Hear the Bier Garden fight 911 call

Hear the Bier Garden fight 911 call-attachment0

ALE agent David Miller was belligerent and threatening in a fight with a Bier Garden manager and an employee on May 24, manager Malcolm Knighten asserted in a 911 call that night.

Knighten dialed 911 shortly after the fight began. Listen to the call here:

“I’ve got a fight in my bar,” Knighten says on the recording of the call. “I guess this guy’s a police officer, but he’s just making threats and cussing at people. He’s physically fighting my bouncer right now. We suspect he may or may not be intoxicated.”

In the background on the recording someone, presumably Miller, can be heard saying “you’re going to get maced for real, dude,” at bouncer Michael Plemmons after the fight started.

ALE supervisor Alan Page has alleged that Miller was writing tickets for employees and their friends illegally drinking after hours when he was suddenly assaulted, unprovoked, by Plemmons. Page also asserts that Knighten later struck Miller twice with a bar stool before both he and Plemmons were arrested.

In the 911 call, Knighten said that Miller was pepper-spraying Plemmons. The manager tells Plemmons, “Mikey, hang on until the police get here,” and then, after screaming and sounds of a struggle are heard in the background, shouts to Miller, “You’re not acting like a cop at all and I don’t believe you are.”

The call ends with the arrival of Asheville Police officers.

Knighten was charged with assault with a deadly weapon, while Plemmons was charged with assault inflicting serious injury. Charges of resisting arrest and interfering with an Alcohol Beverage Control inspection were later added. Page has also said that ALE might pursue administrative penalties against the bar. He told Xpress today that he would have more information on the agency’s course of action later in the week.

— David Forbes, staff writer

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124 thoughts on “Hear the Bier Garden fight 911 call

  1. Jobi

    Thank you for posting this MtnX. The community at large will appreciate your continued coverage of this and I doubt any other news media in town will cover it with any degree of objectivity.

  2. damn! the guy who made the phone call was charged with assault with a deadly weapon? he sounded calm & rational during the call. great post.

  3. steve

    hmmmm…

    wonder what the apologists will say now…

    ralph, billy p, crazy ‘t’…

  4. Dionysis

    Well, this recording sure throws a different light on the depiction offered by law enforcement. Perhaps there will be counter lawsuites against Miller coming down the pike. If it is proven he acted in a heavy-handed, inappropriate way, then he should be held accountable just as anyone else would be.

  5. After Hours

    The bar employees knew what they were doing was illegal and know who the ALE is. You can’t hit a guy over the head with a bar stool. Doing that knowing it was an ALE agent is almost worthy of a Darwin award. I spent a lot of time in the the restaurant industry and know what goes on after hours.

  6. JLAVERD

    Malcolm Knighten is NOT a violent person. He’s always peaceful, rational and kind. He’s Zen throughout the whole phone conversation.

    David Miller HAD to be doing and saying ridiculously awful things to get struck by a person like Malcolm, that is for sure.

    David Miller HAD to be saying and doing horrible horrible things to infuriate Malcolm to the point of bar-stooling him in the back. Twice.

    A proper investigation leading to reverse course and drop all charges against the Bier Garden employees, in addition to issuing proper sanctions to agent Miller is more than in place here.

    Any other outcome would be a blatant exhibit of a corrupted police and legal systems.

    It is never alright to attack an officer of the law, but unidentified, belligerent and presumably intoxicated, an officer of the law forfeits respect and police privileges.
    It is never alright to attack an officer of the law, but after seeing this video of Chicago cop Anthony Abbate last year, I can’t help but wonder where was the manager with the bar-stool then.
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8559905342145241658&q=chicago%20police%20bartender&hl=en

  7. DonM

    I suppose the repeated silence by Malcom to the 911 operator’s questions was because he had to put the phone down to pick up a bar stool with which to attack agent Miller.

    After Hours, you’re correct. ALL bar operators and store operators know who their ALE agent is. They also know the law and the law was clearly being broken by the after-hours imbibers. Darwin, indeed.

  8. travelah

    One of the key questions to ask in court will be if the bar manager had ever encountered Mr. Miller before. As mentioned before, the facts of this case will come out in the court room and a 911 call, by a calm speaking man who has been charged with felony assault, does not settle this matter in any sense of the word. Some of the facts are plainly known. An ALE officer was assaulted. Employees and patrons were drinking in the bar past 2:30am and police were called to investigate an assault upon a law officer.

  9. cwaster

    Sounds like both parties were in the wrong. Granted, after hours drinking at a bar is illegal. However, it doesn’t sound like the ALE officer was very professional at all. Good to hear the other side of the story, the one that usually gets swept under the rug.

  10. LOKEL

    Just exactly how is it that Mr Knighten managed to “strike the officer 2 times with a bar stool” while he was on the phone talking fairly calmly with the 911 operator and describing what was going on…. it seems to me the ALE nit-wits have some explaining to do.

    Another interesting statement, is Mr Knighten saying that “you are not acting lilke a cop, and I don’t believe you are…” so what was the officer doing?

    Good job Xpress!

  11. After Hours

    That one big gap during the 911 conversation was plenty enough to allow him to briefly intervene in the fight. Especially if the phone was cordless. You can hear him huffing and puffing. I can hit you with a bar stool in about 3 seconds … with one hand even.

  12. clearly

    Why are we not outraged Asheville? Have we seen too many bad cop movies? Can you hear the bouncer in the background calling for Malcolm? I think he calls his name 4 times. Here is a man coming to the defence of a co-worker and probably friend against someone who he doesn’t even believe to be who he says he is. And what about the police report? Is it not against the law to file a false report? Clearly the officer was not in the buisiness of writing a ticket when he was attacked as has been reported. I would like to know when this is going to trial. We should unite people; against the corruption within our “LAW” offices here in Asheville! Thank God for the 911 recording. This man (Malcolm) is being charged with assault with a deadly weapon. Malcolm, I would have done the same thing.

  13. William P Miller

    If these charges are found true, these two late night guzzlers will get significant prison time. As they should. I’ll bet my bottom dollar that these two are both yankee transplants.

  14. clearly

    Are you saying Mr Miller, that these two should get prison time because they are yankee transplants? You wouldn’t happen to be related to officer Miller would you? Maybe you and he share the same attitude about “transplants”. Look around sir, Asheville is made up of those you seem to loathe.

  15. I actually grew up here in Asheville with Mr. Plemmons, William. Would you care to make any other stupid statements?

  16. Peter Lorenz

    If you use the recording as an account of what was actually happening then you can gather Miller and Plemmons are grappling. Yelling and threats are audible. The phone call begins with a deep-voiced man, presumably Miller, threatening to pepper spray someone. I believe that is an example of the “not acting like a cop” Knighten was referring to. The loud screaming you hear in the background may be the result of the bite referenced in the police report or pepper spray.
    Around 1:20 min in you can here Knighten say:
    “Mikey, your just going to have to hang in there until the police get here dude” Followed by a plea from Plemmons for assistance at 1:50min.

    Again this sounds like evidence that counters the ALE’s unlikely Ambushed Officer scenario. That is my opinion.

    Well done MountainX.

  17. DonM

    LOKEL,
    Listen to the call again. As I previously pointed out, there was a period of time when Malcom was “absent” from his phone as the 911 operator repeatedly asked him questions. That would be when the bar-stool assault probably occurred.

  18. William:

    What the heck difference does it make if they are from Timbuktu, Guam, Iraq, or New Jersey?
    Assuming a person’s guilt based on their region of birth is as corrupt as assuming it based on their race and as absurd as assuming it based on their fashion sense.
    Get with the times – we’re all in this together.

  19. Peter Lorenz

    Travelah:
    Your plainly known facts are correct… save two.

    First:”police were called to investigate an assault upon a law officer.”
    The police had been called by the accused to *stop* a fight *involving* an officer.

    One of the main questions I have about this incident is: who it was initiated a physical conflict? Saying “An ALE officer was assaulted” may be an oversimplification. Is it not plausible that Miller escalated the conflict into violence? Do you remember the incident involving Deputy Brian Scarborough last year? If not please google it.
    I believe that these differences are worth noting.

  20. but what do i know?

    Travelah, the police were not called to investigate a police officer being assaulted. They were called to stop a supposed ALE agent (not the same as a police officer) from assaulting an employee. This much is clear from the audio. Now you’re simply confusing what you’ve read in the paper with what you actually just heard in a 911 call.
    Also, DonM, to state that all rstaurants and bars know their ALE agent is a random, uninformed generalization with no empirical basis whatsoever. And it is false. None of the employees there that evening had ever seen David Miller before in their lives. Furthermore, you are just making assumptions about what is going on when Malcolm isn’t talking.
    Willam P. Miller: Knighten and Plemmons are both Asheville natives.
    And to After Hours and DonM both, the piece of evidence in hand heavily substantiates that all parties involved have serious doubts as to whether or not Miller was actually a law enforcement officer. The reasons why this actually came into question will be revealed in court. In the meantime, please stop speculating on matters about which you obviously know very little.

  21. architorture

    “after hours inbibers” Thank The Lord for sending Saint Miller out to rescue us from these monsters of society. They’re like sharks stalking about in a locked building just waiting for the right moment to infringe on your freedoms and have the audacity to…have a beer.

    You really make them out to be chainsaw murderers. A beer after work to relax is seriously akin to jaywalking on the morality scale. Most 9 to 5-ers have a beer after work and don’t get slandered as the boogey-men.

    I know these Bier Garden criminal masterminds and, as noted, they really are some of the nicest people you will ever meet. I hoped this phone call would have put a new spin on things, but there are still some of you who can’t get the idea of a couple of bartenders having a Guinness after work out of your heads. Fine – it’s against the law. But it’s not a reason to label them as bad people.

    On that note, if you were speeding, got pulled over by someone claiming to be an officer with an untucked shirt, and alcohol on his breath, you might react defensively when he tried to put you in handcuffs while refusing to show you a badge.

  22. Peter Lorenz

    William P Miller:

    If the two accused had been drunk it would almost surely been recorded in the report.
    I know what closing a bar is like, it is more likely the remaining staff (not the “two unidentified employees and one patron” cited in the report) had been busy closing up shop. Meeting OSHA standards requires a bulk of nightly clean-up. Too busy to be drunk in my opinion. They aren’t the offending “late night guzzlers”.

    Regarding the Yankee thing. Longitude of birth, as I understand, rarely effects a individual’s violent tendencies. While I have no science to back up my speculation, you can rest assured I’m correct. Jeeze.

  23. “If these charges are found true, these two late night guzzlers will get significant prison time. As they should. I’ll bet my bottom dollar that these two are both yankee transplants.”

    Guess Medford was a transplant too.

  24. Jim Shura

    Don,

    I wouldn’t make the same assumption. I’m not friends with either of the people charged but we do know each other from all working out of the Haywood for the last 4-5 years and I don’t believe the story.

    You ever tried to call in something violent to 911? It’s really not that easy to keep the conversation going while a fight is happening in the same room.

    William,

    The few people I’ve had to throw out of my business because they’ve wandered in drunk and belligerent have ALL had accents that come from the former CSA. Until I saw your post, I’d never really thought about it. I would not waste too much time thinking that the south has any kind of lock on genteel behavior. I mean, David Duke is very polite and all…

  25. clearly

    I keep going back to the original story and marveling at the fairytale the ALE have woven. Was Alan Page not aware of the 911 call when he backed up “Officer” Miller’s fabrication? Clearly the whole story is not being told but when the truth does come to light ALE needs to be held responsible for the lies they have told.

  26. travelah

    Peter, you are correct. This matter will be laid out in court. My point is a calm man calling 911 means nothing until the facts of this case are laid out. If the ALE officer was in the wrong, then so be it. To be honest here, I cannot envision an ALE officer entering that bar alone with men drinking illegally and starting to assault them. Call me naive if you will, but it makes no sense to me and it would seem the APD agreed (not that this makes it ironclad by any measure).

  27. sure.

    Travelah, I agree with half of that sentence. I cannot envision an ALE officer entering that bar alone. Since when is it functionally possible for the ALE to roll in ONE MAN DEEP in a bar containing at least a decent handful of people and not calling for backup or something when things get harry?
    Let’s remember that the police never would have shown up if a biergarden employee hadn’t called them.
    Officer Miller made no attempt to call for backup or get anyone else involved in any way. Malcolm Kighten did. This looks shady on Miller’s end. I have to second Knighten’s suspicion that Miller was likely not sober and not on duty.

  28. Bahhhh

    I have to jump in and defend Miller. I have known him for many years and he has served this county/city in uniform for most of them. He is one of the most level headed individuals that I know. The speculation that you have stated above is just that….speculation.

    The facts will come out and until then my suggestion is to let it rest.

  29. DonM

    To all previous defenders of Malcom and Plemmons:
    you tell me that I don’t know what I’m talking about. I tell you the very same thing–you don’t either. You are spring-loaded to side against authority. That’s your problem–now and possibly in the past, probably for just cause. Your inability to even entertain the possibilities so readily apparent to even a lay person, speaks for itself. I suspect you’ve had run-ins with the law before and you’ve been on the wrong side and will probably experience them again. You’ll probably still not understand what happened to you.

    I’m just as eager to see the resolution of this fracas as you. I’ll bet that Malcom and Plemmons are going down–hard.

    How f-in’ stupid can they be. A bar manager does indeed know their ALE officer. If anyone thinks otherwise they’re utterly wrong. If you’re a bar manager and do not know your ALE officer, you’re not only wrong but stupid.

    DARWIN

  30. but what do i know?

    Okay look, DonM:
    I am telling you that you do not know. And your response is “you don’t either.” But I actually do know. I know the things I’ve said to be fact. You do not. You are completely speculating. See the difference?
    There is no “their ALE officer.” That isn’t even how it works. ALE officers aren’t assigned specific bars to look after. They also don’t make themsleves known until they feel like it.
    The Biergarden has never in its fifteen year history received a ticket from the ALE. Ever. So there isn’t any possible way they could ever know anyone to be anything as far as the ALE is concerned. The only ALE agent the Biergarden has ever encountered is the one that they invited to the bar for a Q&A;over two years ago.
    So stop trying to convince everyone of something that you yourself admit to be nonfactual.

  31. Jlaverd

    Why are we not more outraged?

    Listen, this is sketchy from square one: A single officer walks in to ticket someone at a bar, maybe the bar itself.

    Not ALE, not APD, no SWAT, no K9 unit is operates as a unit. They work in teams, partner teams, you know, Starsky AND Hutch. Not alone.
    What in pairs it’s a midnight round, alone, is harassment.

    Now, square two. The man is bellegerent and fails to identify himself. He might or might not be intoxicated. He uses his pepper spray BEFORE calling back up. He forfeits not only his cool but his respectable authority figure in the lobby there. Not very much standard police procedure, but hey, people were drinking inside!

    Brian Scarborough, and Anthony Abbate are two names you want to google and then repost here. I wish, by god I wish I have had a handy stool to stop Abbate.

    LISTEN:

    1. When people break the law, they become criminals.

    2. Officers, armed with pepper spray that fail to phisically dominate ONE bouncer during the whole time that Mr. Knighten was on the phone, fail to call for backup and fail to issue the ticket: fail performing police protocol and are undoubtedly intoxicated.

    Officers walking by themselves ticketing stablishments while intoxicated, are-breaking-the-law.

    Officers that attack before identifying themselves are-breaking-the-law.

    It is unlawful to enter a closed stablishment uninvited, unidentified, inebriated, and with the intent of making some extra hours in his cop time sheet.

  32. MONK

    I think given the previous statements as described above as to the parking-ticket esque penalties for drinking after hours… mixed with the idea that they had known their ALE officer – It makes no since why this fight would even have occurred if the ALE officer had not behaved in-appropriately to begin with combined with the fact they didn’t know him.
    An officer of the law, when in his right mind, should never say “Your about to get maced, for real dude!!” Unless of course the officer were Keanu Reeves, and it was written in the script.
    Perhaps next we can start theorizing that the Biergarden made the 911 call after they were done beating the officer, performing a quick re-enactment, with everyone gathered around using funny voices! Did I see this on Law and Order? Use your head people.
    Why should a man go to jail for defending himself or someone else (employee or patron) while on the phone with a 911 operator whom he called to begin with? Just because your supposedly on the right side of the law does not make you right. If you put yourself in Malcolm’s place, would you ever have thought once dialing 911 you would eventually be the one to go to jail? This is clearly some kind of self defense.
    DAR-LOSS

  33. William P Miller

    Clearly said: “Are you saying Mr Miller, that these two should get prison time because they are yankee transplants? You wouldn’t happen to be related to officer Miller would you? Maybe you and he share the same attitude about “transplants”. Look around sir, Asheville is made up of those you seem to loathe.”

    No officer Miller isn’t related, as far as I know. Although my father was known as a lady’s man. :) I do not loathe yankee transplants. But their cultural differences do stick out here in Asheville. Like this assault on a law enforcement officer. Besides, locals are in bed at that hour. Sounds like a New York thing to be drinking in a bar after 2:30am.

    If they are found guilty of assault with a deadly weapon, then of course they will do jail time. Their being yankee has nothing to do with that. You break the law you go to jail, here in North Carolina. Resisting and assault on an officer is a serious offense. And I hope ALE closes that place down.

  34. William P Miller

    JBo said: “What the heck difference does it make if they are from Timbuktu, Guam, Iraq, or New Jersey?
    Assuming a person’s guilt based on their region of birth is as corrupt as assuming it based on their race and as absurd as assuming it based on their fashion sense.
    Get with the times – we’re all in this together.”

    JBO, perhaps my post wasn’t clearly written. I do not find them guilty just because they may be transplants from up north. My point is that IF they are found guilty, they will and they should do prison time. The remark about yankee transplants refers to the cultural differences between locals and those who move here from up north. For one thing, most locals are in bed that time of night resting up for the next day’s work. Bar flyism is more of a big city northern thing.

  35. William P Miller

    Peter, sorry bub, but the police report holds more weight than your experience with bar closing time. They need not be drunk to be sited for drinking after hours. Just in the process of drinking alcohol.

  36. DonM

    Peter,
    i’m not sure what you meant when you said “…Regarding the Yankee thing. Longitude of birth, as I understand, rarely effects a individual’s violent tendencies. While I have no science to back up my speculation, you can rest assured I’m correct. Jeeze.”

    Longitude is an east/west thing. Latitude is the north/south thing. I, too, don’t know about any science about it, just empirical evidence and a mighty fine Jimmy Buffett song that addresses it.

    “Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes”

  37. jen

    it would take me all day to read previous posts..but i without seeing anything happen first hand i wouldn’t side with either parties.

  38. Peter Lorenz

    DonM:
    Yeah, thats right, it was latitude I was referring to. But that is semantic isn’t it. The point is, a persons birth place doesn’t define them in any way other than it being their birthplace.
    Being born in Fargo will not make you more violent that being born in Savannah. That is completely foolish. In related news, both of the accused are natives of the area. And, by the way, you just backed up your opinion with a Jimmy Buffet song.

    Also, I’m not a criminal just because I am defending someone on the wrong side of the official report.

    “I suspect you’ve had run-ins with the law before and you’ve been on the wrong side and will probably experience them again.”

    What makes you think this is in any way reasonable? I suspect this is logic flawed logic. I’m no more a criminal than you are a cannibal.

    William P. Miller:

    The police report states simply that Officer miller was attacked while issuing tickets. Remember that what is written on that document is exactly what Officer Miller wanted written. That is pretty much it. The report’s dishonest oversimplification combined with an information blackout on the defendants side has made for a very one-sided view of the events. I obviously have numerous stated doubts regarding the validity of the official story. Hence my admittedly opinionated posts.
    Also, the phrase “late night guzzlers” implies that the accused had been drinking. I am not saying that people at the bar hadn’t been drinking. I’m saying Plemmons and Knighten hadn’t been. They where not drunk. Miller however, smelled like alcohol according to the staff who actually witnessed the event.
    You can choose to accept the official story and that is fine. But IMO that equates to blind faith in the report. A report that is nothing more than the unlikely account of a angry belligerent man who wants his revenge.

  39. Trey

    They should have dragged his sorry ass OUT of the bar and given him a REAL beatdown.

    Another typical “never got laid in high school” loser turned cop….. gets drunk and tries to act big.

  40. travelah

    Trey, that attitude is why we regulate alchohol in every state.

  41. DonM

    To “but what do i know?” :
    The answer is “not what you think you do.” I suggest you wait and see how this turns out. Then we’ll see what you think you know and what I think I know. Fair enough?

    And I promise not to gloat. I don’t do that as I’m well practiced at restraint in these matters.

  42. but what do i know?

    Dearest DonM:
    Thank you so much for your unwavering compassion in this time of great crisis. Your preternatural understanding of the law coupled with your seeming ability to read minds and forsee the future outcome of a legal battle in which you aren’t even involved put you at quite an advantage.
    That having been said, thank you for not gloating. Your restraint is duly noted and well appreciated.
    Furthermore, I am thoroughly amazed that someone of your heightened sense of intellect, presence of mind, and superior logic has the time to deal with underlings such as myself when not handing out Darwin Awards.
    Again, Thank You for remaining vigilent and good and true and right. Always.
    Yours subordinately,
    The Man Who Only THINKS He Knows What He Saw With His Own Eyes.

  43. L8rsooner

    Having a beer after hours is something that happens in many places, yet the doors should of been locked. It is against the law to serve, whether bought or not, what happened here I will wait and see the outcome however for many other places that having a drink after work happens, take note to lock the door and close the blinds!
    As for knowing your ALE agent, that is a crock! ALE agents are rotated on a regular basis and when they are trying to conduct stings they bring in agents from other areas of the state, no bar is going to violate any alcohol law when a known agent is present, as for people being violent or passive I know people from Maine to southern California that are one or the other. If you can judge how a person is by where they are from then I guess we can call you Bruce Almighty. This tape gives no definate answers, just a little more info to what happened, I can only hope in court justice will come to those who deserve to be punished. Some ALE officers in my experience tend to abuse the power they have, my experiences were many years ago, but in any Law Enfforcement you will have those who protect us and those who abuse their power. In defense of the ALE I have never seen them ever not identify themselves when doing a bust, I have always seen a badge and ID displayed, if this guy didn’t at the time he was to issue a citation then I believe that is not proper procedure.

  44. OH COME ON

    I have read all the comments and both news pieces here at MountainXpress and I would like to say first of all, Thank you MountainXpress for the excellent and fair coverage. It goes to show you can’t always believe what you see on the surface. It seems that we have a clearly devided line here. There are those of you (us) that are identifying with the bier garden manager. If put in his position we could see ourselves doing the same thing he did. And then there are those who think they would just stand by and watch as a friend was being maced, because the law is the law. Right WILLIAM P MILLER? Yes, tis true but when those who are supposed to enforce it, break it, who can you trust? As SURE points out it was Malcolm Knighten who called to report the fight. As MONK points out the officer was behaving inappropriately. As CLEARLY points out Page’s remarks seem to indicate a fabricated scenario and cover-up. And if JLAVERD’s assessment of Miller is true and we imagine ourselves in the situation proposed by ARCHITOTURE (being pulled over by a cop with an untucked shirt and alcohol on his breath), Then we should be outraged as CLEARLY and JLAVERD suggested. As to DONM we are not defenders spring losded to side against authority. I have never had a run in with the law and I don’t even frequent bars. If Knighten and Plemmons “go down hard” for this then we realize any of us could end up in prison based on the lies of those we pay to defend us. Whether we like it or not bad cops do exist and some let the power of their position go to their heads. I’m wondering why he (ALE officer Miller) still has a job. If Knighten and Plemmons “go down hard” I for one plan on making some noise about it.

  45. William P Miller

    Don M said: “Longitude is an east/west thing. Latitude is the north/south thing. I, too, don’t know about any science about it, just empirical evidence and a mighty fine Jimmy Buffett song that addresses it.

    “Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes” ”

    Love Jimmy Buffet, a Southern boy. And he is so right. Go Latitudinally north to NJ, NY, MA, CT and you find most folks are in too big a hurry, are too serious, are alienated from their fellow man, and have an attitude in general. Of course there are exceptions, but that’s the culture up there. Now, just drop below the old Mason-Dixon line, and you find the opposite, which proves Jimmy Buffet right. If you want friendly people, change your latitude South…your attitude will change as a result.

    Trey, you are the loser, as evidenced by your above remarks. The officer wasn’t “drunk” according to the police report. The officer was writing a ticket for after hours drinking violations when those that actually were drinking attacked him. The APD report is the gold standard here, not “never got laid in high school” guys like you.

  46. david

    “I actually grew up here in Asheville with Mr. Plemmons, William. Would you care to make any other stupid statements?”–j bugg

    “I do not loathe yankee transplants. But their cultural differences do stick out here in Asheville. Like this assault on a law enforcement officer. Besides, locals are in bed at that hour. Sounds like a New York thing to be drinking in a bar after 2:30am.”-nam vet

    Hmm, mr billy p, did you not read jason’s post, or did you set out to make an idiotic statement that was already proven false? If so, then Kudos.

  47. clearly

    The key words here are “according to the police report”. The 911 call already proves the “gold standard” police report is full of lies.

  48. C

    Has this whole conversation really devolved into a north/south or name-calling spat? Focus, people.
    Here is something I am curious about:
    If Miller is the subject of an inquiry or investigation, I would assume he is presently suspended. Is that the case?

  49. Jason Bugg

    And just think, my comments are moderated and these two rocket scientists are pumping out homophobic screeds? Brilliant, bumpkins.

  50. Peter Lorenz

    William P. Miller:
    “The officer was writing a ticket for after hours drinking violations when those that actually were drinking attacked him.”
    As indicated on the Xpress report: “There were no problems, they knew what they [the after hour drinkers, not the supposed assailants] were doing was illegal. They were pouring out their drinks and he [Miller] was getting ready to write a ticket and let them go.”
    The report then asserts that Miller was attacked after a brief but heated verbal exchange. You have repeatedly claimed the accused had been drinking. Where are you getting this insightful information? The Xpress article, which references the police report, makes no mention of Knighten or Plemmons being drunk or even consuming alcohol.
    Also, speaking as an Asheville native, I find your stereotyping of American culture equally as offensive as Donm’s claim that we who doubt the validity of the ALE story do so not out of experience and reason but as a result of our criminal upbringings and legally dubious past.

    Trey:
    Whoa man.

  51. William P Miller

    Clearly said: “The key words here are “according to the police report”. The 911 call already proves the “gold standard” police report is full of lies.”

    Nothing is proven by a tape of the 911 call. The APD is a professional organization. Their report, from initial scene investigation, is what is the gold standard…for now. In court, if it is proven incorrect, then so be it. But I doubt it. Armchair quaterbacking by former friends of the suspects and former bar workers not withstanding.

    C said: “If Miller is the subject of an inquiry or investigation, I would assume he is presently suspended. Is that the case?”

    I can see how you would get confused by some of the reader comments and think the ALE officer is the perp here. But he isn’t. He wasn’t charged with anything by APD officers at the scene. Since he is not under suspicion, he is not suspended. If you lok at the article, his supervisor defends him and says he may sanction the Bier Garden.

  52. William P Miller

    Peter Lorenz said: “I find your stereotyping of American culture equally as offensive as Donm’s claim that we who doubt the validity of the ALE story do so not out of experience and reason but as a result of our criminal upbringings and legally dubious past.”

    Stereotypes do have validity. Of course they are a broad brush and one should be careful to not pre-judge people. But, I find that when and if a stereotype is confirmed, I am not surprised. People who were born and raised in the NY, NJ, MA, and CT tend to fit a stereotype, exceptions of course. This is my experience, both as an Asheville native mingling with transplants from those states, and as a person who has repeatedly visited those areas. In NYC, it is rare to see anyone on the street smile. If you say hello, they either ignore you completely, or look at you as if to say “what’s your problem”. People in those 4 states of the NE are always in a hurry and value time much more than human interactions. Because they are always in a hurry, people from those areas tend to be impatient, rude and abrupt. And arrogant because they feel their region is superior to the rest of the country, especially the South. Because they have for many years perpetuated a stereotype that Southerners are ignorant, redneck, racists who need a yankee to show them how to do things right. When these people move here and hang onto their cultural conditioning, they stick out like a sore thumb. And they are an irritant to those of us who are natives.

    So yankee transplants, please keep your cultural conditioning to yourselves, keep quiet, and listen and observe how natives do things here. Hopefully you will learn that folks here smile and say good morning to strangers. We chat about the weather and the price of gas when filling up at gas stations. We are neighborly. We honor our military. We honor God and go to church on Sunday. We honor our families. Several of my yankee friends have done this and have mellowed and fit in here now. You even occasionally get a “y’all” out of them. -:)

  53. DonM

    Jason,
    You said “And just think, my comments are moderated and these two rocket scientists are pumping out homophobic screeds? Brilliant, bumpkins.”

    I don’t know about any of your posts being moderated but I can assure you I’m far from a homophobe. I don’t know how you arrived at that brilliant conclusion.

    I merely responded to an ad hominem attack in-kind and in a manner that would be clearly understood by Trey. That was wrong and I apologize to the board for that.

    As for the rest, as others and I have previously stated, no one knows the full accounting of that evening’s (or morning’s) events. That includes someone who said they were there. Five people can view the same event and be 100 percent convinced that they KNOW what they saw. But when questioned separately, five different stories can appear.

    So, again, to continue speculating is indeed nothing more than emotional and wishful thinking on all our parts.

    We’ll all see the outcome soon enough. I think the majority here will be dissapointed in that outcome and will continue to carp about it. My opinion. I can’t change your opinion nor can you change mine. But I will accept the outcome whatever it is and for what it is.

    Will you?

  54. donny

    DonM_I’m pretty sure JBugg refering to willy p and travelah, there big guy. Calm down.

    My opinion of this mess? It sounds fishy and one-sided.

  55. DonM

    Perhaps, donny, but as I was “moderated” I took Jason to be referring to me. My first “bounce” ever froma forum. How ’bout that! Have a great day, I’m off to sample the city.

  56. September Girl

    Thanks for posting this, MountainX and please stay on top of this story. The “official” story makes no sense to me and I’d hate to see a couple of hard working people pay for someone else’s mistake.

  57. William P Miller

    LOL, isn’t most everyone a Buffet fan? Donm, just kiss the blarney stone for a few weeks and they will let you come back real time.

  58. C

    Regarding WPM’s Northeast rant: I don’t recall slipping under a fence on my way down here. Y’all might want to see to it that the CSA gets on that.

  59. strange

    Was the ALE officer Breathalized? Do they test their own. If he was drunk he shouldn’t be doing police work. I work at a bar, and I know who my ALE officers are. I have seen them out drinking socialy on nights that they are off.

    Power corrupts. We don’t need an A.L.E. anymore. We don’t need “Members only” laws at bars.

    If the cop was drunk, the cop should be fired

  60. architorture

    William: “I do not loathe yankee transplants. But their cultural differences do stick out here in Asheville. Like this assault on a law enforcement officer. Besides, locals are in bed at that hour.”

    This is a bit of a ridiculous argument. While probably loathsome for your tastes, they weren’t at the bar drinking. They just got done WORKING! They probably didn’t get finished until just before the agent arrived. Which means, by your standards, all the patrons of the bar that evening, all the employees of the bar, and everyone else in the city out around that hour or even at closing time, INCLUDING Agent Miller, are tourist, yankee heathens because they weren’t tucked in by 10:00pm. (And before you say “Agent Miller was working,” the record shows the incident happening just after 3:00am. I can guarantee the employees barely finished their clean-up before pouring themselves an after-work beer.)

    One more argument that needs to be settled – I have worked in four different downtown restaurants as manager, server, and bartender since 2000. I have never met an ALE agent. They have not gone out of their way to introduce themselves and, on the few occasions they might have shown up, it’s usually just a buzz amongst the staff that a customer might be acting like an agent. They DO NOT make themselves known until they’re ready to write some tickets.

  61. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    1.
    It is erroneous to say the A.L.E.agent is a police officer. He is not, as he does not have, nor holds, any Public office, created by the state legislature, he also has no civil commission, therefore is not a public servant.

    The agent has no 10th amendment police powers and is in fact, an employee of a corporation, with an F.I.E.N. taxpayer number.

    In short, he is a revenue extortion thug/ agent for THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLNA, a corporation in and of it’s self, listed on Dun and Bradstreet and domiciled in Washington D.C.

    Of course, no lawyer will bring this up in exculpatory discovery, as lawyers themselves, are BAR card agents and employees of THIS STATE and can only represent corporations; they are also and in bed with law enforcement and have non-attribution agreements with quazi police agencies IT’S A MONEY RACQUET PROTECTION THING YOU KNOW

    2.
    It ostensibly appears, that the thug/ Nazi revenue agent, failed to identify himself to the manger, if he was asked and failed to produce I.D., this is a blatant violation of law.

    3.
    Immediate affidavits need to be gathered and filed, by all the witnesses and injured parties concerned, among both the patrons and employees involved, they need to be filed into the county recorders office as federal evidence under the rules of Federal evidence 901 and 902 and then, filed into the case file, so they are not file stripped and tampered with, as frequently happens in the U.S. legal system, the greatest legal cess pool on the face of the earth.
    4.
    A.L.E. agents actually have more in common with I.R.S. agents and BATF agents, then they do with any other agencies. Keep in mind the jurisdiction the agent has, is based not in common law but administrate law, as the Bier Garden is licensed by the corporate state; and therefore is subject to revenue extortion, by the states administrative agencies, who have no legal nexus to the constitution, nor do agencies have inherent constitutional power in and of themselves.

    Incidentally, the word revenue means re –venue, off the land and republic, an into a venue of corporate legal fictions.
    5.
    The Bier Garden needs to understand, going into a STATE kangaroo North Carolina court, with Bar Card attorneys, judges and D.A’s, who are all agents of the State, is a complete exercise in futility, no Justice is found in any of these cess pools/ courts, especially, as the A.L E. probably has numbers of cooperative agreements/ contracts with the District Criminal Court of BUNCOMBE COUNTY, which is a mere corporation.

    Since no State licensed Bar card, lying, thieving, attorney, will ever ask for the cooperative agreements and contracts on a Subpoena Duces Tecum, the best option here is to place a claim directly on the A.L.E. and its Nazi revenue agent, with state risk management department in Raleigh, showing the agent’s violation of the administrate and statutory guidelines on his scope, and jurisdiction of power and his alleged authority,as well as a claim on his public bond, though I doubt he even has one. He also needs to be sued in his private personal capacity for acting outside the Law.

    Disclaimer I am not an Attorney, this is not legal advise, I don’t practice law as I know what the hell I’m doing.
    This is not meant as legal advice to pieces of state and federal owned property called U.S. “citizens:, who have given up all unalienable rights by receiving benefits and by choosing the political status of U,S, citizens, who are legal fiction in law, created April,4 1866.
    U.S. citizens are “persons” in law I.E. corporations and have no rights, as they have volunteered into slavery by receiving corporate government benefits as federal personal as listed in 5 U.S.C. 552 (a).
    In short, they are in a cage and are too dumb to know it

  62. William P Miller

    Dr anti…whatever. ALE agents are law enforcement officers. He was in the process of writing a ticket for a violation of the law when he was attacked. If you spent as much time on positive pursuits, as you spend here trolling up, you’d accomplish a lot more in life. The sun is out. It’s a nice day. Get out in the sunshine and enjoy God’s green mountains here. It’ll put a whole new spin on your life outlook. And you haven a good one!

  63. travelah

    And just think, my comments are moderated and these two rocket scientists are pumping out homophobic screeds? Brilliant, bumpkins.

    Who is pumping out homophobic screeds and what makes them rocket scsientists (since somebody is suggesting I am one of them). An inquiring mind wants to know.

  64. hey miller

    just so you know, the reports of david mille bieng in the process of issuing tickets are completely false.
    in actuality, he did not have a ticket book in his possession when he entered the bar. when the scuffle was over and knighten and plemmons had been arrested, he had to take the remaining bar employees out to his car and issue tickets because that’s where his ticket book was–in his car. along with the radio he should have used to call for backup but didn’t, because he wasn’t on duty.

  65. and also

    In Reference to Agent Miller being breathalized:

    When the APD arrived at the Biergarden, Knighten let them in the building, led them into the bar, pointed directly to Agent Miller and said:

    “Can you breathalize this man?”

    It was the first request anyone made to the officers as soon as they arrived. Miller, however, was not breathalized.

    Knighten also asked if he himself could be breathalized. This request, too, was denied.

  66. William P Miller

    hey miller, I will go with the official police report until other evidence surfaces. Period. Miller’s supervisor backed him, and that says a lot too. So these armchair quarterback comments, like yours, mean nothing.

  67. alright dude

    If you want to see the evidence, there is plenty of it to refute the report. Just show up for the trial.

  68. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Attention all legal ignorant U.S. citizens on this blog.
    Citations can not be used as evidence in court as they are not signed under penalties of perjury by the compliant, nor is the officer” on the uniform citations listed as the complainant, even if he was, there is no Jurat oath on the affidavit of probable cause required by the 4th amendment

    Police reports unless read under oath by the officer mean nothing and may be objected to.D.A’s cannot lawfully read them into the record even under the concept of “Parole evidence”

    Officers/ agents, are members of the executive branch, and can summons no one to court, as only a judicial official may do that.

    Forcing some one to take a breathalyzer test is a violation of the 5 the amendment and is unlawful.
    Assaulting those who refuse to comply after they invoke and notice the thugs of their rights, has been addressed by the Supreme court in Miller Vs U.S paraphrased The asserting a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.
    SO MANY IGNORANT OF THE LAW

  69. Peter Lorenz

    You mean Officer Miller’s boss, the man who is responsible for the actions of his subordinates, backed him? Your kidding.

  70. William P Miller

    Peter, read the news reports for yourself. That is plainly there, that his supervisor not only supports Miller (I like his last name) but is considering sanctions for the Bier Garden. Yankee customs don’t wash here. We don’t allow bar flies to drink at 2:30am.

    Dr Anti…whatever. This is the South. We do real law and order here, not the yankee version of assuming the perp is in the right then bringing in the ACLU to sandbag justice. Down here, ACLU stands for “American Communists Liberals Union”.

  71. DR.ANTINEOCONUS

    Miller your a Moron
    Im for ejecting all yankee Federal insurgeants out of the “Several states” you twit
    Lincoln the tratior created the monster from Washington that now has destroyed all states rights and occupies the republic of North Carolina.
    Lay off the country music and your gene pool might improve

  72. Johnson

    Damn, I see Ashevillians still hate each other, nice to see that some things don’t change

  73. Trey

    Bier Garden lost their liquor license on Tues.

    This is nothing more than a shakedown.

    At least the government can teach us all a little something about how to be a criminal.

    HEY WILLIAM P MILLER…. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF SARCASM????

    LOOK IT UP….. GOOGLE IT…..

    OH YEAH…… THEY DON”T ALLOW THAT IN THE SOUTH EITHER!!!

  74. Peter Lorenz

    “Please keep your comments relevant to blog entry.”
    William P Miller’s hatred of those above the Mason-Dixon line and apparent continuation of the civil war has little to do with this article.

    Also, yes I’ve read the report. My previous post was sarcasm. His boss backing him is little more than the knee-jerk reaction of a recoiling snake.
    We are not assuming “the perp is right”. We have evaluated the situation making logical conclusions. Conclusions based on eye witness accounts and reason rather than the police report, which is unlikely, one sided and most importantly completely absurd.
    How could Miller have been trying to issue tickets to the drinkers when he was attacked if the tickets had been in his car the whole time? So much of his story doesn’t line up. It smells fishy.

  75. Enough of this…

    As a native Tennessean, I have a greater authority to talk about all things Southern. And as a Southerner, methinks this whole thing smells fishy, but it’s too early to tell.

    Some people have a rosy-goggled view of the South. They tend to forget the thousands of hole in the wall dives, VFW posts and American Legions that are usually right outside the city limits of any decent sized town. At the brown-bag places especially, the party can go all night until church the next day.

  76. John

    I have twenty years in the bar business in NC. What he should have done is just offer the ALE officer a bribe. It will work every time. ALE is a corrupt good ole boy network government agency that should have been gone years ago.

  77. William P Miller

    What the bar manager should have done was allow officer Miller to do his job and accept the ticket, and realize he got caught. If you cannot do the “time”, then do not do ther crime. Blaming the person who was just doing his job is just plain lame. ABC has suspended the Bier Garden’s alcohol license for several days. A fair statement to make, I believe.

  78. interesting theory

    But it has no factual basis whatsoever. In truth, there were no tickets being issued. This has been stated already. The only thing Miller was handing out was his own brand of violent intoxicated justice, and what happened thereafter was self-defense. Stop playing games.

  79. Stephen Lorenz

    John – since “officer” Miller was already drunk when he came into the biergarden perhaps he had already accepted a bribe from a different bar that night.

    William P. Miller – Its kind of hard to write a ticket when your drunk……or macing people. Its clear that no tickets were being written. You need to get your information from more then just the police reports.
    O yea, one more thing,
    you wrote “So yankee transplants, please keep your cultural conditioning to yourselves, keep quiet, and listen and observe how natives do things here. Hopefully you will learn that folks here smile and say good morning to strangers. We chat about the weather and the price of gas when filling up at gas stations. We are neighborly. We honor our military. We honor God and go to church on Sunday. We honor our families. Several of my yankee friends have done this and have mellowed and fit in here now. You even occasionally get a “y’all” out of them. -:)”
    I think you forgot to add “we burn the innocent.” (seems to be what your aiming for)
    And your ruthless bludgeoning of Malcolm Knighten and Michael Plemmons certainly isn’t neighborly.

  80. William P Miller

    ‘interesting’, this is only your opinion, not based in fact. The APD report and the ABC Board actions are the gold standard here. Your protestations are just conjecture. Officer Miller was doing his job, but was stopped from writing tickets and assaulted by the perps who were arrested. Like it or not, those are the facts. Officer Miller was not the intoxicated one, it was the manager of Bier Garden and his bouncer. Those are the facts. Love them or leave them. -:)

  81. Stephen Lorenz

    Those are not facts William P Miller.
    If by attacking the staff that are having a drink after hours is his job then he certainly was doing his job.

    “Officer” Miller admitted to having some drinks. There are witnesses that can attest to that.

  82. Peter Lorenz

    Not a single one of you supposed facts are corrcet.
    Officer Miller was not writing tickets. He was shouting. After the arrest he had to go out to his car to get the tickets and other tools of the trade. That happened after the fight and the 911 call.
    Miller, according to his own words had “had a couple sips”, unlike Knighten, who was likely the only sober person at the event.
    Your “gold standard” is subject to the same criticism as any other testimony, writin or spoken. It will not be taken at face value.
    Like usual. Your wrong. Very very wrong.

  83. david

    willy miller sure sounds like a cop who wont admit to being a cop. maybe an ex-cop.

  84. Tom Johnson

    Just some opinions from someone with 20 years experience in the restaurant business.

    1.ALE agents sometimes work alone
    2.Restaurants can get different agents every visit.
    3.From my meetings with him, Malcolm seems like a calm, peaceful individual with a lot of experience dealing with intoxicted people.
    4. Officer Miller has a reputation of coming into the working areas of bars without announcing himself.
    5. The manager of a bar is usually too busy to drink while closing.
    6. If Officer Miller had had anything at all to drink, should he be acting in an official capacity?

  85. no he shouldn't

    ABC Rules Subchapter 2R
    Organizational Rules Policies and Procedures
    consumption of alcoholic beverages
    04 NCAC 02R.1003

  86. William P Miller

    Peter, the APD police report is the official record, for now. Your assertions are based on hearsay and conjecture. The perps you defend are in jnail. That says a lot. Officer Miller is still on the job. Bless him for doing his job.

  87. Stephen Lorenz

    Actually I am looking at one of the “perps” right now. He is making pasta in the apartment’s kitchen.

  88. Peter Lorenz

    The “perps” are not in jnail. They are at work.
    My hearsay is well researched. Calling it “hearsay” implies insincerity. Those I’ve spoken with are quite sincere. Nothing I’ve written is conjecture. I do my homework before I speak up, always have, always will. I have not made conjured any statements from some drug-infused anarchy den. I have related information that makes sense and is valid. Unlike yourself, who would rather blame this madness on Italian Americans and New Yorkers, then cry out for facts in a story completely lacking them.
    You say the police report is the official record of the event. That is true. However, that doesn’t mean it is a document reflecting the exact course of events as they occurred. The report is the written account based on Miller’s perspective, and his alone. We all know that there are at least two sides to every argument. I know the report, as I said, I do my homework. Its obviously the work of a very upset man. It isn’t at all unlikely that in pursuit of his self interest Officer Miller would and has fudged or “forgotten” details that may be self incriminating. Why would an Officer do such a thing? Because, he can. Moreover, because he would avoid a great deal of disciplinary retribution. Miller didn’t behave like an officer of the law. Whitenesses and video will attest to that. And whitenesses and video are all there is to this case. The report is of little relative value.

  89. Peter Lorenz

    Tom:
    An ALE officer is allowed to drink alcoholic beverages while on duty as an undercover agent. Having a man at your bar, who doesn’t drink but does watch you like a hawk is a red flag to most restaurant employees. So officers do sometimes drink. They can not drink much and they certainly can’t be drunk.
    Maybe your question should be “Was Agent Miller undercover when he pushed his way into the bar?” And “How much had he been drinking?” Or “Where was his professional patience? Is he prone to losing his temper?” and “Why didn’t he bring his radio or ticket book into the bar he was ticketing?” Maybe even: “How often does he do this?” According to the news, twice in 4 years.

  90. William P Miller

    Peter, it is still your opinion. The law has spoken and taken the side of Officer Miller. Period.

  91. IkeyBear

    Hey Malcolm, if you get a chance to read this, this is Isaac. We went to high school together. I hope things work out for you in this situation. It sounds to me like that officer was a little out of line, to say the least.

    Take it easy man.

  92. travelah

    Peter,
    what are the exact course of events of the incident? Wha?? You do not know?

  93. no sir

    Mr. Miller. It is the opinion of the defense. Not just Peters.

    And the law spoke before they knew the facts, check back later and we will see.

  94. William P Miller

    No sir, I have stated above that for the time being, the APD report is the gold standard. If other evidence surfaces at the trial of the two Bier Garden employees, then we will re-discuss it then. The opinions about officer Miller being the bad guy here are simply opinion.

  95. September Girl

    Miller, a police report is no gold standard. A gold standard means that the paper (report) is backed by gold (hard evidence, in this case) I have nothing against the APD and I personally believe they should be the agency charged with enforcing liquor laws in Asheville instead of some obscure agency with a cute acronym for a name. I’ve never had a problem with the APD. The ones I have met readily identify themselves, speak rationally and seem well-trained and fair-minded. Still we are talking about human beings, not infallible demi-gods. My contact with the ALE agent has ALWAYS left a negative impression and the more I read, watch the news and talk to other people in the community, the more I am convinced that the facts of this story are not accurately reflected in the APD report.

  96. William P Miller

    September girl, ‘gold standard’ is just a figure of speech. The APD report is the record for the time being. When the two employees go to trial, we’ll see if it can be challenged. The APD officers are professionals and know how to investigate a crime scene. Armchair anarchists on this blog do not.

    By the way. You are lucky the liquor laws have changed here. That is if you like to imbibe now and then. In the past, NO establishment could serve hard liquor drinks. Asheville had a few 3.2 beer bars where you could order Pabst Blue Ribbon or Inglenook wine (yuck). The ABC store hours were 8:00am to 5:00 pm Monday through Thursday. Until 6:00pm on Friday, and closed on Saturday. It was hard to find booze around here then. And Madison County, and several surrounding counties, were completely dry. Asheville has changed into a yankee big city-esque place concerning bars and restaurants. Hence the Beer Garden being open til 2:00am on a week night. If I was calling the shots, all bars would be closed at midnight, and liquor licenses would be hard to come by. Aside: This is one way to get yankee transplants to go back home. -:) Oh…and I mean that as a JOKE.

  97. September Girl

    Thanks Miller, I get the figure of speech thing – that’s why I included the parenthetical associations. Gold standard implies a 100% degree of reliability and since the APD didn’t witness the begining or middle of the incident AND they are part of the brotherhood of law enforcement, I would not consider their report of this episode the “gold standard” Yes, we are lucky that our nation and laws have progressed in a number of ways, moving us closer to “liberty and justice for all”. It is no business of any government to tell me when I can drink, whom I can marry, etc. For that matter, let’s decriminalize all recreational drugs so that law enforcement can deal with real crime. BTW – I’m a transplant, but from the deep south. I come from a melting pot of a city and pretty much consider all of us human beings first and Americans right after that.

  98. William P Miller

    September Girl, I like you. But we do need a few laws governing behavior, for the common good. I think cutting off boozing at 2:00am is a reasonable law. The APD is actually here to protect us. And I am glad you are a transplant from the Deep South. I hope you are not considering the middle and southern part of Florida as “deep south”. -:) But whatever. Happy to discuss the issues with you.

  99. “If I was calling the shots, all bars would be closed at midnight, and liquor licenses would be hard to come by.”

    Being more Southern than Mr. Miller, if I was calling the shots I would let them stay open all night. Southerners love to party.

  100. September Girl

    I’m with you Orbit. Where I come from, bars never close and people seem happy and well adjusted. I’d be proud to call Florida home and spent many memorable times in that beautiful state. It is historic and full of natural resources (the ones we haven’t drained and paved). The people are kind and resilient, so I’m not sure why we wouldn’t want to claim it as Southerners.

  101. travelah

    Well, I’d have them close at 4am otherwise some kids would never see their daddies.

  102. Peter Lorenz

    As I recall, northern states have similar or more restrictive bar hours than do southern ones. Massachusetts and Maine: 1am. Tennessee: 3am. Good old NC: 2am. Louisiana doesn’t even really have one.
    Minnesota, Arizona and Nebraska have relatively recently extended their respective “last call hours” citing economic value and safety as their rationals. Actually, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration indicated more Alcohol related problems, primarily drunk driving, occur in states with earlier last calls like 1am and 12am. I admit, opposing and supportive statistics are widely available. Such is the nature of these kinds of debates. Both sides have infinite ammunition produced by special interest groups.
    I think Asheville could gain much from such a change. Many cities have adopted drinking hours that differ from their state’s recommendation. City revenue from alcoholic beverage sales and retail is extraordinary. We have a tourism based economy, the city would make more money as long as the people in charge are being responsible. Service industry workers, state officials and consumers; it takes the whole community to make it work. That makes sense to me.
    I’m fine with 2am. It doesn’t affect me. I’m rarely drink at bars at all and when I am, I’m usually sleepy by midnight. But I can see the value of later hours.

  103. September Girl

    Bad daddies (or mommies for that matter) aren’t bad because of bar hours. That’s just silly talk. Personal responsibility comes from good parenting, good education, good opportunities, all the promises of our great nation – not from a police state.

  104. William P Miller

    Orbit says “Being more Southern than Mr. Miller, if I was calling the shots I would let them stay open all night. Southerners love to party.”

    LOL, not the Southerners I know. maybe the 20 year olds that loiter on North Lexington, and rave all night at “clubs”, but not adults.

    September girl, have some common sense laws do not a police state make. If you want police state, take a visit to Cuba some time. If you voice an opinion about what they do there, you land in jail. That is a real police state. -:)

  105. david

    Dont start being logical, Sept. Girl!!

    Willy P and travelah, et al. think that being a social libertarian means having a strong government and law enforcement that can dictate what others do!

  106. September Girl

    Yeah, Cuba is pretty scary. Especially if your name is Muhammad and you’re stuck in GTMO with no due process. Erosion of liberty is slippery slope and Cuba is a great example on many levels. A police state can be left or right wing, communist or fascist. Back to the topic, I just see NO reason for NC to have an independent agency to enforce laws that any APD officer/sheriff’s deputy can enforce.

  107. William P Miller

    Actually, Cuba is very scary for any Amewrican Gen-xer who is used to being able to speak freely. Honey, if yhou speak your mind there, that Far Left Dictatorship will shut you up. For real. Gitmo is a US military prison and is not associated with Cuba.

  108. ANYWAY.....

    this has nothing to do with cuba or with gitmo. september girl stated that the system we have here isn’t perfect and your response (miller) was that she should visit cuba where it’s ten times worse. (?) relevance? it still sucks here!!!
    you’ve still got a rogue government agency harassing people who aren’t breaking any laws that aren’t already enforced by the APD. the ALE is completely superfluous and obselete. the only reason they exist is so that the state can continue to run a monopoly on liquor.

  109. travelah

    …travelah, et al. think that being a social libertarian means having a strong government and law enforcement that can dictate what others do!

    That is idiotic nonsense. I know having a strong government is a good thing, far better than having a weak government. As for law enforcement, I hold the APD in low regard for their violation of people’s civil rights. Get your facts right.

  110. travelah

    September Girl, I failed to remove my tongue from cheek after writing that …. don’t take everything so seriously

  111. William P Miller

    I hold the APD in HIGH regard. They are a professional force and very tolerant of the folks who “keep Asheville weird”. Contrast to the NYPD, a force full of corruption, and brutality. Oh wait, I forgot, yankees can do what they want and not be held accountable. That’s right, the South we can learn from NYC. NOT! -:) (tongue now out of cheek)

  112. “I hold the APD in HIGH regard. They are a professional force and very tolerant of the folks who “keep Asheville weird”. Contrast to the NYPD, a force full of corruption, and brutality. Oh wait, I forgot, yankees can do what they want and not be held accountable. That’s right, the South we can learn from NYC. NOT! -:) (tongue now out of cheek)”

    What’s your official stance on Medford? Or that sheriff in Madison ten years ago?

  113. david

    oooooohh, saucy, travelah and willy p disagree on the quality of APD law enforcement. Which one will turn out to be the TRUEST southerner? stay tuned…

  114. travelah

    david, are you a teenaged adolescent? I usually regard young people in a more allowable light.

  115. oh come on

    you’re as bad as miller, just making assumptions about a persons’ age and nationality and place of birth and who knows what else based on….what exactly?
    “oh nothing; it’s just typically an adolescent teenaged yankee transplant neo-communist homosexual guido that’s the first one to try and have a sense of humor about these things. no self-respecting adult southerner would dare make such a jab at a time like this.”
    gimme a break dude.

  116. travelah

    oh come on, there is nothing in my post about any assumptions nor anything else you typed on your blank sheet.

  117. david

    jeeez, travelah, I failed to remove my tongue from cheek after writing that …. don’t take everything so seriously.

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