with something of value, actually coined and regulated by Congress (We the People).

    however, i think competing currencies would be optimal. i don’t think there was ever any kind of national opposition to competing currencies… that is, before there was an “income tax”, and certainly before the income tax morphed into the “wage tax”.

    it seems most of the draconian economic system we have today all stems from the legislation which occurred in 1913. from there, it just got more and more convoluted and complicated.

    but regardless of alternatives, we should at least have the ability as a people to audit the Federal Reserve. perhaps then we would have a better idea of how corrupt this system really is.

    for example, check this out:

    Federal Reserve Cannot Account for $9 Trillion
    http://www.independent.org/blog/?p=2339

  24. “I’m interested to hear everyone’s alternative to the Federal Reserve.”

    Thanks John for your question.

    The alternative to the Federal Reserve is economic liberty.

    Without the Federal Reserve, I can take one dollar to the grocery store and return home with 20 dollars worth of groceries. As it is now, I retain less and less purchasing power in the dollars I have earned — with no end to currency debasement in sight.

    Without the Federal Reserve, free unhampered markets determine interest rates. Interest rates are the price of borrowed capital over time — the engine of commerce, innovation and jobs.

    Without the Federal Reserve I can redeem currency for its equivalent in gold.

    Without the Federal Reserve, my personal wealth is 95% greater than it is with it. Inflation is a tax on the poor.

    Without the Federal Reserve, the economy is authentic and not a fraudulent manipulation that benefits the politically connected.

    Without the Federal Reserve, America is free.

  25. John

    I am an economics major at least. I studied oil shocks, the gold standard and Keynesian (The guy who thought up Gov’t spending stimulis plans) economics my whole time in school.

    You have to be able to managed the money supply. The amount of gold the government owned was a pivotal factor in the equation. The economy grew too large and gold is needed for to many other things. We spent much of our gold during WW2 buying war goods. It would have crushed our economy to be on the gold standard then. I could have never lasted for a variety of reasons.

    Competing currencies would cause more problems than they solve. You may not like the Fed, but its our Fed and does pretty good job at a very difficult task.

  26. John Smolkin

    “you also presume alternative currencies are illegal because a US Federal Government Attorney says so. do you always believe the government tells the truth? LOL! 8-)it’s up to We the People to choose between taking the red or blue pill. 8-)” -bbcinfantacy

    LOL, lot’s of bluster here behind folks’ keyboards. Anyone of you feel like taking real world steps to back up your whining? I think y’all should print up your own currency, then call the Secret Service and say “hey you don’t like it….arrest me! The “people” will back me up”. “People”? You call hippy freaks “people”? LOL, go get em freaks. Walk your talk.

  27. John, currency is a good, like any other. Its a very important good, as it helps facilitate trade considerably, but it a good, a product, nonetheless. The government should have no more control over currency than it should over, say, shoes. Shoes are very important to modern life (To most people, anyway. There are a few of the shoeless in Asheville, just as presumably there are those who subsist purely on barter, and more power to them.) Would you want the government to have complete control over what kind of shoes you’re allowed to use, and to license one shoe provider with the monopoly on making and selling shoes?
    Governments seek to maintain control over the money supply because it makes it easier to rob us.

  28. travelah

    Poor Johnny Cullem Shmolky … don’t you have a stash of confederate money in a box buried in your back yard just for the day when all the “yankees” leave town?

    The Federal Reserve prints all our currency and legally so. Congress established the Federal Reserve and set it up as a quasi-public agency for the purpose of managing the money supply and interstate banking system. The legality of the system is not in question by any serious minded observers. What is questionable is the Federal efforts directed at the Liberty group and what purpose they might have in this. This strikes me as a complete waste of time.

  29. Mister Blister

    The problem is he was designing money to look like Federal Reserve Bills. Plenty of communities in America have printed their own money (without prosecution) but they don’t make it look like the official currency of the United States of America. This guy had a good idea (an alternate currency backed by gold)) but was not too bright about the exectution. “Trust God” instead of “In God We Trust”, using the same fonts, the Liberty figure, etc. It’s like making a new car company called “Toytoa” with initial model offerings named the “Carolla” and the “Cammy”. You are just begging to be sued.

  30. John Smolkin

    “The problem is he was designing money to look like Federal Reserve Bills. Plenty of communities in America have printed their own money (without prosecution) but they don’t make it look like the official currency of the United States of America.”

    There’s the rub here isn’t it Mr Blister? The guy should be lucky he wasn’t charged with counterfeiting. Say, I’ve got an idea. Take an over-developed area of the US that isn’t worth a darn and re-make it into a country unto itself. Take Taxachuteas for instance. A wasted experiment in socialism and over-development if there ever was one. It’s so bad it’s citizens have “traveled” down here to show us how to do things right.

    Yes, start a new country in ole Mass and have a “liberty” currency backed up organic produce still in the fields. Sustainable? Not really, but it sure sounds cool doesn’t it? Let’s just cut out the colloquialisms up in Boston. You know, where travelers are “travelahs”. Where cars are “cahs”. And bars are “bahs”. Geez, sounds like everybody up there has Barney Frank’s prolictivities and has their mouth full. Gay marriage anyone?

  31. John

    Nobody is on the gold standard any more. It only lasted a few decades when everyone used it. Then the depression kicked in and those who got rid of the gold standard the fastest got over the depression faster. That sounds like a correlation to me.

    I think the concept is attractive, but the practicality didn’t work.

    Those who are bitterly against the Fed come close to placing themselves in the conspiracy theorist category. Some secret panel of 6 that no one knows who they are who are really calling the shots and consolidating power and money.

  32. EoGuy

    “The problem is he was designing money to look like Federal Reserve Bills.”

    WRONG!

    All warehouse receipts – which is what they are – look NOTHING like FRN’s.

    Warehouse receipts were issued by the private mint in Idaho – which stored all the physical precious metals – including mine (which the FBI and Secret Service stole from me!)

  33. regarding the “legality of the [Federal Reserve] system”, MANY serious minded observers disagree.

    MANY Americans assert that the current economic system is ILLEGAL, along with MANY other actions of the Federal Government. a few transgressions of the Constitution include:

    1. War Powers Clauses
    2. Gun Control Laws
    3. Federal Income Tax
    4. Federal Reserve
    5. USA PATRIOT Act
    6. Illegal Immigration
    7. North American Union

    (source: http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTPLawsuit/SignPetitions.htm)

    of course, the US Supreme Court has refused to hear these cases because it is as corrupt as any other part of this so called, “US Federal Government of America”.

    the President does not have the power to circumvent the Constitution — if the Constitution is to be altered, it must be done through the amendment process. therefore, any “laws” which are passed in such a way is ILLEGAL.

    please, someone tell me… what proof does anyone have that the country in which we currently live is still “America” — that America has not been taken over by criminals? is it because we have the American flag? is it because the federal government calls itself “American”?

    it sure isn’t because we have a Constitutionally limited government, for the government doesn’t even obey the law! what happened to such things as “innocent until proven guilty”, or the “right to a speedy trial”? so now, folks like Kevin Innes are carted off to jail as if they are guilty of a crime, and then to boot they have to sit there in a cell for months awaiting their trial.

    does this sound like the protocol for a government alleging to be “America — the land of the free”? give me a freaking break!

    … but i digress…

    is the Liberty Dollar legal? according to their website, Claudia Dickens, spokeswoman for the U.S. Treasury Department’s Bureau of Engraving & Printing, stated that according to the Treasury, The Liberty Dollar is legitimate:

    “There’s nothing illegal about this,” Dickens said after the Treasury Department’s legal team reviewed the currency. “As long as it doesn’t say legal tender, there’s nothing wrong with it.”

    regarding Mister Blister’s post today, it is my understanding that “Lady Liberty”, the words “Dollar”, “Liberty”, “Trust” & “God” are not owned by the US Federal Government. no where on the Liberty Dollars do they say “Federal Reserve Note” or “US Treasury”, or “Legal Tender”, etc.

    yes, i agree that NORFED’s execution might not have been savvy. however, that depends on their intent.

    from what i understand, their intent was ALWAYS to compete with the FED for the purpose of bringing about its end. even the name “NORFED” is to stand for: “National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act and Internal Revenue Code”.

    the idea was to begin circulating an alternative currency to the FAKE & FRAUDULENT Federal Reserve Note. if the Liberty Dollar circulation grew large enough, it would be more sought after than the phony FRN’s, and hopefully run the FED out of business through NORMAL competition.

    but OBVIOUSLY, the FED does not want competition, because it knows it is operating a fraudulent scheme which most Americans have purchased hook, line & sinker.

    i have personally objected to their usage of the dollar sign ($) and usage of the word “dollar” because it can be misleading to a person deciding upon receiving the Liberty Dollar as payment. in fact, most proponents of alternative currencies i know locally stopped purchasing the LD’s when they jumped from a $20 suggested retail to $50. only fools would purchase a one ounce silver coin for 3 times its value in silver!

    is their practice deceptive? i cannot really say for sure. but if it is ruled that it is, then it would be a crime to not rule likewise against the Federal Reserve.

    it appears as though the matter is up for debate, even among members of various government agencies. therefore, it seems extremely oppressive to throw NORFED representatives in jail for months on alleged charges!

    i HOPE this will all turn out to NOT be a waste of time. i HOPE this will further help bring the illegality of the Federal Reserve system into the public spotlight.

    however, we can expect the government and mainstream media to hide the truth of the matter from the public, who is now largely welcoming a nanny government more than ever before.

  34. EoGuy

    “in fact, most proponents of alternative currencies i know locally stopped purchasing the LD’s when they jumped from a $20 suggested retail to $50.”

    It’s back down to $20 now and will stay there until silver goes over $16/oz for 45 days straight.

  35. John Smolkin

    And don’t forget the sock puppet “The (pfk)”. She is about as anti-Federal Reserve as they come. Gotta have something to whine about, might as well be something as big as the federal government, right?

  36. Dionysis

    “OK, they are “all over the place.” Is that your point? Is that it?”

    Yeah, that’s my point. What’s yours, other than chronic whining about taxes and promoting a goofy pseudo-philosophy, regardless of the topic?

  37. John

    2 Questions:

    1. How much money did the founder and Innes make doing this?

    2. What has happened to the ‘redeemablility’ of the coins now? Are they all the sudden a lot less liquid?

  38. 2 Answers:

    1. i don’t believe this matter has anything to do with how much NORFED has made from their business.

    but really, whose business is it besides each individual how much money they make? it’s not mine, nor yours, nor the FED’s for that matter… although they have largely duped the masses into believing it IS their business. so much for freedom in “America”, and the masses seem to largely accept (wage) slavery — we truly reap what we sow.

    2. actually, several of the Liberty Dollars have increased in value since the FED NAZIS have stolen them from NORFED and from the purchasers in this so called, “free market”.

    regarding local ‘redeem-ability’, apparently several businesses who used to take them no longer do because of the extra inflated “suggested retail” — that is an example of a free market in action… individuals deciding whether or not to do business with one another. simple, and it works!

    regarding comments on this thread about “chronic whining”, please grow up. if you care not about rule of law, then you don’t have to stand up for it. but those of us who do give a damn about the preservation of liberty will continue to stand up for it!

  39. John

    How much money they made is totally relevant to the possibility that Innes and the Founders used the Liberty dollar concept to prey on those who have major issues with the Fed so that they could make big money. Read just a little on the gold standard and you will see it was an abject failure.

    Now they are in Dumb Crook News headlines.

    I project that the Liberty dollar has future liquidity and valuation problems more significant than what you indicated is already happening where coin owners can’t use them with some local retailers.

    I am a free market guy. The lesson to learn from this liquidity problem is that the free market is rejecting the Liberty coin. What good are they if you can’s spend them? Innes and the others indicted duped fellow Americans for their own personal gain.

    Maybe the coins will look good in a picture frame or shadow box.

  40. Stepanie Shannonberg

    Can’t you people find something more important to complain about? Regular money is good enough for me.

  41. “Can’t you people find something more important to complain about?”

    I tried finding something more important to complain about than the federal government’s ongoing violation my individual rights, but I couldn’t find anything.

    “Regular money is good enough for me.”

    I don’t know what this means. The dollar has lost 95% of its value since 1913 due to inflation of the money supply. Inflation is a tax.

    Furthermore, the “regular money” that is good enough for you is the collapsing U.S. dollar. It is not backed by anything of value other than the diminishing worldwide confidence that it can continue to be used as a basis for transactions.

    I’m sorry these grave matters do not interest you. Rather than insert yourself into someone else’s thread to complain about their misguided focus, how about start your own thread that addresses all of those things you consider so much more important than economic liberty and individual rights.

    For example, what’s on TV tonight?

  42. Audit the Fed Bill Hits 207 Co-Sponsors
    http://www.cnbc.com/id/31206243/

    H.R. 1207, The Federal Reserve Transparency Act of 2009, yesterday surged past the 200 co-sponsor mark, nearing a majority in the U.S. House of Representatives. The bill, introduced by Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX), now has 207 cosponsors including 51 Democrats…

  43. H.R. 1207 Passes 218 Co-sponsors
    http://www.campaignforliberty.com/#19818

    Here are the latest names:

    -Rep. David Loebsack
    -Rep. Gary Miller
    -Rep. Frank Wolf
    -Rep. Corrine Brown
    -Rep. Jackie Speier
    -Rep. Bruce Braley
    -Rep. Donna Edwards
    -Rep. Bobby Bright
    -Rep. Anh “Joseph” Cao
    -Rep. Jared Polis
    -Rep. Dennis Kucinich
    -Rep. Howard “Buck” McKeon
    -Rep. Howard Coble
    -Rep. Jean Schmidt
    -Rep. Heath Shuler

  44. Rob Close

    y’know, i was at a liberty dollar talk at UNCA years ago, and have talked to mr. innes about it since then – and not once was i confused whether it was legal currency or not.

    i didn’t this as competing currency, so much as an alternative one. and the comment about “disney dollars” being next – that sadly makes sense, although they’d never do it.

    and really, if we couldn’t afford to be on the gold standard – how could these guys afford to be using precious metals to begin with? i.e. yes, i think USA could be using silver coinage or something else intelligent – anyone have the numbers to examine this concept?

  45. John

    I’m all in favor of auditing an Gov’t or Quasi-Gov’t institution.

  46. The Piffster

    Tim Peck. Get a hobby. You’ve got to be bored out of your skull to get worked up about this. The gal above who said regular money is good enough for her has it right.

  47. “How much money they made is totally relevant to the possibility that Innes and the Founders used the Liberty dollar concept to prey on those who have major issues with the Fed so that they could make big money.” — John

    John, i agree that passing currency which is marked with a $DOLLAR sign amount far more than its actual worth, even if it it somehow marked as, “Suggested Retail”, is misleading at best and fraudulent at worst.

    however, this is the only potentially legal and reasonable charge the FEDs can make against NORFED/LD.

    regardless, does this POTENTIAL crime warrant Kevin (and others) to be held in jail until the trial comes up (i’ve heard perhaps in December) and be faced with charges that could put him away for the rest of his life?

    further, what is the difference between what NORFED was doing and what the FEDERAL RESERVE has been doing since 1913? they’re passing phony money as an IOU which can not be redeemed for anything of real value — it’s worthless and has been for some time now!

    “Read just a little on the gold standard and you will see it was an abject failure.” — John

    who here is advocating the return to the gold standard? the free market libertarians i know (and i know many) all advocate competing currencies, not just ONE.

    “What good are they if you can’s spend them?” — John

    this from a “free market guy”? LOL! they’re SILVER & GOLD! Liberty Dollars will be worth something LONG after FRNs are no longer taken (so long as gold & silver are still worth something at that point).

    i find it very interesting that so many posters here seem to place so much faith in the Federal Reserve Notes — i’m somewhat astonished!

    i strongly suggest watching the non-partisan movie, IOUSA. it’s free to watch online.

  48. “I’m all in favor of auditing an Gov’t or Quasi-Gov’t institution.” — John

    thanks John! although we seem to disagree regarding the merit of alternative currencies backed by something of value as opposed to phony fiat “Monopoly money”, i’m very thankful to see that you do agree with oversight of the FED.

    i HOPE others understand the dire necessity for economic oversight and transparency in general. this “new” administration likes to use buzzwords & buzzphrases as much as any previous, but are reluctant to bring real “change” and “transparency” to fruition. it’s just business as usual from DC.

    for “The Piffster” and anyone else curious, neither Tim Peck nor myself are getting “worked up” about anything. we libertarian minded Americans are simply striving to further educate ourselves, and our fellow Americans. we feel it is a good idea to spread the education of liberty and advocate other do likewise.

    again, in case some folks missed it, i suggest watching this 8 minute video clip on YouTube entitled “The Philosophy of Liberty” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFWr4GB6lqE). it’s a good short introduction regarding some of the basic fundamentals of liberty.

    also, if anyone wants to further engage themselves in liberty activism, check out our local Liberty Asheville group @ LibertyAsheville.org.

  49. John

    Infinity … who was mentioning the gold standard?

    Tim Peck:

    “Without the Federal Reserve I can redeem currency for its equivalent in gold.”

    Also, the Liberty Dollar talks about being backed by precious metals.

    The Fed does a pretty good job, but they are susceptible to political influences. Gerald Ford got them to make moves that worked out badly during the oil shocks … ask Jimmy Carter … and recently we saw Washington DC influence them to keep rates low to affect the housing market (the Dems) and to keep the economy going after 9/11 (George W and the Dems) … which was a very significant economic event. We probably should have let things happen naturally then.

    We have to have a monetary policy tool … just like the rest of the world. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.

  50. John

    Here’s my favorite analogy regarding monetary policy. I made this one up myself:

    Its like driving a big boat. You feel like you need a course correction, so you turn the wheel some. Not much happens for a bit. You turn the wheel too much and a little while later you are headed towards shore and can’t do anything about it, but crank the wheel back the other way. But how much? So you crank it some and nothing happens for a bit again, but if you went too much, you find yourself headed towards the other bank … no pun intended.

    Its a finesse game. Every country fights the same fight. How much to turn the wheel to keep headed straight. Short term over reactions … usually politically motivated … typically turn out bad.

    If an audit shows that some in the Fed said that we need to take our lumps and do our best, but politicians said otherwise and influenced a bad decision, the US needs to hear about it big time and those responsible need to face serious consequences. One of the reasons the Fed is not an real Gov’t agency is to deflect the politicians. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work all the time.

    We still need the Fed. The alternatives have risks way beyond what politicians can do to us.

  51. HR 1207 UPDATE:

    H.R. 1207 crosses the 50% mark – Hits 222 Cosponsors!
    Posted: 11 Jun 2009 03:22 PM PDT

    The Campaign For Liberty announced today that Ron Paul’s HR 1207 House Bill passed the needed 218 sponsors and is up to 222! Dennis Kucinich was sponsor number #218. Read more at the Campaign For Liberty website here: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=19818

    In case you haven’t seen this great video of Ron Paul explaining why we need HR 1207 here is the link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYiHE35kCQI

    the list of “Federal Reserve haters” is growing every day!

  52. hey John,

    but does Tim’s statement about redeeming real money for gold mean that he ONLY supports the “gold standard”? i know Tim… he supports competing currencies backed by something of value, typically gold & silver, but not limited to just those two metals.

    but really, in the case of the Federal Reserve, i don’t think we’re talking about a normal “baby”, but more on the order of Damien from the Omen! 8-)

    OK, let’s at least start by auditing it and regain control over it by We the People (as according to law), before the US Dollar entirely collapses and we are forced to move to a more global currency, which is on the table among the globalists at this point.

  53. John

    We’ll have to agree to disagree on backing currency with precious metals, but I whole heartedly agree with auditing the @#$% out of the Fed to limit as much as possible political influences.

  54. John

    My concern with competing currencies is this: One will always win out over the others. Or one will totally fail while others survive. Even without government intervention. Those who have the looser, loose big time. There is no way that any average citizen can do the economic analysis on which is the best to use or not use.

  55. francois Manavit

    My concern is for Kevin .
    Is he in Jail ? I always liked him.Idealists always are my favorite .I warned him several time about the Mountain he wanted to climb .
    45years for an idea?

  56. > Is there enough precious
    > metal to back our economy?

    First, our economy would not be backed by metals. Our economy is backed by wealth, production and savings. Money is only a medium of exchange. It is money that would be backed by metals.

    Second, the amount of metals is not relevant. The dollar needn’t be pegged to any particular metal or any particular amount of it. What is important is that the dollar be pegged to something of value. Preferably the best thing; that is, something that is already valuable, that retains value, and that is historically and universally valued. Pegging the dollar to a gold standard, or any standard, is what prevents the artificial inflation of the money supply.

    This is why FDR took us off the gold standard. The country had become bankrupt by 1933 and the gold standard represented an obstacle to big government spending. Dropping the standard allowed the Fed to print fiat money to fund interventionist programs and the impending war. Unfortunately, inflating the money supply with fiat currency debases all currency, new and old, over time. Continued currency inflation will result in a complete collapse of the dollar. Which is happening now.

    Money, credit, banking and inflation are complex subjects and I am not a scholar. I recommend the book THEORY OF MONEY AND CREDIT by Mises for the best and most comprehensive analysis: http://mises.org/books/tmc.pdf

  57. Piffy!

    [b]OL, lot’s of bluster here behind folks’ keyboards. Anyone of you feel like taking real world steps to back up your whining? I think y’all should print up your own currency, then call the Secret Service and say “hey you don’t like it….arrest me! The “people” will back me up”. “People”? You call hippy freaks “people”? LOL, go get em freaks. Walk your talk. [/b]

    Hey, you delusional Pseudo-Southerner–You might notice the people you are calling “hippie freaks” are mainly a bunch of card carrying Libertarians, and that the Federal Reserve you are defending is located very far NORTH of your precious locale.

    In fact, I find your vehement and pre-determined defense of the Federal Reserve quite in conflict with your other personalities posts on these boards regarding Southern Independence and Northern Influence.

    Perhaps you better create yet another moniker (Rhonda Velour, Nam Vet, William P. Miller, Vinnie Barbarino, etc) before you post on any other topics, just so that you dont contradict anything you’ve stated in this thread.

  58. Piffy!

    [b]And don’t forget the sock puppet “The (pfk)”. She is about as anti-Federal Reserve as they come. Gotta have something to whine about, might as well be something as big as the federal government, right? [/b]

    wow. I hadnt even posted on this thread when you posted this non-sequitur, you multiple personality stalker you. It must be hard for you to want to be me, and yet not be able to.

    Thanks for all the great info, everyone above. Even the folks i generally disagree with have made some incredibly insightful points.

    And it’s also been enjoyable seeing everyone tear Cullen’s bizarre ‘logic’ to threads.

    thanks for that too.

  59. John

    It looks like Ron Paul may finally get his way and the Fed might actually get audited. I’m sure the audit will be rife with politics and cya by the auditors and congress.

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