On religion, the Gulf oil spill and our hypocrisy

Question: If we all go down to the Gulf shores, can we sweep back the tar balls with our brooms?

The real issue regarding Henderson County commissioners voting unanimously to retain prayer in the name of Jesus is the mockery and contempt that name causes. In the name of "freedom of expression," no minority shall be persecuted or mocked — except the name Jesus. It's open season on Jesus.

In Asheville, the "religion" is "ABC" — anything but Christianity. It's considered "cool" to throw ourselves totally into any exotic belief system that comes along. Jesus told us precisely what would happen in the last days — that men would persecute and revile you for my name's sake. Notice; look around; listen: Do you know of anyone mocking Islam? Mocking Judaism?

Your mockery of the commissioners is your having struck the tar baby. You are now as dirtied up as the Gulf. …

You think of yourselves as cool, enlightened, highly educated, so therefore you are not swayed by any ridiculous comments from Jesus. You are above such nonsense. Yet you are as ignorant of the questions I just asked you, as any medieval churl. You think of yourselves as having evolved above and beyond such nonsense, and certainly will not be held accountable for your mockery of God on any such ridiculous Judgment Day, nor sent to some ridiculous Hell (which, you should know by now, will be your beloved but burnt Earth, where you will live with no sun, no green, no graze, no animals, [and] therefore, no meat, no milk, hide or shoes, or the possibility of cotton for clothing — just naked you and the vermin, in total darkness. And there you are with tar on your fists, B'rer Rabbit.

— "Uncle Remus" (Frank Elliott)
Hendersonville

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117 thoughts on “On religion, the Gulf oil spill and our hypocrisy

  1. travelah

    Frank, that is the way of reprobate mind. Surely you do not expect anything otherwise?

  2. shadmarsh

    I would like to know just where is it “open season” on Jesus? Seriously, can you name one instance of such a thing? To follow the example of Jesus doesn’t have to include being persecuted. Too many Christians exclude the example of how he lived his life and instead go right for nailing themselves to the cross. Seriously.

    Also, on a side note, WTF is Frank talking about? Trav, you speak wing-nut, care to translate?

  3. travelah

    The standard wing nut translation is that all those “coexist” bumper stickers you see running around ‘tardville do not really apply to tolerance for Christianity.
    Now, as for the example of Jesus, He had the following to say about your world.

    “If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” (Joh 15:18-19 AV)

  4. “Holier than thou” is a Christian principle??????

    Puh-leeze, this is one of the more ignorant I’ve read lately. How does Uncle Remus know who is practicing or who is just talking. Hss he gotten to know all the folks in Asheville, on such an intimate level that he can see their lack of Christian principles /behavior?

    Take your bony finger of accusation and point it at your own self righteous behavior.

  5. shadmarsh

    Just one example, locally, regionally, nationally, whatever, of Christianity not being tolerated, please.

    My world is your world.

  6. Media Watcher

    This letter must have been a challenge for the editors. “If we print it, our readers will ridicule it. If we don’t print it, the writer will assume we’re not open to opposing points of view.” Citizen-Times prints ALL letters, left, right, center, articulate, incoherent, sane, crazy (or they used to), so readers know no editorial judgment is being exercised. How does MountainX decide what to print?

  7. travelah
  8. JWTJr

    I’d like to see all religions get equal time on TV and movies when it comes to bashing. A fairness doctrine so to speak.

    We know that won’t happen though because Hollywood and the press are afraid of getting unexpectedly blown up or after much torture, having their heads slowly cut off with a rusty knife. You have to admit, those methods have worked pretty well as deterrents.

    MX – Why don’t you start a Mohammad bashing cartoon? Women’s rights would be a good topic to start with. It would make a great story. Just let me know when you are going to start it, so we’ll all know to stay away from your office.

  9. shadmarsh

    Trav… you can’t be serious with those links. I mean really?

  10. Barry Summers

    I like this letter. I’m in favor of anything that makes me look less crazy by comparison.

  11. Media Watcher

    I’m puzzled that Shad Marsh dismisses the poster who call himself “Travelah” with the comment,”you can’t be serious with those links. I mean really?” One of the links goes to an article titled, “Vandals desecrate pro-gay Catholic church,” which seems like something readers of MtX should be concerned about. (Two of the links didn’t work for me.) I did find some apparently believable reports on “Intolerance against Christians.” For example, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) and the Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR) report, “In 2007, violent manifestations of hate continued to affect Christians and members of other religions. As mentioned previously, incidents against Christians are considered to be under-recorded, as they usually take place in the context of restrictions on the right to freedom of religion or belief.” (http://www.osce.org/odihr/item_1_36593.html) This is not an argument for or against the letter writer, just a comment on the phenomenon of comments that assume a writer espousing a conservative point of view, “can’t be serious.” MountainX, even the presumed liberal New York Times has two conservative columnists who, in this reader’s view, offer “serious” intellectual argument. My previous question: did you print the letter to hold the writer up to ridicule, or did you consider his viewpoint was a serious contribution to discussion?

  12. Barry Summers

    “…maybe we should form a club of people who Barry Summers points his bony, sanctimonious finger at.”

    “Take your bony finger of accusation and point it at your own self righteous behavior.”

    What’s up with the ‘bony finger’ thing, Davynne? Seriously. Did someone buy you one of those page-a-day “Ad Hominem” calendars? Because I think the intention is that you mix it up a little, not re-use the same ad hominem over & over until tomorrow…

  13. pff

    [b]Your mockery of the commissioners is your having struck the tar baby.[/b]

    Can someone translate that for me?

  14. Barry Summers

    And BTW, that was another gentle wagging of the finger, not a point.

  15. Ken Hanke

    I like this letter. I’m in favor of anything that makes me look less crazy by comparison

    It makes everybody except the usual suspects look pretty well balanced.

  16. Margaret Williams

    For the record, anonymous MediaWatcher, we printed every letter that was received in time for publication the week the “Uncle Remus” letter ran, although some had to be edited for length (our limit is about 300 words, although occasionally we’ll allow longer ones when space permits), and several strained our notion of being locally focused.

    Our letters policy is pretty simple and open: http://www.mountainx.com/opinion/information/

    Uncle Remus’ letter certainly seems to have won on the point of promoting interesting dialogue.

  17. shadmarsh

    Mediawatcher,

    I “dismissed” the links that Trav posted because they contain nothing but paranoid delusions of persecution. Yes, the “Attack” on the pro-gay church is heinous (as any attack on any such institution religious or secular would be) but to suggest that such an act is somehow endemic is farcical, and really only goes to prove my point: The notion that there is some sort of widespread conspiracy of intolerance against Christians in this country is laughable, no matter what that twit Bill Donahue would have you believe (and you will notice that in the link to Donahue that TRav selected even he doesn’t name one specific incident of an actual crime committed, just sweeping statements).

  18. Media Watcher

    Thank you to Margaret Williams for reply. Yes, indeed, the letter writer did fulfill your goal, “to promote thoughtful, diverse community dialogue. It is a forum where our readers may express opinions on issues – particularly those addressed by recent articles, commentary or other letters in Xpress.”

  19. Media Watcher

    FBI Hate Crimes statistics for 2004 show 954 offenses against Jews, 57 against Catholics, 38 against Protestants, 156 aainst Muslims. Figures for 2008:

    Of the 1,732 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:

    * 66.1 percent were targeted because of an offender’s anti-Jewish bias.
    * 7.5 percent were victims because of an anti-Islamic bias.
    * 5.1 percent were victims because of an anti-Catholic bias.
    * 3.6 percent were victims because of an anti-Protestant bias.
    * 0.8 percent were targeted because of an anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.
    * 12.8 percent were victims because of a bias against other religions (anti-other religion).
    * 4.0 percent were victims because of a bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group).

    It appears that anti-Christian (Catholic, Protestant combined) crimes are higher than anti-Islamic crimes.

  20. travelah

    PhD,
    There isn’t any evidence that is acceptable to you. Everything presented is dismissed as paranoia. There are countless examples in this country and abroad however none of them will be acepted by you. YOU are part of the problem.

    http://www.naacd.com/updates10.htm

  21. shadmarsh

    YOU are part of the problem.

    Perhaps it is this mentality that is part of the problem?

  22. Thanks for actual numbers Media Watcher. I don’t see how you come to the conclusion that there are more anti-Christian hate crimes from those numbers though. 156 (Muslim) > 95 (Catholic + Protestant).

    We should also take into account that in the US there are over 173 million Christians and only 1.4 million Muslims. Muslims have a 0.01% chance of being the victim of a hate crime where as Christians only have 0.00005% chance. Worst off are the 2.68 million Jews who have a 0.0356% chance of being the victim of a religious hate crime.

    This is comparing your 2004 hate crime numbers to estimated 2008 religious demographics. I am also surprised at how few religious hate crimes are reported as such. I would imagine the numbers are actually higher than 1,732 for an entire year over the whole country.

  23. Barry Summers

    It appears that anti-Christian (Catholic, Protestant combined) crimes are higher than anti-Islamic crimes.

    By 1.2 percent, or in that sample, somewhere between 10 and 20 reported cases. In a country (according to wikipedia) of roughly 173 million Christians, and 1.4 million Muslims, that means you’re 125 times more likely to be a victim of a hate crime if you’re Muslim than if you’re Christian. Is that the point you were trying to make with those stats?

  24. Barry Summers

    It appears that anti-Christian (Catholic, Protestant combined) crimes are higher than anti-Islamic crimes.

    And it’s likely that a portion of those anti-catholic or anti-protestant crimes are rooted in Christian Fratricide, ala Northern Ireland, or the long, bloody Calvinist/Arminian struggle.

  25. shadmarsh

    Well those stats are missing the obvious crimes against Christians committed by gay couples wanting equality under the law.

  26. Barry Summers

    And don’t forget the Atheists criminally refusing to vanish in a puff of Divine retribution.

  27. Barry Summers

    Trav, that last link you put up has on it’s ‘current’ list of attacks on Christianity, the film “Brokeback Mountain”. Isn’t that 4 or 5 years ago now? And didn’t Willie Nelson put that issue to rest with his song, “Cowboys Are Frequently Secretly Fond of Each Other”?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u4CXlIYjyE

  28. Ken Hanke

    Trav, that last link you put up has on it’s ‘current’ list of attacks on Christianity, the film “Brokeback Mountain”.

    Brokeback Mountain qualifies as an “attack on Christianity?” That would seem to indicate than anything that isn’t “scripturally based” (or biased) is an attack. In short anything that doesn’t agree with a lockstep Christian mindset would merit inclusion for an attack on Christianity. This would, I presume, include the stance of the Episcopal Church in the realm of gays.

  29. Barry Summers

    With the movie Brokeback Mountain, featuring a secret love affair between two male cowboy characters, Tinseltown has now launched a salvo against the rich history and cultural influence of the American Old West…With the movie Brokeback Mountain, featuring a secret love affair between two male cowboy characters, Tinseltown has now launched a salvo against the rich history and cultural influence of the American Old West. …while flipping the bird to the distinctly heterosexual American West, where men were men, women were women, and neither slept with members of the same gender! If you want more proof there is an agenda behind this move, consider that the advance praise for this film has only been matched by the advance criticism of Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ. As much as Tinseltown loves ‘gay’ cowboys, they hated Jesus!

    Wow. And I thought people hated the Passion of the Christ because it was a crappy snuff film. Now I know it was because they hated Jesus!

  30. Ken Hanke

    With the movie Brokeback Mountain, featuring a secret love affair between two male cowboy characters, Tinseltown has now launched a salvo against the rich history and cultural influence of the American Old West. …while flipping the bird to the distinctly heterosexual American West, where men were men, women were women, and neither slept with members of the same gender!

    The compounded ignorance in that statement is absolutely mind-boggling. Set aside the assinine notion that there were no gay folks in the “American Old West” — which is ridiculous enough — and realize these bozos don’t even know what they’re objecting to since Brokeback Mountain does not take place in the “Old West.”

    If you want more proof there is an agenda behind this move, consider that the advance praise for this film has only been matched by the advance criticism of Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ. As much as Tinseltown loves ‘gay’ cowboys, they hated Jesus!

    Uh, advance praise or scorn comes from critics, most of whom are not in the employ or working at the behest of “Tinseltown.”

  31. Gary

    Frank, it’s not Jesus or his new testament teachings people are mocking…it’s your (and most of Christianity’s) twisted interpretation we mock. Your attitude of “everybody’s wrong but me, and therefore you’re all going to hell” just doesn’t cut it. I feel sad for you and your pitiful narrow viewpoint.

  32. Carrie

    Ha!!! That is hilarious.

    As to the “persecution” of Christians in Asheville, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an example of that. Some do love to throw that word around, though. Mr. Elliott talks about persecution & mocking of Jesus in Asheville, haven’t seen that either.
    I have heard mocking of SOME who make insane and ignorant statements, like those about “Brokeback Mountain”, where anything perceived as not being about a “Christian” way of life is deemed an agenda and an attack on their entire religion.

    People aren’t persecuting Christians. Maybe they’re just tired of some of the hypocritical, intolerant, and ignorant views held by some of their members!

  33. “FBI Hate Crimes statistics for 2004 show 954 offenses against Jews, 57 against Catholics, 38 against Protestants, 156 against Muslims.

    Not much of a real trend showing up on the the FBI’s stats. Where are those pesky oppression numbers when one needs them.

    Anyone using that bellicose Donahue nut is suspect….he’s an apologist for the ongoing international scandal of priest abusing children.

  34. Carrie

    Thanks for reminding me, D.! I forgot to add “abhorrent criminal conduct” to my list of things people may or may not be upset with:)

  35. Barry Summers

    I thought people hated the Passion of the Christ because it was a crappy snuff film. Now I know it was because they hated Jesus!

    Oh yeah, and because Mel Gibson is a raving anti-semite.

  36. Betty Cloer Wallace

    …..the distinctly heterosexual American West, where men were men, women were women, and neither slept with members of the same gender…..

    And why was it that Marshall Dillon never hung his hat up at Kitty’s place?

  37. shadmarsh

    Why do they have to go to the school to give away the Bible? I mean that, in and of itself is proselytizing. No one is saying “Ban the Bible!” They are free to give it out in other places, and the kids are free to bring their own and read it during study hall or whatever. Is this really all you can find? How about you surprise us once and actually respond to one of the many points made in this thread instead of just throwing out red herrings. In the immortal words of the Prophet Waits: come down off the cross, we can use the wood.

  38. shadmarsh

    Oh yeah, and because Mel Gibson is a raving anti-semite.

    From what I hear it is not to fond of the black man either.

  39. Carrie

    Travelah: I think I’ll have to wait for more info to come out until making a judgment on school thing. I’ll wait for the school’s reasoning… this particular group has been at the event in the past, maybe their behavior has warranted them being denied this year. I don’t know but until there is more information it can hardly be proof of anything.

    I did find it funny that they were seeking money damages!

  40. Barry Summers

    Set aside the assinine notion that there were no gay folks in the “American Old West”…

    Supposedly, Johnny Carson once asked Michael Landon about the lack of women on the Ponderosa during the show “Bonanza”… Michael Landon said, “No, the Cartwright boys weren’t gay. But luckily, Hop Sing was.”

  41. Ken Hanke

    Why do they have to go to the school to give away the Bible? I mean that, in and of itself is proselytizing.

    But, Shad, the Bible is how (according to the Bible promoters) many of the founding fathers learned how to read. Without it they would have been illiterate, so it follows that the Bible is an educational tool. First of all, I don’t think they should be handing out Bibles at schools. Second, this comes from Fox news and that says a whole lot right there.

  42. Barry Summers

    I did find it funny that they were seeking money damages!

    I also found it funny they refer to themselves as a ‘secular organization’ that should be treated the same as other groups. And they make this alarming leap:

    “The distribution of religious literature in a forum opened for secular literature is constitutionally protected.”

    Meaning, ‘If you put your children in a public school, we will put a religious text in their hands, and you can’t stop us.’

  43. Carrie

    The World Changers Church is, let’s say, interesting. They preach Prosperity Theology-God gives money/wealth to those he likes.

    Well, God must like the founder more than 99% of everyone else:)

  44. Barry Summers

    Cecil must be one of the 0.8 percent of religious hate crime victims who were targeted because of an anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias…

    Speaking of which, I ran the numbers from MediaWatcher’s FBI stats against the demographic numbers of the US found at wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

    Check my math if you’d like, as this was done on the fly, but I think these are in the ballpark.

    If you identified as a member of one of these groups, this is how likely you were to have reported a religious-based hate crime to the FBI in 2008:

    Jewish: 1 in 2358
    Muslim: 1 in 10,385
    Aethist/Agnostic: 1 in 25,714
    Christian: 1 in 1,145,690

    It looks like it’s really only 111 times more likely to be a victim of a hate crime in the US if you’re Muslim than if you’re Christian. Sorry about that earlier ‘125 times worse’. My bad.

  45. Carrie

    What are the numbers associated with the percentage of religious-based hate crimes COMMITTED by Christians?

  46. Barry Summers

    The World Changers Church is, let’s say, interesting.

    I think you may be referring to the wrong ‘World Changers’ here – the one in the Florida bible case is here:

    http://www.worldchangersfl.com/index.html

    The one headed by the controversial pastor “Creflo Dollar” (not his real name), who preaches the ‘prosperity theology’ thing, based in Georgia, is here:

    http://www.worldchangers.org/

    They don’t appear to be at all related.

  47. Carrie

    Thanks, Barry. Dollar’s is funny. I’ll check out the FL one.

  48. Barry Summers

    All in all, the phony sense of Christian “victimization” presented by folks like Travelah, or Bill O’Reilly (War on Christmas), or William Donohue, or these proselytizers in Florida, is laughable in the context of a country that is majority Christian and dominated politically, culturally, and militarily by Christians.

    Claiming that you are ‘persecuted’ by the minorities in your midst while you hold the reigns of power… well, historically, that has never led to anything good.

  49. travelah

    PhD, it does not matter the reason why they wish to give them away or where. The fact remains they are being prevented from doing so.

  50. shadmarsh

    Uhhh…no. They are being prevented from doing so at a specific place. There is a difference. And feel free to respond to the multitude of evidence provided here to refute your claims that Christians are persecuted in the USA…or just throw out more red herrings.

  51. travelah

    The majority of this country are not Christians. It would be more appropriate to state the majority are within Christendom (I’ll let you discover the distinctions) Using a rough number, 20% of the electorate put the most radical President we have ever had into office.
    As for “Brokeback Mountain”, I would not agree that is an example of Christian discrimination.

  52. travelah

    PhD, there had never been any interference prior to now. The specifics of the location of the discrimination are irrelevant to matter. The discrimination remains. As I have previously stated, there is no evidence acceptable to you. In this case you dismiss it as a red herring indicating you have no idea what a red herring is.

  53. Ken Hanke

    The majority of this country are not Christians

    The majority of persons you’re claiming aren’t Christians — which I presume means anyone who isn’t a fundamentalist — might argue that distinction.

  54. Barry Summers

    As for “Brokeback Mountain”, I would not agree that is an example of Christian discrimination.

    Yet you triumph-ally tout the website that claims it is as proof of your assertions. Weak.

    The majority of this country are not Christians.

    100,000,000 American Christians just said, “Hey, I’ve just been oppressed!”

  55. shadmarsh

    Barry and Ken,

    Please stop being so rational it is unfair to Travelah.

  56. Ken Hanke

    Your presumption is incorrect

    So what is your definition of a Christian?

  57. travelah

    I did not “triumphantly tout” anything. I provided a link to a site that has many examples of what they feel are evidences of intolerance toward Christians. I agree with most. Some I do not agree with.

    It is better to explain to Ken what is not evidence of being a Christian. A person born into a family whose mother attends a Christian church 3 times a month is not a Christian because of that. A Christian is defined by the apostle Paul in the following passage.

    “But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.” (Ro 10:8-11 AV)

    That is not a “fundamentalist” passage. It is a biblical description of what constitutes a Christian.

  58. Ken Hanke

    That is not a “fundamentalist” passage. It is a biblical description of what constitutes a Christian

    I strongly suspect that most people who call themselves Christians at least believes they qualify on that basis.

  59. Barry Summers

    It would be more appropriate to state the majority are within Christendom (I’ll let you discover the distinctions) Using a rough number, 20% of the electorate put the most radical President we have ever had into office.

    Wait a minute… what? How are those two sentences at all related?

  60. travelah

    Those who might self identify as Christians in the evangelical sense would probably agree with that. However, the contention was with what is best described as Christendom and not Christianity.

  61. travelah

    Barry, I would have to take too much of my time explaining it to you.

  62. shadmarsh

    Barry, I would have to take too much of my time explaining it to you.

    Then let me summarize: Obama is the Antichrist.

  63. travelah

    No, that is not correct but it might explain why you are not mayor.

  64. travelah

    To help PhD with his logical deficiencies, here is Barry’s comment to which I made my reply:

    All in all, the phony sense of Christian “victimization” presented by folks like Travelah, or Bill O’Reilly (War on Christmas), or William Donohue, or these proselytizers in Florida, is laughable in the context of a country that is majority Christian and dominated politically, culturally, and militarily by Christians.

    Claiming that you are ‘persecuted’ by the minorities in your midst while you hold the reigns of power… well, historically, that has never led to anything good.

    Now, PhD, consider that statement in light of my comment regarding the 20%ers and the illogic of Barry’s less than developed mind should spark a thought in your own highly advanced structure.

  65. shadmarsh

    You keep bringing up the mayor thing. Why is this? I am guessing this is an attempt to rub it perhaps? But fwiw there is nothing to rub in.

    Also, you seem top have lots of time on your hands, so why not take the time to back up your statement, especially as provocative (and laughable) as referring to our current President as a radical. Just based on his policies, if Obama is a radical, then Nixon must have been the reincarnation of Karl Marx.

  66. shadmarsh

    Now, PhD, consider that statement in light of my comment regarding the 20%ers and the illogic of Barry’s less than developed mind should spark a thought in your own highly advanced structure

    What in Gods name are you blathering about?

  67. Betty Cloer Wallace

    Ken, Barry, Carrie, and Shadmarsh, I think you might understand Travelah’s comments and positions a lot better, and in context, if you go to his blog, which is quite extensive and quite explanatory.

    Blog site of A. M. Mallett, aka “travelah” of Charleston, SC (AN INTROSPECTIVE OF AN ARMINIAN CHRISTIAN):

    http://travelah.blogspot.com/

    See also this particular blog archive for two concise definitions/statements by Mr. Mallett/Travelah:

    http://travelah.blogspot.com/2008_06_01_archive.html

    “Why Am I An Arminian?”

    “SEA Statement of Faith”

    Mr. Mallett/Travelah also invites “comments and inquiries” at his e-mail address: travelah@gmail.com

  68. tatuaje

    SEA Statement of Faith

    1. We believe the Scriptures as originally given by God, both Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired Word of God, infallible, entirely trustworthy, and the supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct.

    This always makes me laugh.

    Which version?

    When a comparison is made between the seven major critical editions of the Greek NT verse-by-verse – namely Tischendorf, Westcott-Hort, Von Soden, Vogels, Merk, Bover, and Nestle-Aland – only 62.9% of verses are variant free.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history

    scriptural inerrancy is established by a number of observations and processes, which include:[4]

    * The historical accuracy of the Bible
    * The Bible’s claims of its own inerrancy
    * Church history and tradition
    * One’s individual experience with God

    Give me a break. Basically, the basis behind inerrancy is the classic ‘BECAUSE I SAID SO!’.

    What rubbish.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy

  69. travelah

    PhD, perhaps I have over estimated your finesse.

    Betty, I had not revisited some of those posts for a while but they provide a reasonable representation of my viewpoint as well as that of a significant number of other evangelicals. I would not expect most non-Christians to have much interest in the subject matter of the site.

  70. travelah

    Tats, out of curiosity, would you point out the word “inerrancy” in the statement you addressed? I do not hold to or endorse the term inerrancy as it is applied to the Bible although I realize that many do. However, the use of the term usually ends up being qualified when it is pointed out that it is a particular scientific term and not particularly synonymous with infallibility.

    This is off topic with this thread.

  71. Barry Summers

    Trav, you skipped right past explaining any connection between your definition of what constitutes being a Christian, and the fact that the voters elected Obama President, and jumped straight into a personal insult. This will go into the “Travelah’s pitiful surrender” file.

    Yay! Sing a long with me…

    “We are the champions
    No time for losers
    Cause we are the champions – of the world

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sogKUx_q7ig

  72. Barry Summers

    …the illogic of Barry’s less than developed mind…

    And just because I have flippers for hands & have to type on a gigantic keyboard made for performing dolphins, my mind is sharp as a tack. How dare you insult God’s creation like that, you Calvinist!!

  73. Oh now I get it…this is over the “sign”. And travelah is compelled to rain down some hell fire and damnation on this hippie den of iniquity.

    Only now the iniquity has suddenly spread all over the nation…can the world be far behind? Elmer Gantry, Jim Jones, Jim and Tammy Faye Baker come to mind. Looks like it’s travelah’s way of religiosity, or drink the koolaid.

  74. Oh now I get it…this is over the “sign”. And travelah is compelled to rain down some hell fire and damnation on this hippie den of iniquity.

    Only now the iniquity has suddenly spread all over the nation…can the world be far behind? Elmer Gantry, Jim Jones, Jim and Tammy Faye Baker come to mind. Looks like it’s travelah’s way of religiosity, or drink the koolaid.

  75. Betty Cloer Wallace

    @Travelah/Mallett: I would not expect most non-Christians to have much interest in the subject matter of the site.

    Well, I was fascinated with your blog site and your related links—rather like a crash course in comparative Christianity—and I spent much of a month reading it.

    Blogs and forums do serve as expeditious avenues for evangelicalism. No need to preach to the people who already agree with you, to those already on board the glory train. ‘Tis the others you want to be reaching out to—MtnX readers drowning in the Sea of Iniquity and readers deficient in the finer points of Christian terminology such as inerrancy and persecution and tolerance.

  76. Betty Cloer Wallace

    @Travelah/Mallett: This is off topic with this thread.

    Well, actually, we’re spot-on with this thread and getting right to the heart of Frank Elliott’s (Uncle Remus’s) commentary, and I do hope he will see fit to join in the discussion since he instigated it and got us all interested in his way of thinking about our sinful condition: our being “as ignorant…as any medieval churl,” engaging in “mockery and contempt” of the name of Jesus and of God and of the Henderson County commissioners, striking “the tar baby” and having “tar on (our) fists, B’rer Rabbit,” “sweeping back tar balls with our brooms” and being as “dirtied up as the Gulf,” engaging in “(Asheville’s) religion of ABC–Anything But Christianity,” being “held accountable…on Judgment Day,” knowing “what will happen in the last days,” and suffering “Hell…burnt Earth…no sun, no green, no graze, no animals…no meat, no milk, hide or shoes, or…cotton for clothing…just naked you and the vermin, in total darkness.”

    Oh, my. Be still my heart.

    Jonathan Edwards couldn’t a’preached it better. In fact, Frank Elliott/Uncle Remus sounds an awfully lot like Edwards’s Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God, known back in colonial times for setting sinners a’trembling in their pews. And MtnX readers will be, too. And Hendersonville residents, no doubt.

  77. travelah

    Betty,
    Most of the MX community is not drowning in iniquity. They are going about their ways content as one can be thinking they have all the answers and anything that holds them accountable is to be held in derision.
    As for Edwards, the opening letter is not at all similar to Edwards particular content or style of delivery. Edwards work, Sinners, is considered a treasure of American literature even though most in Asheville have little inkling of the depth of it’s inquiry. I state that not as one who agrees with Edward’s particular theology. For that matter I am adamantly opposed to his determinist philosophy. However, prior to the post modernism assault on the sensibilities of classical education, Sinners was absolutely essential reading for anybody studying early American literature.
    Personally, I think you cheapen yourself with these kinds of replies although you will certainly score a pat or two amidst the peanut shells. Nonetheless, I hope you found at least something of interest to read from the resources I have gathered.

  78. travelah

    Oh now I get it…this is over the “sign”. And travelah is compelled to rain down some hell fire and damnation on this hippie den of iniquity.

    There should be a tee shirt given for this kind of tripe.

  79. Ken Hanke

    They are going about their ways content as one can be thinking they have all the answers and anything that holds them accountable is to be held in derision.

    You, of course, do nothing like that.

  80. travelah

    You, of course, do nothing like that.

    Generally speaking, no.

    I wanna tee shirt.

    Why do you think anybody would want to see you in a tee shirt???

  81. Barry Summers

    Why do you think anybody would want to see you in a tee shirt???

    Wow – straight into insult without even having a question to dodge. Another one for the “Travelah’s pitiful surrender” file.

    All kidding aside, Mr. Mallet. I pity you for the dark angry little universe you’ve created for yourself. That’s your right, of course. Just don’t think you can then claim the right to jam the rest of us in there with you. I’m happy to say I don’t believe in a vengeful, vindictive, kool-aid dispensing God like you do.

  82. travelah

    Barry, you just make it so easy. Don’t have pity for me. I am as happy as can be and enjoy life immensely. I just spent the day at the beach with the grandkids and I’m going to enjoy a good meateater’s dinner and relax with a good wine. I’ll enjoy it knowing I do not have to jam you anywhere you don’t willingly enter.

  83. Ok officially it’s
    All hellfire and damnation shall rain down on the hippie den of iniquity known as Asheville
    Travelah aka Mr Mallet

  84. Betty Cloer Wallace

    @Travelah/Mallett: …..prior to the post modernism assault on the sensibilities of classical education, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God was absolutely essential reading for anybody studying early American literature.

    Not past tense at all! Edwards is still required reading in my classes and many others nationwide.

    One can neither understand nor appreciate religious fundamentalists such as Hendersonville’s Frank Elliott and other Christian literalists today without a healthy dose of Jonathan Edwards’s Puritan Calvinism in colonial America. Their brand of communication is classic and timeless, and we should treasure their historical significance if not their fearsome, nightmare-inducing Biblical interpretations.

  85. Ken Hanke

    Generally speaking, no.

    It really doesn’t look that way from the outside.

  86. pff

    Those poor, maligned Christian White Males. It must be tough being so persecuted.

  87. Barry Summers

    It really doesn’t look that way from the outside.

    Folks like the travmeister will never acknowledge their hypocrisy, any more than the Vatican will acknowledge that it is the structure and strictures of Roman Catholicism that leads to the systematic sexual abuse of their own children.

    The true evil on this planet is that which leads human beings to believe that Their Faith is the One True Faith, and that anyone who disagrees is one step closer to Hell, and therefore God will look the other way if you snuff them. How many innocents have been murdered by pious Catholics, Sunnis, Jews, Protestants, Shiites, Animists, Zoroastrianists, Baal worshippers, etc. etc., who felt they were justified because their religious leaders told them that the Others were Unclean, Heretics, Sinners, Reprobates, whatever, and that they were persecuting the Righteous, and that therefore God wanted you to Run Them Through with a spear, or Tie Them to a Pole & set them on fire, etc…

    This is the sad, violent history of the human race, and the momentum keeps rolling on to the next atrocity every time some psychotic claims that “They” are wrong, and “We” are right, because “My special book tells me so…”

  88. With that said, we can verily close the door on this phantom damnation…..go out and rejoice in our t-shirts, and try our best to avoid these self appointed keepers of the wordl………these self important pherisees, at all costs.

    Hitler had God on his side too.

  89. entopticon

    If you are looking for continuity from traveliar, a fundamentalist evangelical who uses Barry Goldwater, who famously despised evangelicals, as his moniker icon, you certainly have your work cut out for you. traveliar, the same right wing extremist who endlessly rants about how much he hates the liberal “tards” of Asheville, yet spends virtually all of his days hanging out on the liberal weekly’s website. He’s the type of person that goes to the same Chinese restaurant restaurant every day so that he can complain to the waitress that there is nothing except Chinese food on the menu.

  90. Barry Summers

    Ichabod Crane from wikipedia:

    “He follows strict morals in the schoolroom, including the proverbial “Spare the rod and spoil the child”; outside the schoolroom, he is shown to have few morals and no motive but his own gratification… In addition to this, he is excessively superstitious, often to the extent of believing every myth, legend, tall tale, etc. to be literally true.”

    Apropos, Cecil.

  91. Cheshire

    Travelah: are you back in Lake Juneluska or are you still down at your winter place in Charleston?

  92. Betty Cloer Wallace

    LOL, Entopticon. Travelah/Mallet did try mightily to co-opt Frank Elliott’s diatribe, and partially succeeded, as well as derailing the on-going analysis of hellfire-and-brimstone evangelicalism as personified by Elliott.

    When Jonathan Edwards and his 17th Century predecessors and 18th Century colleagues were preaching extremist fear-mongering fundamentalism in Colonial America, they had brought their extremist religious beliefs and social customs from their homelands and continued to practice them unchanged along the North Atlantic coast of North America—beliefs that were extremely oppressive and dangerous to women, slaves, servants, children, and anyone else who was not a white male landowner.

    The religious fervor reached its zenith (recent larger lethal tragedies notwithstanding) with the 1690s Salem witch trials in which the deaths of more than three dozen people (hanged, pressed to death with stones, or died in prison) were attributed to zealous Puritan church ministers.

    When political conservatives nowadays pay homage to European settlers of this continent as people seeking religious freedom, they are inevitably referring to those extremist religious sects such as Pilgrims (anti-Anglican Separatists) and Puritans (Anglican loyalists) who came here more than a century before our “founding fathers” decided that “freedom” meant separation of church and state—including freedom from the oppressive extremism of those sects—as well as economic freedom.

    Fundamentalist Christians today totally ignore the fact that the colonies were funded and settled for a variety of economic reasons, primarily land acquisition and commerce, >not for religious freedom, and that religious freedom came much later—in 1776 and gradually thereafter.

    Even after 1776, “freedom” was a long time coming for most of the North American population, and we’re still working at it—in spite of those who want us to remain stuck in colonial times.

  93. kim

    hippie den of iniquity, isn’t that where Jesus liked to hang out?

  94. mule

    Proof once again that the Romans were right.

    Xtians = good cat food!

  95. Matthew

    I like the imagery and alliteration at the end of this letter. This fellow is definitely a poet who hasn’t found his calling.

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