The article on the recent area ICE raids and immigrant arrests in WNC was very powerful. To hear of people in our community with no criminal records cowering in fear of going to the grocery store is shocking. Kudos to the good folks at BeLoved House for helping to alleviate some of their fears and suffering [as reported in the April 20 Citizen Times article, “Asheville Volunteers Work to Feed Families Hiding from ICE”].
Make America great again? These days I can hardly recognize this country. Land of the free and home of the brave? Maybe the Trump Team should manage their little hypocrisy problem here by covering the Statue of Liberty with a “huge” shroud. At least that would be honest.
— Charlie Flynn Weaverville
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40 thoughts on “Letter: Effect of ICE raids is shocking”
MountainStrong
The issue at hand isn’t that the raids occurred. Had the people that are afraid entered the country through legal means, there should be absolutely no reason to be in fear. If you are here illegally, then yes, there probably is that fear. They made a conscious decision at some point to break the laws of the country they are seeking to come to.
This would be like you having a basement and someone decides to live in your basement without permission. They may never break anything, steal anything, or do anything to stand out, but they’re not supposed to be there. If said person was at their job and was speaking to someone and was like “wow, I snuck into this guys basement and I’m living there without them knowing about. I hope they don’t catch me, I’m terrified they will!”
B.E.Vickroy
If some see in-migration regulations as hateful or “un-American”, perhaps a look at LEGAL immigration stats through the decades will be helpful. Following the “Great Wave” of immigration [1.5 million in 1907], the parents of those who became known as the “Greatest Generation” cut immigration to a trickle. WHY? To “Americanize” through the melting pot, those newcomers. We have not followed their wise example since 1963, and reap the results. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/us-immigration-trends#history
luther blissett
Oh, another one repeating the lie that the immigration changes of the 1920s were about deliberate assimilation and not about racist white people pulling up the ladder. (They were happy to let in new immigrants as long as they were white, and especially if they had relatives in the US, i.e. chain migration.)
B.E.Vickroy
Hi Luther [plz call me Barb] I had a perfectly erudite answer to you comment and then my hand tremors sent it off into computer dit-dot-land. And my 81 year old brain cells can’t recall my arguments. [but trust me [?] the verbiage was outstanding! [citing my Grandfather Bartechko’s experiences with the ‘melting pot’ and the resistance toward [white] Slavs by other ‘[white] folks as an impetus to his becoming Americanized. I remember how my sister and I snickered at the tears in his eyes as he daily raised the flag at his home. Now, in our 80’s we understand his emotion and devotion to this nation.] Tho it is somewhat off-subject, may I recommend a book about the immigration experience of a Greek boy following WW2.
“A PLACE FOR US: Eleni’s family in America ” by Nicholas Gage. It’s a good read. [trust me][again] https://setinthepast.wordpress.com/2015/03/21/a-place-for-us-by-nicholas-gage/
luther blissett
Hi Barb: I’ll be a bit less sharp in my reply.
The 1924-1963 immigration regime used national quotas based upon the birthplaces of immigrants in the 1910 census. This meant that Europeans could get visas relatively easily, especially those from western and northern Europe, while immigration from elsewhere was squeezed. It certainly helped assimilate non-Protestant Europeans — it spans the time from Al Smith to JFK — but so did a willingness to give those people access to college and cheap mortgages.
B.E.Vickroy
Hi Luther – you thought my comments were “sharp”? Meaning “right on point” or “harsh”? My Grandfather was from Eastern Europe. I guess he just squeaked by the “racist ” barriers to all but Western and Northern Europe. Were there some reactionary motives in some immigration law? YES. But what does that have to do with with enforcing our current laws that allow more legal immigrants than all other nations combined? BTW, “access to college and cheap mortgages” followed WW2 for the GREATEST GENERATION who defeated many of the ‘ISMS’ that sought to enslave mankind.
dyfed
I’m generally in favor of easy and unrestricted immigration. That said, it’s absurd to claim that illegal immigrants have “no criminal records” when their very presence in the country logically requires that they commit a criminal offense!
luther blissett
Unlawful presence is a civil offense, not a crime. By that goofy logic, illegal parking is also a crime.
B.E.Vickroy
Luther … parking is a city or county ordinance, but even so, repeated violation of parking laws can lead to serious – criminal – charges. Immigration, on the other hand, is under FEDERAL authority and violation of most federal laws can be criminal. Repeatedly flouting tax laws can land you in jail. Ditto for other federal jurisdictions as bank robbery, identity theft, tampering with the mail, etc. Parking and immigration are an apple’n oranges comparison.
Jason
USA 2018=East Germany 1974
B.E.Vickroy
Hey Jason — Does your comparison of the USA to East Germany refer to the wall that Pres. Trump has advocated? Their wall was to keep people IN. Ours [if we ever get it] will keep people [& drugs] OUT.
Jason
Partially…
More so the fact that ICE is essentially the STASI sweeping up Jews, gays, whomever not tall and blonde and getting rid of them…
Are you suggesting that the Stasi; Would not have shot West Berliners trying to enter East Berlin?
B.E.Vickroy
Jason – you piqued my curiosity about how many people were shot while crossing from West to East Berlin. I found the following: “During the history of the Berlin Wall (1961 to 1989), nearly 80 people were killed trying to cross from East to West Berlin. In the nearly 30 years that the wall existed, however, no one was ever shot trying to enter East Berlin. ” But the guards were pretty touchy about border/wall crossers from East to West. For example: “On August 17, 1962, two young men from East Berlin attempted to cross the wall. One was successful in climbing the last barbed wire fence and, though suffering numerous cuts, made it safely to West Berlin. While horrified West German guards watched, the second young man was shot by machine guns on the East Berlin side. He fell but managed to stand up again, reach the wall, and begin to climb over. More shots rang out. The young man was hit in the back, screamed, and fell backwards off of the wall. For nearly an hour, he lay bleeding to death and crying for help. West German guards threw bandages to the man, while the East German security men seemed content to let the young man die. He finally did die, and East German guards scurried to where he lay and removed his body. ” I don’t think that even the most radical stretch can compare ICE to East German guards.
BTW Our immigration laws/measures pale in comparison to Mexico’s. snip from Mexico’s constitution:”Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118)” – “Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law” Either pragmatic laws or racist targeting of “the OTHER” Maybe a ‘potaaayto or potawwwto thing?[http://humanevents.com/2006/05/08/mexicos-immigration-law-lets-try-it-here-at-home/
boatrocker
History will judge us quite harshly if history books are even allowed on library shelves in 2020.
ICE is the 2018 version of the reservation system for First Nation folks with additional ingredients
of Japanese internment camps from WWII.
Lulz
LOL really? Seems to me people are starting to become tribal because of the insanity leftist pedal. In this case though, sellouts for votes is akin to treason. And by all counts, they are guilty of sedition.
15% of the population of Guatemala is here in the US. Why? So buffoon leftist can take advantage of cheap labor? You people are the modern day slave owners.
boatrocker
Sorry, but my ancestors fought to preserve the Union and free the slaves.
And voting lefty= treason/sedition?
Ohhhhhh kay then.
Enlightened Enigma
the statue of liberty has nothing to do with illegal immigration which is a federal CRIME.
THANKS to ICE for doing the job our Sheriff just won’t do … nor the next one probably either …
Stan Hawkins
What you are really saying is that you are for “open borders” and redefining what it means to be a country. The problem with that premise is, you have no idea what the consequences of those policies would be.
This is why society requires structure. What would be your solution to the chaos that would ensue is the real question? What other laws would you be willing to overlook?
Lulz
They tear down the supposed structure and rebuild to to their communist eutopia. Meanwhile most of the big tax payers do what they did during the Obama years. Keep their cash reserves overseas and merge with other companies and set up shop in better nations. This country gets deeper in the hole as it can never recover from the drain of a single payer economy and big welfare state. They’re insane.
luther blissett
“What you are really saying is that you are for “open borders” and redefining what it means to be a country.”
Capital moves freely easily across borders: the White House occupant depends upon income streams from countries whose residents he despises. Why shouldn’t labor move as freely as capital? Or, if you’re that opposed to movement of labor, then maybe spend a couple minutes to work out why you’re fine with free movement of capital?
B.E.Vickroy
Hey Luther – Yes, LEGAL money can freely cross borders. But ILLEGAL money should not. [ie: laundering drug money or sale of illegal arms]. As to comparing human beings and the work they do, to money. Hmm -red flags flying, alarm bells clanging – human beings are not fungible, money is. “Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.”. BTW interesting arguments in this article from Harvard Business Review THE FALSE PROMISE OF FREE CAPITAL https://hbr.org/2013/02/the-false-promise-of-free-capi
and this article from the Center For Immigration Studies -CROSS BORDER FLOW OF PEOPLE, DRUGS, CASH, AND WEAPONS https://cis.org/Mortensen/Stopping-CrossBorder-Flow-People-Drugs-Cash-and-Weapons
hondo
Either we are a land of laws or we are not. Americans are rotting in jail for smoking a joint but somehow it’s ok to come here illegally and not only receive benefits but not be punished for it. I am baffled by liberal snowflakes.
Lulz
That’s because LIEberals need new voters. Last election showed how easily they dismissed blue collar votes as irrelevant to their cause. And they played that hand too early. To them, getting people on the dole is like adding to their voting base.
luther blissett
Oh bless your heart, self-proclaimed champion of the working stiff: racist Boomers aren’t getting any younger.
BMacAVL
Why not let illegal immigrants stay and do the jobs american citizens won’t do? For example, seasonal migrant field workers actually show up for work the entire season vs. lazy Americans who show up once then stop coming to work because the work is to grueling. Now let me ask you, if your business depended on workers to harvest on specific dates to get product to market on time…who would you want working for you?
Beyond that the US is the worlds poster child on how to control a population through our war on drugs & privatized prison system. Corporations and local/state/federal governments profiting off of convictions and incarcerations. Most of our incarcerated citizens are minorities and are not paying taxes due to the fact they don’t work while in prison and have a “HUGE” rate of not securing steady work once released which results in seeking alternative methods(most of which are illegal) for feeding and putting a roof above their heads. https://www.truthdig.com/articles/trump-says-he-will-sign-prison-reform-bill/
We also need to abolish the war on drugs which is the longest ongoing war in american history…the worst part is we all know it is a war that cannot be won and is a 100% burden on tax payers. Wake up folks…the DNC & GOP is the same machine looking to keep the status quo exactly the way it has been since long before any of us were born.
Corrupt politicians pass laws and receive financial or stock kickbacks from corporations who move entire factories of jobs overseas and don’t pay the taxes they should because our government wants to keep the work force enslaved and uneducated to extent their control. Would you rather pay for an adult to make a living wage manufacturing cotton t-shirts in the US or pay for overseas produced t-shirt produced in a sweatshop employing children who work for nothing in terribly unsafe conditions so large corporations can reap all the profits for themselves and not even pay close to what they would in taxes if the product was made here in the US.
boatrocker
Um, I’m not sure I agree with your points about letting migrant workers do the work that lazy Americans won’t. I’d rather Americans grew a pair.
(Good luck with that)
One, that sounds a bit like a 21st cent. version of sharecropping,
and two that sounds like the jerk fruit orchard land owner arguments from “The Grapes of Wrath”-
you know, the bad guys. (insert Imperial March theme).
But yeah, the rest of your paranoia (kidding- valid points raised about corporatocracy, etc) is spot on.
B.E.Vickroy
Re: “war on drugs being longest in our history” The “war on poverty” has it beat by a decade. How’s that war doing? I recognize the firmly entrenched Libertarian “war” on the “war on drugs”, so won’t attempt to change your view on that issue. But thought that making a comparison to another kind of WAR might be useful. Plz see the following very short article, which examines our use of the word WAR in some ways as being counterproductive.
Summary of Joel Best’s DECLARING WAR OF SOCIAL PROBLEMS http://www.public.iastate.edu/~soc.401/summary10(apr10).pdf
BMacAVL
The war on poverty is not “marketed” as such by the media…both “wars” will never be won…point taken. What about the “war” on terror? Kids are still shooting up schools which most would consider domestic terrorism. So I ask, what role does the systemic programming of the American mind through the media fluff done to help our country? If you answered nothing than you are correct…if anything it has created a larger gap between GOP and DNC voters, which is exactly what the powers at be are going for. ..ALWAYS!
B.E.Vickroy
Hi Mac — Re: ” the systemic programming of the American mind through the media fluff ” – couldn’t have said it better myself! The press/media was so highly thought of by our founding generation that it was in the first amendment. “Oh How the mighty have fallen….” I don’t know when the media/press became the lapdog/pit bull of the power-brokers who who market divisiveness/ sensationalism/avarice to a population who are more and more dumbed down by the education system. Don’t let me get started on the whole education ‘thing’. But BTW, since this thread is about illegal immigration, educating the millions of children of illegal immigrants takes a significant piece out of a finite education budget – though not the primary reason that our schools are failing one generation after another … but it is a part of the problem.
B.E.Vickroy
Hi Mac – When I see the shop-worn arguments about “work Americans won’t do” in defense of illegal immigration, I’m pretty sure that the person using them is either dishonest or misled. I’m guessing that the latter is the case in this instance. Are you aware that most of the construction trades -skilled and unskilled- have been or are rapidly being “colonized” by cheap labor from illegal in-migration? Masons, painters, roofers, plumbers, carpenters, etc, are all jobs that Americans WILL DO!
But staying with the farm labor shibboleth. Cesar Chavez, founder of the United Farm Workers, fought against illegal immigration, because he knew that a steady stream of cheap immigrant labor – who could not protest unfair wages or unsafe working conditions – would undermine what he hoped to attain for ag-workers. [scroll down to IMMIGRATION https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Chavez#Immigration ] Sadly, in the years since his death the UFW has been hi-jacked by open border apologists. And just as he feared, the wages and working conditions he strove for have made little improvement. In fact each generation of children born to illegal immigrant field workers move on to other types of blue-collar work -construction, for instance.
BTW, the first money I earned was picking grapes in Napa Valley. Picking tomatoes, beans, and carnations are also on my resume. I am native born Californian.
B.E.Vickroy
Hi Mac –I found the following stats online this morning and wanted to share with you regarding your “work Americans won’t do” and “migrant field workers” statements. While Mexicans are not ALL of the illegal workers in our country, they are the largest number. So how does the fact that these “field workers, doing work distasteful to lazy Americans.” have enough discretionary funds to send “home” to Mexico $9.75 BILLION in the last FOUR MONTHS? Who would think that picking lettuce and changing motel sheets would be that lucrative? Or maybe do you think that these workers are moving into [“colonizing”] traditional blue-collar trades, doing work that Americans HAVE BEEN & WANT TO CONTINUE DOING? BTW 8 of my near family members are in construction trades, and are barely holding on to a middle class standard, due to wage-suppression caused by illegal alien workers.
Data source: BNamericas, Latin America’s largest online business community — Mexico Remittances Hit All-time High http://www.bnamericas.com/en/news/banking/mexico-remittances-hit-all-time-high/
B.E.Vickroy
Mac –I’m not sure I understand your reference that the US is an example of HOW TO control a population through the incarceration industry. Do you mean how NOT to control? Being in my 80’s it seems to me that criminal behavior is vastly increased since I was younger. But what you say about the “privatized prison system. Corporations and local/state/federal governments profiting off of convictions and incarcerations,” is only too true. And as you point out, after a stay in prison too many don’t know how to work and thus fall back into criminal behavior. I have a very dear young friend in a private prison in AZ and it is literally HELL! My prayer for him is that he will not come out bitter … asking a lot, but that’s what prayers are for :}
BMacAVL
“Approximately 12–13% of the American population is African-American, but they make up 35% of jail inmates, and 37% of prison inmates of the 2.2 million male inmates as of 2014 (U.S. Department of Justice, 2014).” The population I speak of is non-violent drug offenders(mostly of African decent) crowding said prisons. Most of whom are incarcerated because of a plant that God created or better yet “conspiracy” to use/sell what our government has said is illegal which originally goes back to an immigration issue in the 1930’s…which stemmed from racism which was already a huge issue in our country with all the immigrants coming to our nation from all over the world.
B.E.Vickroy
Hi Mac … hmmm, where to begin? I think that I could trot out stats that would partially explain the disparity of minority/white prisoners [social disruption, no father in the home, etc] BUT since the subject of this thread is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, I’ll follow that line. Decades of unrestrained legal and illegal immigration is felt most severely by minority communities … Latinos as well as black. [see link below for commentary from a Latino friend, now passed]
Since I have spent most of my 81 years in So.Cal … more Latinos than blacks…. I can only speak to what I know. My friend in the AZ prison is surrounded by Latino prisoners. [they try not to combine Black and Latinos because of fights between the two groups.] And like the other minority prisoners, there are a variety of reasons why Latinos or are in prison. The disruption to family life from unemployment or low wages, is a contributing factor, as is the gang culture [found in both groups] leave many young men vulnerable to criminal involvement. And neighborhoods full of illegal aliens is rife with those destructive influences. I won’t rebut your comments about a “plant that God created”, because we are too far apart on that issue for a useful discussion. But staying with things with which I have personal experience…. there is a good deal of violence from users of that “God created plant” [I’ve got the grey hairs and broken heart to verify that statement]. And as to the ‘fact’ that historical immigration laws were based on racism, again, nothing to be gained by delving into that. But, as I’ve said before, what does any of that have to do with ILLEGAL immigration and the deleterious affect on our nation TODAY? We allow more LEGAL immigrants than the rest of the world combined. Past bad intentions be d…d, today is where we are and not solving ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION will place the onus on each of us. [REF: “Latinos want a tighter border too” I hope you will take the time to read this wonderful man’s commentary.] http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-23/local/me-41915_1_illegal-immigrants
BMacAVL
Fully agree! Genesis 1:11-12
Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
B.E.Vickroy
Hi Mac …. the thread for your last comment didn’t have a ‘reply’ button, so will just add my response to the last comment and hope it makes sense. Yes indeed … at Gen. 1;11-12 all creation was good. BUT [drum roll] by Gen. 3 [who knows how much time elapsed] Satan had trotted out his lie that God was just fooling when he said disobey and reap death. [ Gen. 3:4 “you surely will not die”… and that same lie is still circulating ] So they swallowed the lie and the consequence of that was losing the freedom in the garden…. and about Gen. 3:14-19 the consequences kick in. At that time thorns and thistles [and maybe that plant you speak of] became the new reality of challenges facing humanity. It’s kind of fun to track human story through the different covenants to today’s age of grace. You may have guessed that you hit on another of my favorite subjects. :} BTW … here in the Ozarks, not quite Edenic …. but pretty close…. certainly closer than SoCalif’s dry, overcrowded, over-taxed, freeway riddled reality.
Tourist
Illegal immigrants aren’t a liberal vs conservative topic. All these finger pointing comments are just ignorant. Yes, they broke the law sneaking in. Yes, they should be afraid (even grocery shopping). If ICE finds them, they should send them home. But, what we really should start doing is punishing the ones that hire them, at under-cut wages. That’s the real enemy who’s been taking from the American worker for decades. Usually it’s large farms, restaurants, or construction companies.
boatrocker
Good point, T.
What a strange double standard and/or coinky dink that one rarely sees the yay ICE types doing their own landscaping, cooking their own food, raising their own children or growing and harvesting their own food.
Must be som’n about Hillary or emails (wink).
B.E.Vickroy
I wonder how much experience you have had with ‘ “ICE types [TYPES?!] doing their own landscaping, cooking their own food, raising their own children or growing and harvesting their own food.” I have lived next to ICE & BP agents for most of my life, and they did all of those things for themselves – except raise their own food – and I don’t think that many NON-ICE-TYPES grow wheat, corn, etc enough for their family’s use. BTW – opposing open borders does not mean being unsympathetic to those TYPES who furnish our food. Here is an excerpt of a letter I wrote to a CO newspaper that illustrates one part of the harm done by massive immigration numbers. : “Immigration legal and illegal is at the wheel of the population and growth juggernaut that is eating our open spaces and cropland, crowding our schools and hospitals, and despoiling the West that we love.” Even real ‘tree-huggers’ want to restrict the number of immigrants. WELL, I sure seem to have monopolized this comment thread. A subject near and dear to my heart, and I get carried away. No offense intended. Like the crazy old lady who traps you in a corner and tells you that the END IS NEAR . Yeah, that’s me, alright. Take a look at the POPULATION CLOCK – https://www.census.gov/popclock/ population per sq. mile is increasing, squeezing out crop land.
B.E.Vickroy
Re: punish those who hire illegal workers at undercut wages. NO KIDDING or should I say AMEN? James 5:4 “Behold the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you……” Undercutting wages for honest work is indeed “fraud” and an inevitable result of unrestrained immigration. Just as true today, as 2000 years ago. Only today it is not just agricultural work, but every point of blue-collar labor – skilled and unskilled – mechanic, painter, plumber, electrician, roofer, carpenter, manufacturing, service work – who are caught in the double-bind of undercut wages, increased local taxes, having their children’s finite education funds divided to meet the needs of illegals or the children of illegals. BTW . this sort of oversight was written into the 1986 immigration law [amnesty] which was never funded or enforced. Think we would be hashing over this issue today, if those promises had been kept? Nah, me neither! All political promises should be taken with a giant ration of salt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986
The issue at hand isn’t that the raids occurred. Had the people that are afraid entered the country through legal means, there should be absolutely no reason to be in fear. If you are here illegally, then yes, there probably is that fear. They made a conscious decision at some point to break the laws of the country they are seeking to come to.
This would be like you having a basement and someone decides to live in your basement without permission. They may never break anything, steal anything, or do anything to stand out, but they’re not supposed to be there. If said person was at their job and was speaking to someone and was like “wow, I snuck into this guys basement and I’m living there without them knowing about. I hope they don’t catch me, I’m terrified they will!”
If some see in-migration regulations as hateful or “un-American”, perhaps a look at LEGAL immigration stats through the decades will be helpful. Following the “Great Wave” of immigration [1.5 million in 1907], the parents of those who became known as the “Greatest Generation” cut immigration to a trickle. WHY? To “Americanize” through the melting pot, those newcomers. We have not followed their wise example since 1963, and reap the results.
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/us-immigration-trends#history
Oh, another one repeating the lie that the immigration changes of the 1920s were about deliberate assimilation and not about racist white people pulling up the ladder. (They were happy to let in new immigrants as long as they were white, and especially if they had relatives in the US, i.e. chain migration.)
Hi Luther [plz call me Barb] I had a perfectly erudite answer to you comment and then my hand tremors sent it off into computer dit-dot-land. And my 81 year old brain cells can’t recall my arguments. [but trust me [?] the verbiage was outstanding! [citing my Grandfather Bartechko’s experiences with the ‘melting pot’ and the resistance toward [white] Slavs by other ‘[white] folks as an impetus to his becoming Americanized. I remember how my sister and I snickered at the tears in his eyes as he daily raised the flag at his home. Now, in our 80’s we understand his emotion and devotion to this nation.] Tho it is somewhat off-subject, may I recommend a book about the immigration experience of a Greek boy following WW2.
“A PLACE FOR US: Eleni’s family in America ” by Nicholas Gage. It’s a good read. [trust me][again]
https://setinthepast.wordpress.com/2015/03/21/a-place-for-us-by-nicholas-gage/
Hi Barb: I’ll be a bit less sharp in my reply.
The 1924-1963 immigration regime used national quotas based upon the birthplaces of immigrants in the 1910 census. This meant that Europeans could get visas relatively easily, especially those from western and northern Europe, while immigration from elsewhere was squeezed. It certainly helped assimilate non-Protestant Europeans — it spans the time from Al Smith to JFK — but so did a willingness to give those people access to college and cheap mortgages.
Hi Luther – you thought my comments were “sharp”? Meaning “right on point” or “harsh”? My Grandfather was from Eastern Europe. I guess he just squeaked by the “racist ” barriers to all but Western and Northern Europe. Were there some reactionary motives in some immigration law? YES. But what does that have to do with with enforcing our current laws that allow more legal immigrants than all other nations combined? BTW, “access to college and cheap mortgages” followed WW2 for the GREATEST GENERATION who defeated many of the ‘ISMS’ that sought to enslave mankind.
I’m generally in favor of easy and unrestricted immigration. That said, it’s absurd to claim that illegal immigrants have “no criminal records” when their very presence in the country logically requires that they commit a criminal offense!
Unlawful presence is a civil offense, not a crime. By that goofy logic, illegal parking is also a crime.
Luther … parking is a city or county ordinance, but even so, repeated violation of parking laws can lead to serious – criminal – charges. Immigration, on the other hand, is under FEDERAL authority and violation of most federal laws can be criminal. Repeatedly flouting tax laws can land you in jail. Ditto for other federal jurisdictions as bank robbery, identity theft, tampering with the mail, etc. Parking and immigration are an apple’n oranges comparison.
USA 2018=East Germany 1974
Hey Jason — Does your comparison of the USA to East Germany refer to the wall that Pres. Trump has advocated? Their wall was to keep people IN. Ours [if we ever get it] will keep people [& drugs] OUT.
Partially…
More so the fact that ICE is essentially the STASI sweeping up Jews, gays, whomever not tall and blonde and getting rid of them…
Are you suggesting that the Stasi; Would not have shot West Berliners trying to enter East Berlin?
Jason – you piqued my curiosity about how many people were shot while crossing from West to East Berlin. I found the following: “During the history of the Berlin Wall (1961 to 1989), nearly 80 people were killed trying to cross from East to West Berlin. In the nearly 30 years that the wall existed, however, no one was ever shot trying to enter East Berlin. ” But the guards were pretty touchy about border/wall crossers from East to West. For example: “On August 17, 1962, two young men from East Berlin attempted to cross the wall. One was successful in climbing the last barbed wire fence and, though suffering numerous cuts, made it safely to West Berlin. While horrified West German guards watched, the second young man was shot by machine guns on the East Berlin side. He fell but managed to stand up again, reach the wall, and begin to climb over. More shots rang out. The young man was hit in the back, screamed, and fell backwards off of the wall. For nearly an hour, he lay bleeding to death and crying for help. West German guards threw bandages to the man, while the East German security men seemed content to let the young man die. He finally did die, and East German guards scurried to where he lay and removed his body. ” I don’t think that even the most radical stretch can compare ICE to East German guards.
BTW Our immigration laws/measures pale in comparison to Mexico’s. snip from Mexico’s constitution:”Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118)” – “Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law” Either pragmatic laws or racist targeting of “the OTHER” Maybe a ‘potaaayto or potawwwto thing?[http://humanevents.com/2006/05/08/mexicos-immigration-law-lets-try-it-here-at-home/
History will judge us quite harshly if history books are even allowed on library shelves in 2020.
ICE is the 2018 version of the reservation system for First Nation folks with additional ingredients
of Japanese internment camps from WWII.
LOL really? Seems to me people are starting to become tribal because of the insanity leftist pedal. In this case though, sellouts for votes is akin to treason. And by all counts, they are guilty of sedition.
15% of the population of Guatemala is here in the US. Why? So buffoon leftist can take advantage of cheap labor? You people are the modern day slave owners.
Sorry, but my ancestors fought to preserve the Union and free the slaves.
And voting lefty= treason/sedition?
Ohhhhhh kay then.
the statue of liberty has nothing to do with illegal immigration which is a federal CRIME.
THANKS to ICE for doing the job our Sheriff just won’t do … nor the next one probably either …
What you are really saying is that you are for “open borders” and redefining what it means to be a country. The problem with that premise is, you have no idea what the consequences of those policies would be.
This is why society requires structure. What would be your solution to the chaos that would ensue is the real question? What other laws would you be willing to overlook?
They tear down the supposed structure and rebuild to to their communist eutopia. Meanwhile most of the big tax payers do what they did during the Obama years. Keep their cash reserves overseas and merge with other companies and set up shop in better nations. This country gets deeper in the hole as it can never recover from the drain of a single payer economy and big welfare state. They’re insane.
“What you are really saying is that you are for “open borders” and redefining what it means to be a country.”
Capital moves freely easily across borders: the White House occupant depends upon income streams from countries whose residents he despises. Why shouldn’t labor move as freely as capital? Or, if you’re that opposed to movement of labor, then maybe spend a couple minutes to work out why you’re fine with free movement of capital?
Hey Luther – Yes, LEGAL money can freely cross borders. But ILLEGAL money should not. [ie: laundering drug money or sale of illegal arms]. As to comparing human beings and the work they do, to money. Hmm -red flags flying, alarm bells clanging – human beings are not fungible, money is. “Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.”. BTW interesting arguments in this article from Harvard Business Review THE FALSE PROMISE OF FREE CAPITAL https://hbr.org/2013/02/the-false-promise-of-free-capi
and this article from the Center For Immigration Studies -CROSS BORDER FLOW OF PEOPLE, DRUGS, CASH, AND WEAPONS https://cis.org/Mortensen/Stopping-CrossBorder-Flow-People-Drugs-Cash-and-Weapons
Either we are a land of laws or we are not. Americans are rotting in jail for smoking a joint but somehow it’s ok to come here illegally and not only receive benefits but not be punished for it. I am baffled by liberal snowflakes.
That’s because LIEberals need new voters. Last election showed how easily they dismissed blue collar votes as irrelevant to their cause. And they played that hand too early. To them, getting people on the dole is like adding to their voting base.
Oh bless your heart, self-proclaimed champion of the working stiff: racist Boomers aren’t getting any younger.
Why not let illegal immigrants stay and do the jobs american citizens won’t do? For example, seasonal migrant field workers actually show up for work the entire season vs. lazy Americans who show up once then stop coming to work because the work is to grueling. Now let me ask you, if your business depended on workers to harvest on specific dates to get product to market on time…who would you want working for you?
Beyond that the US is the worlds poster child on how to control a population through our war on drugs & privatized prison system. Corporations and local/state/federal governments profiting off of convictions and incarcerations. Most of our incarcerated citizens are minorities and are not paying taxes due to the fact they don’t work while in prison and have a “HUGE” rate of not securing steady work once released which results in seeking alternative methods(most of which are illegal) for feeding and putting a roof above their heads. https://www.truthdig.com/articles/trump-says-he-will-sign-prison-reform-bill/
We also need to abolish the war on drugs which is the longest ongoing war in american history…the worst part is we all know it is a war that cannot be won and is a 100% burden on tax payers. Wake up folks…the DNC & GOP is the same machine looking to keep the status quo exactly the way it has been since long before any of us were born.
Corrupt politicians pass laws and receive financial or stock kickbacks from corporations who move entire factories of jobs overseas and don’t pay the taxes they should because our government wants to keep the work force enslaved and uneducated to extent their control. Would you rather pay for an adult to make a living wage manufacturing cotton t-shirts in the US or pay for overseas produced t-shirt produced in a sweatshop employing children who work for nothing in terribly unsafe conditions so large corporations can reap all the profits for themselves and not even pay close to what they would in taxes if the product was made here in the US.
Um, I’m not sure I agree with your points about letting migrant workers do the work that lazy Americans won’t. I’d rather Americans grew a pair.
(Good luck with that)
One, that sounds a bit like a 21st cent. version of sharecropping,
and two that sounds like the jerk fruit orchard land owner arguments from “The Grapes of Wrath”-
you know, the bad guys. (insert Imperial March theme).
But yeah, the rest of your paranoia (kidding- valid points raised about corporatocracy, etc) is spot on.
Re: “war on drugs being longest in our history” The “war on poverty” has it beat by a decade. How’s that war doing? I recognize the firmly entrenched Libertarian “war” on the “war on drugs”, so won’t attempt to change your view on that issue. But thought that making a comparison to another kind of WAR might be useful. Plz see the following very short article, which examines our use of the word WAR in some ways as being counterproductive.
Summary of Joel Best’s DECLARING WAR OF SOCIAL PROBLEMS
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~soc.401/summary10(apr10).pdf
The war on poverty is not “marketed” as such by the media…both “wars” will never be won…point taken. What about the “war” on terror? Kids are still shooting up schools which most would consider domestic terrorism. So I ask, what role does the systemic programming of the American mind through the media fluff done to help our country? If you answered nothing than you are correct…if anything it has created a larger gap between GOP and DNC voters, which is exactly what the powers at be are going for. ..ALWAYS!
Hi Mac — Re: ” the systemic programming of the American mind through the media fluff ” – couldn’t have said it better myself! The press/media was so highly thought of by our founding generation that it was in the first amendment. “Oh How the mighty have fallen….” I don’t know when the media/press became the lapdog/pit bull of the power-brokers who who market divisiveness/ sensationalism/avarice to a population who are more and more dumbed down by the education system. Don’t let me get started on the whole education ‘thing’. But BTW, since this thread is about illegal immigration, educating the millions of children of illegal immigrants takes a significant piece out of a finite education budget – though not the primary reason that our schools are failing one generation after another … but it is a part of the problem.
Hi Mac – When I see the shop-worn arguments about “work Americans won’t do” in defense of illegal immigration, I’m pretty sure that the person using them is either dishonest or misled. I’m guessing that the latter is the case in this instance. Are you aware that most of the construction trades -skilled and unskilled- have been or are rapidly being “colonized” by cheap labor from illegal in-migration? Masons, painters, roofers, plumbers, carpenters, etc, are all jobs that Americans WILL DO!
But staying with the farm labor shibboleth. Cesar Chavez, founder of the United Farm Workers, fought against illegal immigration, because he knew that a steady stream of cheap immigrant labor – who could not protest unfair wages or unsafe working conditions – would undermine what he hoped to attain for ag-workers. [scroll down to IMMIGRATION https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Chavez#Immigration ] Sadly, in the years since his death the UFW has been hi-jacked by open border apologists. And just as he feared, the wages and working conditions he strove for have made little improvement. In fact each generation of children born to illegal immigrant field workers move on to other types of blue-collar work -construction, for instance.
BTW, the first money I earned was picking grapes in Napa Valley. Picking tomatoes, beans, and carnations are also on my resume. I am native born Californian.
Hi Mac –I found the following stats online this morning and wanted to share with you regarding your “work Americans won’t do” and “migrant field workers” statements. While Mexicans are not ALL of the illegal workers in our country, they are the largest number. So how does the fact that these “field workers, doing work distasteful to lazy Americans.” have enough discretionary funds to send “home” to Mexico $9.75 BILLION in the last FOUR MONTHS? Who would think that picking lettuce and changing motel sheets would be that lucrative? Or maybe do you think that these workers are moving into [“colonizing”] traditional blue-collar trades, doing work that Americans HAVE BEEN & WANT TO CONTINUE DOING? BTW 8 of my near family members are in construction trades, and are barely holding on to a middle class standard, due to wage-suppression caused by illegal alien workers.
Data source: BNamericas, Latin America’s largest online business community — Mexico Remittances Hit All-time High http://www.bnamericas.com/en/news/banking/mexico-remittances-hit-all-time-high/
Mac –I’m not sure I understand your reference that the US is an example of HOW TO control a population through the incarceration industry. Do you mean how NOT to control? Being in my 80’s it seems to me that criminal behavior is vastly increased since I was younger. But what you say about the “privatized prison system. Corporations and local/state/federal governments profiting off of convictions and incarcerations,” is only too true. And as you point out, after a stay in prison too many don’t know how to work and thus fall back into criminal behavior. I have a very dear young friend in a private prison in AZ and it is literally HELL! My prayer for him is that he will not come out bitter … asking a lot, but that’s what prayers are for :}
“Approximately 12–13% of the American population is African-American, but they make up 35% of jail inmates, and 37% of prison inmates of the 2.2 million male inmates as of 2014 (U.S. Department of Justice, 2014).” The population I speak of is non-violent drug offenders(mostly of African decent) crowding said prisons. Most of whom are incarcerated because of a plant that God created or better yet “conspiracy” to use/sell what our government has said is illegal which originally goes back to an immigration issue in the 1930’s…which stemmed from racism which was already a huge issue in our country with all the immigrants coming to our nation from all over the world.
Hi Mac … hmmm, where to begin? I think that I could trot out stats that would partially explain the disparity of minority/white prisoners [social disruption, no father in the home, etc] BUT since the subject of this thread is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, I’ll follow that line. Decades of unrestrained legal and illegal immigration is felt most severely by minority communities … Latinos as well as black. [see link below for commentary from a Latino friend, now passed]
Since I have spent most of my 81 years in So.Cal … more Latinos than blacks…. I can only speak to what I know. My friend in the AZ prison is surrounded by Latino prisoners. [they try not to combine Black and Latinos because of fights between the two groups.] And like the other minority prisoners, there are a variety of reasons why Latinos or are in prison. The disruption to family life from unemployment or low wages, is a contributing factor, as is the gang culture [found in both groups] leave many young men vulnerable to criminal involvement. And neighborhoods full of illegal aliens is rife with those destructive influences. I won’t rebut your comments about a “plant that God created”, because we are too far apart on that issue for a useful discussion. But staying with things with which I have personal experience…. there is a good deal of violence from users of that “God created plant” [I’ve got the grey hairs and broken heart to verify that statement]. And as to the ‘fact’ that historical immigration laws were based on racism, again, nothing to be gained by delving into that. But, as I’ve said before, what does any of that have to do with ILLEGAL immigration and the deleterious affect on our nation TODAY? We allow more LEGAL immigrants than the rest of the world combined. Past bad intentions be d…d, today is where we are and not solving ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION will place the onus on each of us. [REF: “Latinos want a tighter border too” I hope you will take the time to read this wonderful man’s commentary.] http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-23/local/me-41915_1_illegal-immigrants
Fully agree! Genesis 1:11-12
Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.
Hi Mac …. the thread for your last comment didn’t have a ‘reply’ button, so will just add my response to the last comment and hope it makes sense. Yes indeed … at Gen. 1;11-12 all creation was good. BUT [drum roll] by Gen. 3 [who knows how much time elapsed] Satan had trotted out his lie that God was just fooling when he said disobey and reap death. [ Gen. 3:4 “you surely will not die”… and that same lie is still circulating ] So they swallowed the lie and the consequence of that was losing the freedom in the garden…. and about Gen. 3:14-19 the consequences kick in. At that time thorns and thistles [and maybe that plant you speak of] became the new reality of challenges facing humanity. It’s kind of fun to track human story through the different covenants to today’s age of grace. You may have guessed that you hit on another of my favorite subjects. :} BTW … here in the Ozarks, not quite Edenic …. but pretty close…. certainly closer than SoCalif’s dry, overcrowded, over-taxed, freeway riddled reality.
Illegal immigrants aren’t a liberal vs conservative topic. All these finger pointing comments are just ignorant. Yes, they broke the law sneaking in. Yes, they should be afraid (even grocery shopping). If ICE finds them, they should send them home. But, what we really should start doing is punishing the ones that hire them, at under-cut wages. That’s the real enemy who’s been taking from the American worker for decades. Usually it’s large farms, restaurants, or construction companies.
Good point, T.
What a strange double standard and/or coinky dink that one rarely sees the yay ICE types doing their own landscaping, cooking their own food, raising their own children or growing and harvesting their own food.
Must be som’n about Hillary or emails (wink).
I wonder how much experience you have had with ‘ “ICE types [TYPES?!] doing their own landscaping, cooking their own food, raising their own children or growing and harvesting their own food.” I have lived next to ICE & BP agents for most of my life, and they did all of those things for themselves – except raise their own food – and I don’t think that many NON-ICE-TYPES grow wheat, corn, etc enough for their family’s use. BTW – opposing open borders does not mean being unsympathetic to those TYPES who furnish our food. Here is an excerpt of a letter I wrote to a CO newspaper that illustrates one part of the harm done by massive immigration numbers. : “Immigration legal and illegal is at the wheel of the population and growth juggernaut that is eating our open spaces and cropland, crowding our schools and hospitals, and despoiling the West that we love.” Even real ‘tree-huggers’ want to restrict the number of immigrants. WELL, I sure seem to have monopolized this comment thread. A subject near and dear to my heart, and I get carried away. No offense intended. Like the crazy old lady who traps you in a corner and tells you that the END IS NEAR . Yeah, that’s me, alright. Take a look at the POPULATION CLOCK – https://www.census.gov/popclock/ population per sq. mile is increasing, squeezing out crop land.
Re: punish those who hire illegal workers at undercut wages. NO KIDDING or should I say AMEN? James 5:4 “Behold the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you……” Undercutting wages for honest work is indeed “fraud” and an inevitable result of unrestrained immigration. Just as true today, as 2000 years ago. Only today it is not just agricultural work, but every point of blue-collar labor – skilled and unskilled – mechanic, painter, plumber, electrician, roofer, carpenter, manufacturing, service work – who are caught in the double-bind of undercut wages, increased local taxes, having their children’s finite education funds divided to meet the needs of illegals or the children of illegals. BTW . this sort of oversight was written into the 1986 immigration law [amnesty] which was never funded or enforced. Think we would be hashing over this issue today, if those promises had been kept? Nah, me neither! All political promises should be taken with a giant ration of salt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986