Congratulations to Rep. Heath Shuler for his courage in voting to cut off federal funding for Planned Parenthood, [an organization that] deals with the torture and murder of pre-born babies under the polite words “abortion” and “choice.” …
What about those babies who have died by the saline-solution procedure that burned the babies’ skin off and is no longer being done? Gruesome, brutal and barbaric? You bet! That is exactly what abortion is.
In Germany, it was death by gas. Here in our country, it is death by abortion — America’s Holocaust.
Right on, Rep. Shuler! Stay the course despite the opposition of those who defend such murder.
— Diana Ronald-Szabo
Asheville
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[i]In Germany, it was death by gas. Here in our country, it is death by abortion — America’s Holocaust.[/i]
Yeah! Great comparison! People I disagree with are JUST LIKE Hitler!
Glad to see the Xpress has never heard of Godwins law…
… or we could call none of your business unless it is your body.
“In Germany, it was death by gas. Here in our country, it is death by abortion — America’s Holocaust.”
Only one major difference, those people were actually alive.
I know this probably wont penetrate the brain washing, but its the 21st century, you might want to consider the fact that Santa Claus isnt coming back to save you.
God bless Rep Shuler for standing up for the unborn babies. Yes, abortion is murder. Christian kindness dictates that we again make abortion illegal in order to protect the most vulnerable amongst us.
We can’t have politicians who are susceptible to and make decisions based on extremely low- quality information.
It’s one thing to not like abortion, but there’s not rational plan in this LTTE… or any of the anti-abortion ‘calls to action’ many of us have been hearing since Row vs. Wade. There’s other aspects to a valid pro-life agenda, like a heathcare system that works, and otherwise reducing the US preventable death rate.
It’s not that interesting to hear Nazi analogies when we have our first non-white president… ever. [Btw, President Obama is our first democratically elected president since Clinton’s re-election.]
The writer seems to want to end all abortions forever. This must include the involuntary emergency room procedure Rep. Jackie Speier went through. If Diana spelled out a roadmap for ending all abortions forever, and not just criminalizing all abortion and mandating involuntary pregnancy and solutions like adoption, then there might be an element to her argument that convinces the majority of America’s women who I believe do not share in Diana’s hyperbole.
Btw, Diana. When you inserted “You bet!” in the middle of your otherwise somber and morbid writing, it completely destroyed your points. You don’t have to convince most people that miscarriages, abortions and pregnancy by rape and incest (rape and molestation at all, or course) are miserable, horrible events.
When you all rap like Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck though, most people who are not mentally and spiritually networked to FOX News do not ‘get it’. And those are more sad elements attached to the kind of almost routine dialogue we see in this LTTE on otherwise important moral issues.
I you want to eliminate the planned pregnancy and contraception services Planned Parenthood and other agencies provide… AND abortion… As well as stop teaching youth about sexual issues in school, you get more unwanted pregnancies and women and children falling victim to real evil crazies like Kermit Gosnell.
Many people think the perversion of the Second Amendment creates a less safe world. We do not protect life in a perfect way. Democracy can be ugly to certain subgroups. American democracy is actually being overridden in too many areas by corporatism and self-centered regressive tax policy which I believe costs lives. [Solutions for bringing back the value, deployment of, and reinvigorating the correct definition of ‘public service’ is for another commentary.]
A national decision was made on abortion in a previous generation and it is not the litmus test for all things. Some people hate Row vs. Wade. You can be heart-broken about it. but join the club. When we realize there are many different versions of ‘pro-life’, we’ll see start seeing our neighbors as more human, and humane.
If an Abortion Nuremberg Trial is Diana’s solution, I can’t see how that is either constitutional, ethical, or actually ends all abortions. My general feeling on the subject is that if Diana and others with her beliefs can organize a national referendum to somehow reverse a long-standing SCOTUS decision and repeal all the subsequent related legislation, just do that and let’s end this discussion… or at least put it in proper perspective with everyone’s pro-life desires.
Also, on a personal note I find an actual abortion to be very sad. So many things can be reframed as mass murder, fratricide or genocide… or potentially so. Where do we start?
I do think God judges us, but not in order to look for ways to send us to hell… at least in most cases right off the bat.
Our Law is at best an imperfect way of emulating God’s justice… if God were fully present on earth and we were aware of what perfect justice was. Indeed, claims of Judeo-Christian text, or at least Biblical principles, being imbedded in the US Legal System are not inaccurate. But Rowe vs. Wade is also present and it does not appear to be going away. We do what we can and evolve the law based on modernity.
For what I’m guessing Diana’s policies to be to become the law of the land and backed up with the necessary law enforcement budgets and social welfare system (if there will be any), Diana and her side would have to change the minds of millions of American women that they have been wrong in thinking early-term abortion is legal. From Diana’s LTTE, I do not see the argumentation or other capabilities one would expect in pulling off such a campaign.
Looking to Heath Shuler, a rich real estate developer and ex-NFL player who happens to be a Member of Congress for a sane and just end to abortion is a bit sad as well.
And in recent years we seem to be going back to an increasingly unjust legal framing of the issues. But in the case of Rowe vs. Wade, SCOTUS of the time was probably the least corrupted it may have ever been. What more can really be done on this issue except to make healthcare as affordable, accessible and as effective as possible, and make life generally better for Americans, so as to make sure women who do give birth and their children have the greatest changes for success.
Maybe if we visualize a deeper pro-life agenda we can hope for a future where the option of abortion is almost always only used in cases like Rep. Speier’s. It seems like the current view of what most of us think of as ‘pro-life’ has a very limited definition to a revulsion about abortion, which I actually could otherwise agree with if not for the deplorable tactics I have seen from the extreme right on these matters.
We live in a very imperfect world. If legislation alone were the solution to everything, we’d have a million times the laws we have now.
There are some key points to leadership I’d like the anti-abortion folks to review: approach, deployment and results. If you can juggle these ideas and get the majority of us onboard with whatever new, fresh solution you all come back with, the rest of us might feel there’s a way to really reduce unwanted pregnancies (including rape prevention), and provide widespread prenatal care so as to improve the number of successful planned pregnancies. Otherwise, there are so many other ways to develop a deeper, more genuine pro-life civilization than looking at nonexistent Nazi analogies.
You betcha!
Coalition for Secular Government
http://www.seculargovernment.us/
…………………………….
Why is this letter tagged “pro-choice”?
@Jon: because pro-choice now means mothers are choosing to let their unborn babies live! Praise God!
Sally, you wrote:
“Christian kindness dictates that we again make abortion illegal in order to protect the most vulnerable amongst us.”
Umm….we simply do NOT make laws in this country based on religious doctrine. It is ludicrous to suggest that we should.
You can base your own life on whatever you want, but when making laws your current approach holds no water.
[i].we simply do NOT make laws in this country based on religious doctrine. [/i]
We don’t? What about that whole ‘endowed by their Creator’ stuff?
“we simply do NOT make laws in this country based on religious doctrine.
We don’t? What about that whole ‘endowed by their Creator’ stuff?”
“This phrase (“endowed by it’s creator”) is often mentioned by Christians as proof that Jefferson was a Christian. The original draft that Jefferson wrote, however, did not say this. In fact, it said, “…that all Men are created equal & independent; that from that equal creation they derive in rights inherent and inalienable…” [2] The language of the first draft was changed, perhaps for effect or to appeal to a wider audience-but the point is that Jefferson’s original emphasis was on the equality of all men, not on a creator. Jefferson’s other writings rather emphatically indicate that he was not a supporter of the Church or of religion in general; however, what he and the others knew was that they were declaring themselves independent from the most powerful empire on Earth, and that empire was officially Christian. Perhaps the subtle meaning behind adding ‘endowed by their creator’ was to give the King of England a higher authority to answer to, one he ostensibly (at least officially) believed in. After all, Monarchies were supposedly appointed by God, yet we were rebelling against one in order to found a Democratic Republic. Does that sound like we were following the Christian tenets of the day? Or does it sound more like we were declaring ourselves free from that oppression?”
http://recoveringfundamentalists.com/things-you-didnt-learn-in-history-class-or-church.html
Call the anti-abortion movement what it is: fascism.
Murder is illegal, abortions are not. Until you are succesful in changing the law, it is factually wrong to equate the two. I think the death penalty is wrong, but I wouldn’t call it “murder”. Murder, or homocide, is clearly defined by the penal code.
Also, the idea that pro-lifers are taking the term pro-choice to be their own is funny, greedy, and asinine. I suggest pro-choice people should be called pro-life because they care about the health of the mother, as well as the child being born to a household that is loving, prepared, and desirous of a child.
@Ashvegasjoe: “The idea that pro-lifers are taking the term pro-choice to be their own is funny, greedy, and asinine. I suggest pro-choice people should be called pro-life because they care about the health of the mother, as well as the child being born to a household that is loving, prepared, and desirous of a child.”
Appropriation and repurposing or reattribution of phrases and symbols and ideas has long been a practice of uber-conservatives. The best way to counteract such appropriation and repurposing is, as you did, simply to turn it around to expose the absurdity.
Other examples are “we the people,” family values, family, nuclear family, planned parenthood, morality, immorality, decency, freedom loving, patriot, patriotic, patriotism, “they took our flag,” “take back our flag,” “take back our country,” believers, unbelievers, nonbelievers, motherhood, single motherhood, traditional, liberal, conservative, God-given, Xmas taking Christ out of Christmas, the Founding Fathers said…, God believes…, Jesus said…, God wants…, Nazi, holocaust, anti-baby, baby killer, infanticide, right to life, evolution, creation, intelligent design, Christian values, Christ-centered, Confederate flag, American flag, English language, civilization, civilized, Christian kindness, liberty, justice, and, of course, (my favorite) quoting any old source or idea and attributing it to a “founding father” document.
And more.
Here’s an interesting copy of Newt Gingrich’s 1994 letter to newly elected Republicans regarding the power of words…and how to use them to gain converts. This is from a Wake Forest University communication course. (I’m sure the Democrats have their version of this also…just using this as an example of how the powers that be are manipulating the message.)
http://www.wfu.edu/~zulick/454/gopac.html
“his document, a working paper from GOPAC, Newt Gingrich’s political action committee, was circulated to freshman Republican members of the 104th Congress in 1995. It functions as a rudimentary rhetorical handbook, providing inexperienced political speakers with a lexicon of terms that drive a wedge of distinctions between themselves and members of the opposing party. At the same time it educates them in a common language that will give evidence of their solidarity with the Speaker of the House and his goals for the Republican majority.”
http://www.wfu.edu/~zulick/454/gopac.html
“Optimistic Positive Governing Words
Use the list below to help define your campaign and your vision of public service. These words can help give extra power to your message. In addition, these words help develop the pos[i]tive side of the contrast you should create with your opponent, giving your community something to vote for!
share, change, opportunity, legacy, challenge, control, truth, moral, courage, reform, prosperity, crusade, movement, children, family, debate, compete, active(ly), we/us/our, candid(ly), humane, pristine, provide, liberty, commitment, principle(d), unique, duty, precious, premise, care(ing), tough, listen, learn, help, lead, vision, success, empower(ment), citizen, activist, mobilize, conflict, light, dream, freedom, peace, rights, pioneer, proud/pride, building, preserve, pro-(issue): flag, children, environment; reform, workfare, eliminate good-time in prison, strength, choice/choose, fair, protect, confident, incentive, hard work, initiative, common sense, passionate
Contrasting Words
Often we search hard for words to define our opponents. Sometimes we are hesitant to use contrast. Remember that creating a difference helps you. These are powerful words that can create a clear and easily understood contrast. Apply these to the opponent, their record, proposals and their party.
7.2
decay, failure (fail) collapse(ing) deeper, crisis, urgent(cy), destructive, destroy, sick, pathetic, lie, liberal, they/them, unionized bureaucracy, “compassion” is not enough, betray, consequences, limit(s), shallow, traitors, sensationalists, endanger, coercion, hypocricy, radical, threaten, devour, waste, corruption, incompetent, permissive attitude, destructive, impose, self-serving, greed, ideological, insecure, anti-(issue): flag, family, child, jobs; pessimistic, excuses, intolerant, stagnation, welfare, corrupt, selfish, insensitive, status quo, mandate(s) taxes, spend (ing) shame, disgrace, punish (poor…) bizarre, cynicism, cheat, steal, abuse of power, machine, bosses, obsolete, criminal rights, red tape, patronage.”
Correction….1994 letter.
If you want to reduce the number of abortions in this country, then your best course of action is to take positive action. Promote the use of condoms and birth control. Key to reducing abortions is reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies.
Imagine a world in which every child was a wanted a child.
Imagine a world where every pregnant woman respects the beating heart of her unborn baby in her womb. Imagine a more progressive world where abortion is no longer a choice, but is again against the law like it had been for all time. Imagine a world where there is no killing of anything with a face. Call it “meat processing”. “Execution”. Whatever. When a woman takes the life of her unborn child, it is murder. To quote John Prine: “…now Jesus don’t like killin no matter what the reason’s for…”.
I am pretty certain that abortion was legal for a lot longer than it was illegal.
In fact, just by the simple logic that everything is legal until a law is passed and laws have a fairly short history with us as a species, then yea, abortion predates the legality of abortion.
So, um, take that “good old days” routine elsewhere. It’s nonsense.
Stan Brocklin, in the context of your way of thinking, “imagine a world” where you choose never again to insert your “meat processing” reproductive part into any woman that might result in a human “with a face” unless you want to be responsible for raising that human “with a face.”
This scenario may not be exactly like you think “it has been for all time,” but point made?
Now to somewhat paraphrase John Prine (whoever he is), Jesus don’t like irresponsible fornication “no matter what the reason’s for…”
@Dionysis [i]“This phrase (“endowed by it’s creator”) is often mentioned by Christians as proof that Jefferson was a Christian.[/i]
I’m not saying it makes us a “Christian Nation”. I’m just pointing out it does appear we have a tradition of laws based on religious doctrine. Do you disagree?
So Betty, what if your mother had had the “right” to terminate you in her womb? OK with you? And if anyone really doesn’t want to be bothered with a neighbor they don’t like, “abort” them out of the womb? And it’s of course OK with many liberals to “abort out of the womb” 100s of 1000s of “food” animals each year for their twisted appetites. I say it is a shame that many liberals are “all about me”, and have little sympathy for others, even the most vulnerable among us, the unborn baby in the womb. It’s ironic that liberals claim to care about others, but in practice many do not. Search your hearts, pro-abortionists, and see if you would trade places with an unborn baby set to be aborted out of it’s mother’s womb. Hopefully you will find some sympathy for the unborn babies. Jesus loves the little children. A society can be judged on how it treats the weakest amongst it.
If the “pro life” men posting want to deny women choice, then those men need to keep it zipped up unless the act is to procreate. It”s a harsh thing to consider, but only fair.
“@Dionysis “This phrase (“endowed by it’s creator”) is often mentioned by Christians as proof that Jefferson was a Christian.
I’m not saying it makes us a “Christian Nation”. I’m just pointing out it does appear we have a tradition of laws based on religious doctrine. Do you disagree?”
Yes, I do agree that many laws in this country have a Christian basis; arguably, the laws promulgated during this country’s early years were modeled after the prohibitions embodied in the Ten Commandments. Of course, efforts to craft laws based upon religious doctrine have been on-going by those who would prefer this country be something akin to a Christian theocracy, and they are routinely challenged in the courts and (usually) struck down.
But the phrase “endowed by their creator” which you cited was not a basis for religiously-derived law, as noted in my first post.
Stan Brocklin, you’re practicing conflation big time. (I learned that word from Piffy and really love it since it applies to so many convoluted and multifaceted situations.)
So let’s start with which one of those numerous issues you have conflated that is most important to you?
And, as per my question, which you avoided, are you willing to forego copulation at all times except when you are willing to reproduce a human “with a face” and to be responsible for raising that child?
@ Betty. Yes, Betty, I agree. Men should be responsible as well as the woman. If a man and woman have sex and the woman gets pregnant as a result, then the man should support the woman in her motherhood, and them both her and the child after the birth. This is the reason society has traditionally urged people to marry before sex, or at least after a pregnancy. For the sake of the children. Now, I will wiggle your way in certain circumstances concerning abortion. These exceptions seem reasonable to me: abortion allowed when the life and health of the mother is at stake; rape; incest. The great majority of abortions are sought for convenience’s sake, birth control afterthefact if you will. These are clearly wrong in my opinion.
So, Betty, would you have been in favor of allowing your own mother the “choice” of aborting you in the womb?
@Stan Brocklin: “So, Betty, would you have been in favor of allowing your own mother the “choice” of aborting you in the womb?”
Yes, Stan, my mother did have a “choice” but no one but my mother “allowed” it or prevented her from making her choice.
And it was evidently the same for your mother, wasn’t it?
And so here you are, Stan, trying to debate whether you or I have the “right” to reproduce, and how.
So, I ask you, when exactly (as you say) did “society traditionally urge people to marry before sex, or at least after a pregnancy”?
And what exactly does that “societal urging” you invoke mean to you?
And, so I ask you again, if all genders are equal under your God, are you willing to forego copulation at all times except when you are willing to reproduce a human “with a face” and to be responsible for raising that child?
What bothers me is that the “pro-life” folks seem to care very little about all of the murdered already-born in Iraq and Afghanistan, bullets they pay for with every dollar of income tax. They vote for war, they wave flags, and put bumper stickers on their cars saying support the troops. Meanwhile, 19 year old kids whose helmets don’t even fit watch their buddies and Iraqi and Afghan already-born be blow to bits. You just don’t hear much about that from these folks. Evangelical David Kuo headed the “faith based initiative” of George W, and came out of it believing that the evangelicals were being “used”. Lamenting abortion is easy, you can do it from your recliner. Caring about actual real people killed and ruined by war, that’s complicated and can keep you up at night.
Paraphrasing Jon Stewart: People don’t matter much to the “pro-lifers” when they’re in the womb (“pro-life” Republicans currently cutting aid to pregnant women), or after you’re born (cutting health care for children), but those few minutes when you’re crowning you are the most important person on the planet.
I recommend that the federal funds used to support Planned Parenthood and its abortion mills be redirected to prenatal and infant care programs in the various states.
And if your so-quoted John Prine’s Jesus was a virgin, wouldn’t you want to emulate him, and them?
Travelah, I agree with your recommendation for prenatal and infant care programs–which is already advocated by Planned Parenthood and all caring parents–along with even more contraception–but not with your hyperbolic “abortion mill” verbiage.
Since I consider abortion to be nothing but the slaughter of innocent babies who should be protected in the womb, I’m being generous with the phrase abortion mill. I really don’t really have anything else to add on the matter.
Within the context of your self-serving “generous” advocacy, Travelah, neither do I.
By the way, Travelah, given your extensive Christian research, do you think Jesus was a virgin? Or not? And what evidence is there either way? Must we just guess? Do you think he fathered any children? And if so, by whom?
Since you are the most studious Christian I know, I really would like to know your findings.
Your foolishness aside (and somewhat unbecoming a woman of your supposed maturity)Jesus of Nazareth had no wife and given that he kept the law perfectly, did not engage in adultery or fornication i.e. sex outside of marriage. Of course, that means he fathered no children.
Perhaps you have spent too much time pondering the fiction of the DaVinci Code. Christ has a bride and it is called the church. These are not things within your grasp particularly with your open scorn and derision of Christianity and your blasphemy of things you know nothing about. It is one thing to be a skeptic and respectful. It is another to have enmity and be bring dishonor to yourself.
Have the last word.
Ah, well. I thought you might have been able to provide some insight into some of the more esoteric apocryphal renderings that are not in keeping with your rote scenario above and that are a lot more interesting and believable.
Such is the way of the pharisee.
Imagine a whole heaven peopled with such pharisees.
Oh, wait. That would be hell, wouldn’t it?
Makes me doubly appreciative of the real men in my life–real men who love women. I think I’ll bake them a double dutch chocolate cake today, with raspberry frosting.
Imagine a whole heaven peopled with such pharisees
That’s one of the reasons I reject Christianity.
Good reading, now available to everyone, the Gnostic gospels of Mary and Sophia, deemed too hot for “pharisees” to handle:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=“gospel+of+mary”&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql;=&oq;=
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=“pistis+sophia”&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g-c1g9&aql;=&oq;=
And as per Leonardo da Vinci, his scientific notebook Codex Leicester purchased by Bill Gates in 1994 for $30.8 million is fascinating reading:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=“bill+gates”+codex+da+vinci&aq=f&aqi=g-b1&aql;=&oq;=
“Imagine a whole heaven peopled with such pharisees.”
Why call people names? An intellectual debate of any interest will always have at least 2 sides. Labeling those who disagree with you is a copout meant to deflect honest debate points from the other. Let’s all make our points without name calling.
Also, I notice many on the left hold Christians to a perfect standard, yet overlook the imperfections of those of the liberal religion. How many fellow liberals talk like Marx but live the country club lifestyle? Christian churches are not a museum for saints. They are a hospitals for sinners striving to be better people.
Funny how people like Travelah claim they are all about protecting a baby’s ‘rights’, and yet seem hell-bent on denying anything resembling ‘rights’ of any sort once the child is born.
Funny how that works.
I would think a more consistent philosophy would be for Travelah to say that “Big Government” has no right telling a woman what to do with her womb.
And claiming a fetus has rights? That SMACKS of socialism!
Down with the Welfare anti-abortion Nanny State!
Since the letter-writer is comparing abortion to the Holocaust, I hope she’ll check out the award-winning book “Eternal Treblinka: Our Treatment of Animals and The Holocaust.” The title of the book comes from Isaac Bashevis Singer’s “The Letter Writer,” which included: “In his thoughts, Herman spoke a eulogy for the mouse who had shared a portion of her life with him and who, because of him, had left this earth. ‘What do they know–all these scholars, all these philosophers, all the leaders of the world–about such as you? They have convinced themselves that man, the worst transgressor of all the species, is the crown of creation. All other creatures were created merely to provide him with food, pelts, to be tormented, exterminated. In relation to them, all people are Nazis; for the animals it is an eternal Treblinka.'”
More about the book, which is available at the downtown library
http://powerfulbook.com/
This book was reviewed by the Mountain Xpress, here’s a link:
http://www.mountainx.com/ae/2007/0605latestword.php/
Good post Warren. And I agree. I’ll also add that the lack of respect for all life, which includes “food animals” like cows and hogs, hardens the heart towards unborn babies. Let us all stop and consider that life is precious. Now, plants are living as well, as some meat eaters have pointed out. But you have to draw a line somewhere. I draw the line at warm blooded mammals that bleed and cry out as they are being “slaughtered” to feed cannibalistic appetites.
Let us allowed life to continue as nature intends. Human babies deserve to be born. And cows, hogs, sheep, dogs and cats deserve to live as well. We do not need to kill and eat animals. And we certainly do not need to kill the most vulnerable amongst us: unborn children.
If Bill Pffnstickums Smith had paid attention to what I had actually written, his eyes would not be glazed over with egg yoke.
I recommend that the federal funds used to support Planned Parenthood and its abortion mills be redirected to prenatal and infant care programs in the various states.
I would think a more consistent philosophy would be for Travelah to say that “Big Government” has no right telling a woman what to do with her womb.
She can do anything she wants to her womb. She can’t do anything she wants to somebody else.
Same old arguments being worn threadbare!
You can’t legislate morality? ALL legislation is legislated morality. Most of it based on religious precepts. Are we going to do away with laws against stealing and killing simply because religious texts agree with them?
Don’t support abortion? Don’t have one!
Ridiculous logic! Would you then say, “Don’t support bank robbery? Don’t rob a bank!” or “Don’t like child abuse? Then don’t abuse a child!” Laws are set for common good. Killing babies is not in the common good.
What about rape and incest?
What ABOUT rape and incest? If my baby is “already born” and her father abuses me horribly, is it okay for me to kill my daughter so that she doesn’t remind me of her father? Ridiculous! Rape and incest are awful, but killing the life that is the product of that crime is not going to diminish it at all, only add to the feelings of being violated and the pain that will linger. Making it worse is not the way to heal a female broken by sexual violence. Using it as an excuse for your political agenda is unconscionable.
Abortion is murder. Just because we sanction it doesn’t make it okay, just like sanctioning war in Iraq or Afghanistan doesn’t make it acceptable.
Not all prolifers are pro-war or pro-capital punishment. A few of us remain who are totally, completely 100% PRO-LIFE and consistent with that conviction. We don’t all petition abortion clinics and certainly would never commit an act of violence toward anyone. We are the quiet majority, but we ARE the majority. Some day, our voices will right this wrong and someday even further into the future, we will look back on this period of history the same way we now view the Holocaust, and we’ll question our complicity in such a horrific practice.
I pray that day comes soon.
Thanks, all, for keeping the comments here — on a subject many people are passionate about — mostly civil.
If the writers opinion that abortion is murder, then I suggest an even further step is any spilled seed that is wasted is tantamount to a half murder.
[i]mostly civil.[/i]
Except for those of us with yolk on our eyes, milling fetuses.
@davyne–Then call me Pol Pot.
What I don’t understand is the notion, of which everybody seems to be ignoring, and is paramount to this discussion, that a fetus is a full fledged human – a baby. Isn”t that paramount to this discussion? People calling it “baby killing” and “infanticide” need to understand that they don’t have the winning argument that a newly forming fetus gets the definition of humanhood. That’s the crux of the matter. I mean, it is so ridiculous, if you think about it,to suggest that more than half the people in this country are homicidal psychopaths with a deep-seeded need to kill precious little babies. Stop calling fetuses babies. It is a dumbing down of the issue, in my opinion.
Murder is all the homeless people we let die right here in Asheville, a place where we are “so cool” and “so christian”
People calling it “baby killing” and “infanticide” need to understand that they don’t have the winning argument that a newly forming fetus gets the definition of humanhood.
Who, what is the difference between your “fetus” and our “baby”? What is it that happens in the development of that fetus that magically turns it human at the point it is worthy of life? Biological? Spiritual? Is it, as so many profess, the point of viability? Because viability differs from child to child and there are records of babies being born live in an abortion procedure which persist in LIVING and have to be “finished off” by attending medical personnel. Is that murder? If the baby is born live, won’t die and they take steps to kill it?
Please enlighten us on that critical definition upon which the life of the baby hinges!
@Davyne: No, that is not equivalent. The difference is that a sperm is a sperm UNTIL it fertilizes an egg. Then it becomes a baby. This is a documentable, undeniable biological process that changes the nature the biology. It’s science. It’s not religion, it’s not politics, it’s science.
After that conception, there is growth. Growth, growth, growth, but nothing is ADDED to the biological mix (other than nutrition, but we have to add that even as already-born humans for as long as we want to live) that is not inherently created from WITHIN it.
THAT is the difference between seeds and LIFE.
No, not buying it “ProLife” you make a harsh argument…I’m carrying it to the next harsh step. Don’t want to participate in murder…keep you sperm from spilling unless it’s to procreate. Every sperm is half a potential human. All that wasted seed is a lot of half murders.
Pro-life, you had to take the extreme of a “live baby” being born. That is not most cases in abortion. There is room for discussion when it comes to what stages the pregnancy is in – can the fetus survive on its own? But then it is not a fetus anymore. Nobody knows when life starts – the question could be of stand alone self generating life. The wondering of a fetus’s life, while still in the womb, leads to a discussion of conciousness, life, and selfhood that nobody has of yet been able to answere – a can of worms. If we could nail that down, the big mystery of all would be solved. One’s religious sentiment can’t dictate law. To say that a fetus is separate from a woman’s body, when it is INSIDE her body, is like trying to convince me that water isn’t wet. How more together and not-separate can something be. The potentiality of human life doesn’t equal human life. As I said in another post, an acorn isn’t an oak tree. The idea of wasted sperm being murder is ridiculous. Even if a man doesn’t ejaculate is he still killing because of the potential life not set forth? If we were to believe that sperm is human life then it would be an endless count of dead humans to fill up the whole universe – with counting into infinity – going backwards and forwards. What is life, anyway? The law sides with choice.
Pro Life, according to my religious beliefs, whoever you think yourself to be really doesn’t exist. According to my belief, you and I don’t have separate souls – there is only SOUL. For whatever that is worth, backtrack that idea into the abortion issue. My pro choice doesn’t stand on my religious belief, though. My pro choice stands on the belief that you and I don’t have the right to tell another human being how to live there life and what to do with their body. My religious belief doesn’t prohibit other people from living and conducting their lives by their own concious (as long as it doesn’t harm others). The U.S. constitution mentions something about that. And I am going to pre-empt the argument that an abortion could have prevented a great benefactor to humanity. I remember that anti-choice commercial with Tim Tebow’s mom saying that if she had an abortion, her son wouldn’t have been a football star. I know that this is a crude suggestion, but to the point; the pro-choice advocates could have done a commercial featuring Ted Bundy’s mom.
It can be considered as absolute murder, there is life in the womb, it cannot be killed. Birth is just an awakening of senses but life still nurtures. M glad this is being discussed.
I can’t believe we are still discussing abortion … it is legal plain and simple.
This country is so backwards it’s scary!
I agree with Ken, I do not believe in god and all the foolishness the believers claim!!
It’s stupid and scary because it’s in the best interest of fundamentlists religions to keep their believers from questioning anything.
They are anti-women, anti-intellectual, anti-progress, anti-free thought.
I agree .. and shuler represents them well.
I can’t believe he does not support Planned Parenthood … will he support a new law that will take care of all these unwanted babies? .. I mean fetuses. He will not get my vote the next time.
Glad to see this wedge issue of no real consequence (When was the last time a Republican majority did a THING about it??) is still hotly debated while we send people to die in costly, unnecessary wars overseas.
Where is the outrage from the ‘moral majority’ for murder condoned by the state in the name of expanding empire? DO we stop caring for the ‘rights’ of a child once it leaves the womb?
But don’t you see B.S. it’s those unwanted lower economic status individuals with little chance for a good life that they depend on to become cannon fodder for their money making wars….THAT’s why they want the warm bodies. Otherwise they could care less.
Good point Dave.
Stop killing our unborn soldiers! We will have wars to fight in a few decades for the. Maybe less!
Some think this a moot issue. I say watch out. Scott Walker is becoming a GOP darling the way he forced a law without a vote. That has raised alot of eyebrows and could set precedent for new tactics. Right now states are putting forth laws to curb and restrict choice. It could happen under your noses slowly or quickly – as other things can. The American dream is crumbling before our eyes. What may fall down in the crumbling? Look at how a continued tax break for the extremely wealthy was continued – when states and the federal government are in financial crisis. Who would think that policies and laws so ludicrous just can’t be set – just too crazy to happen?
Here is a lady who believes abortion is murder. I don’t agree. However, how each of us defines abortion is not the issue and it never was. The issue is who is in charge; who makes the decision?
On the one hand you have people who recognize this as a very powerful issue and realize, because it has zero impact on civil law, this is a deep and profound personal decision.
Esentially we have two opposing groups; one group says we respect everyone, we respect each other and each person’s opinion and religious beliefs, we respect each person’s individual rights under the law and we respect each person’s right to make their own decisions especially regarding something so very private and intensely personal.
The other group says essentially, we have zero respect for anyone but ourselves, zero respect for anyone’s opinions but our own, no respect for anyone else’s religious beliefs or privacy, zero respect for the law and we believe we alone should dictate to everyone else how they should behave and we should make other people’s decisions for them. This opposing group, represented beautifully by the inflammatory suggestion abortion is murder, is the most arrogant position anyone could possibly take in my opinion.
I will never understand the selfrighteousness of someone who believes they have a special right to make decision for others and to define other people’s perceptions, religious beliefs and morality. Astounding.
Pro Life, according to my religious beliefs, whoever you think yourself to be really doesn’t exist. According to my belief, you and I don’t have separate souls – there is only SOUL. For whatever that is worth, backtrack that idea into the abortion issue. My pro choice doesn’t stand on my religious belief, though. My pro choice stands on the belief that you and I don’t have the right to tell another human being how to live there life and what to do with their body.
We share a common belief! My belief is ALSO that we have no right to tell another human being what to do with their body! Difference is, I count ALL humans, not just the biggest, strongest ones!
I will never understand the selfrighteousness (sic) of someone who believes they have a special right to make decision for others and to define other people’s perceptions, religious beliefs and morality. Astounding.
Me neither! And ESPECIALLY horrific are those who play loose with the LIVES of innocent people! How self-righteous does one need to be to make life and death decisions for the unborn???
If you want to debate the issue, I would recommend using SCIENCE, logic and reason to premise your stance. Otherwise, it makes no sense and is easily dismissed at being an argument based on emotion rather than fact. My questions still have not been answered from a biological stance … what is it that turns a “fetus” into a “baby” … ?
If there’s one thing I learned from my philosophy class, values are baseless if they are inconsistent, illogical or lack reason. In the case of abortion, there is no logical, reasonable or consistent basis for taking the lives of innocent babies while crying for the lives of war victims or those taken by capital punishment. That argument is JUST AS hypocritical as those who support life while supporting war and capital punishment.
Funny how the two sides of the issue use the same illogical logic to support their theories, while pointing the fingers at the other side for inconsistency! Well, it would be funny … if it weren’t so tragic. For the babies.
Just curious, B. Life: How do you feel about the laws against rape, murder, incest, bank robbery, embezzlement, child abuse, etc.? Are those also an unfair imposition of a religious doctrine?
If you want to know why the country is so blindly following such a doctrine, consider that most Americans are not educated enough to know what’s happening or how to stop it, and that those who are/do simply value the issue of abortion more highly than tax/economic issues. I am the most bleeding heart you will ever meet and have often voted Republican (with a clothespin on my nose) simply because there was a chance at affecting the abortion issue. We value life more highly than money.
Just curious, B. Life: How do you feel about the laws against rape, murder, incest, bank robbery, embezzlement, child abuse, etc.? Are those also an unfair imposition of a religious doctrine?
If you want to know why the country is so blindly following such a doctrine, consider that most Americans are not educated enough to know what’s happening or how to stop it, and that those who are/do simply value the issue of abortion more highly than tax/economic issues. I am the most bleeding heart you will ever meet and have often voted Republican (with a clothespin on my nose) simply because there was a chance at affecting the abortion issue. We value life more highly than money.
@B. Wolf: “I will never understand the selfrighteousness of someone who believes they have a special right to make decisions for others and to define other people’s perceptions, religious beliefs and morality.”
I agree. Such self-righteous thinking is not compatible with democracy.
“Stop killing our unborn soldiers! We will have wars to fight in a few decades for the. Maybe less!”
Bill, isn’t this a tad presumptuous of you assuming unborn fetuses are deemed to all be soldiers?
On another note, I culled this from an old online image; the slogan associated with this image, states: “77% anti-abortion leaders are men. 100% of them will never pregnant.” So true.
-It’s not my right, or place, as a male, to dictate to a woman what she can or cannot do with her own body. Isn’t killing innocent women, children, and men in war the same as abortion? Dohumans have less value as adults , than say, an unborn child. What about pro-death penalty-again, it’s killing. I am so disillusioned with our Government, that I have vowed to never vote again? Will I suffer. No.