Letter: Politically correct is not always accurate

Write to Mountain Xpress
Graphic by Lori Deaton

In response to your clarifying “note” on D.A. King’s letter [“Word Choice Insults ‘Real Immigrants,’” May 16, Xpress]: Your choice of words describing people who flout our immigration laws (repeatedly) is dictated by The Associated Press, the media’s correct terminology gatekeeper. Deemed to be “unacceptable” by the AP are terms such as “alien” or “undocumented.” These terms are both legal and accurate by any standard. But the AP, and all those who bow to its “standard of usage,” considers these terms to be improper, even hurtful.

I’m curious what other class of lawbreakers does the AP dictate should not be offended by terms which describe their behavior? Bank robber, identity thief, murderer, rapist, drunk driver, arsonist, trafficker in illegal drugs and humans to be used as sex “workers” come to mind as possible terminology “cleansing” by the AP.

This is not a rhetorical question. Undocumented alien is just as legitimate a descriptive as any of the words used for any other crime, which describes the criminal and the crime. And “they’re human” doesn’t prevent the use of those other terms. Illegal entry by an alien in violation of our generous immigration laws makes them an “illegal alien” by any test of logic.

— B.E. Vickroy
Rogers, Ark.

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53 thoughts on “Letter: Politically correct is not always accurate

  1. boatrocker

    At the end of the day, who cares what you call them? Semantics be darned.
    Our policy of separating children from parents to house them in abandoned
    buildings like prisoners is wrong.
    Our policy of denying refugee status for abuse, gang violence or ya know,
    a war happening in Syria is wrong.

    If that jesus dude is watching, he isn’t happy as they are his children.
    That, and the eyes of the world are upon us. And the UN isn’t happy either,
    but right wing weirdos don’t seem to care about either one. Mulligan time.

    See, the real issue isn’t about legal or illegal immigration, crime, welfare, etc.
    It’s about the recent backlash against anyone who looks, speaks, dresses, eats,
    prays diff’rnt than the red baseball hat crowd and whose actions are supported
    by the current administration.

    Don’t believe me? Just watch.

    I was born of legal citizens in the United States of America.
    Both sides of my family migrated from Scotland in the mid/late 1600’s,
    and please spare me the incest/banjo jokes. They had never met before 1970.
    I pay taxes, work local jobs, actually live within the delivery area (ahem)
    of the MX.

    As Salaam Alaikum………..

    • B.E.Vickroy

      Hi Boatrocker with a nod to the jocular tone of this thread – a snip from GUYS AND DOLLS[ https://youtu.be/7F7_VvMlddk ] apropos your moniker.
      And as regards your comment about how wrong the treatment of some children at the border is, it is topped in shamefulness by the decades of pandering/waffling/obfuscating on the issue of secure borders, that make their parents believe that coming here illegally is safe and OK. Even more awful is the treatment given to in-migrants toward the people who pay them as guides to cross the borders. Just as an example: little girls, as young as 9yrs who are smuggled in for the “sex-trade” especially designed to meet the needs of MILLIONS of illegal alien men. You ask, how could their parents allow them to travel alone on this dangerous journey? The coyotes [human traffickers] tell them the girls are going to be maids in a rich household and send back money for the family ] And even more contemptible are those who become the tools [aka useful idiots] of the elites in many countries for whom illegal immigration is nothing more than an economic issue [9yr old girls – collateral damage] These “tools” are mostly folks who are clueless about the REAL issue at hand [nothing less than national sovereignty – with serious humanity issues thrown in] and spout fine-sounding, pseudo-religious-catchphrases to opine in venues such as this. Or worse yet, to press local, state, and federal officials to DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING to ameliorate a problem created by all the points of awfulness I’ve described above. Oh, and don’t forget the favorite tool of the “TOOLS” calling those who disagree names … the more arcane, the better — like XENOPHOBE [fear of strangers] for instance. Well, I’ve gone on long enough about just your first comment, but based on the mindless hatred I have been spouting, you can fill in the blanks. adios [go with God]

      • B.E.Vickroy

        Boatrocker — just one more ‘hit’ on your series of ‘hits’ — OK, I get it, you hate ‘The Donald’. But surely you know that agitation about border issues far precedes him and his MAGA red hats. For instance — you’re probably heard of “Operation Wetback” instituted by President Eisenhower. Yet, would you believe, that the city of Chula Vista [right on the border, with a majority population of Latinos] annually has a picnic in a park dedicated to Eisenhower. [complete with speeches, music and food-to-die-for] Why don’t they hate his very name? Maybe because illegal in-migration is up-close-and-uncomfortable with them.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback kind of interesting stuff. And BTW Eisenhower – just returned from WW2,- knew a thing or two about national security

    • B.E.Vickroy

      B,,,,,,,R Well you and I seem to be the only ones giving my letter a serious look-see. It could be that in the last few letters and comments, we have beaten this poor dead horse – ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION – one too many times. But, though you and I will butt heads over this issue – what it means, how to deal with it, who is responsible, who should care – at least you were thoughtful enough to make some sincere comments. Thanks.
      But on to my rebuttal to your comment about Jesus, His children and the watching world.
      First, Jesus has spoken many times [OT & NT] about borders and about nations [can’t have a nation wi/o borders] And he thinks they are great – in fact that’s how he planned it. But as to the treatment of children immigrants, you are right that it is shameful. But as I said in a previous post, there is blame enough to go around on that issue, and not all of it lies at our door.
      As to the “eyes of the world being upon us”. REALLY? Would that be the civilized [?] world that we [the blood of our youth] have bailed out in 2 world wars, a costly and deadly Cold War, and now they are looking to us to take a stand against militant Islam – while they carp and whine about how, when, and why we are bailing them out? THAT WORLD? I suspect that far more than “right wing weirdos” are tone deaf to their complaints and criticism. Have you noticed that Europe is having some major problems with the millions of refugees that have recently embraced? They are probably too busy dealing with and regretting that, to spend much time criticizing us. Oh, never mind, good old USA is always good for a good guilt attack. AND as for the UN …. oh puleeez! That toothless, worthless, expensive [you fill in the blanks, I’m too refined ]. To bad, so sorry, who cares, good bye.

      • boatrocker

        I will say you have a rather unique interpretation of history.

        -Operation Wetback, 1954 sadly resulted in hundreds of citizens being illegally deported
        without due process aka being able to offer proof of citizenship. Eisenhower did have some
        great points about the ever festering Military Industrial Complex in his farewell address.

        -I don’t hate the POTUS- I have never met him. I do however disagree with his trifecta policies of
        incompetence, cruelty and corruption. The party of Lincoln that NY values spoiled rich boy ain’t.

        -It is a popular conservative myth that the US ‘saved the world’ during both world wars vs. us
        sitting back as the initial shots were fired, profiteering off both sides and only entering both wars
        after our own physical interests (ie the Lusitania or ships at a naval base) were attacked.

        -Trashing the UN- straight out of the wacko far right playbook. Peace ain’t cheap, and those
        who value wasting $ (taxes) at home on a bloated military budget vs. abroad preventing kids in 3rd world countries being killed would do well to question their support for Vietnam/Iraq wars as well
        as their own relationship with that jesus guy.

        -Or as some know him, that Middle Eastern born illegal immigrant (yep, his parents were fleeing a geopolitically unstable nation rife with wars, famines, babykillins and jesus had no green card.

        -Just to summarize: separating families, denying clear cases of abuse/violence for refugee status and border patrols shooting un armed immigrants is not cool an no amount of Bible quotes or reminiscence of “well I knew this one guy, veteran, real nice for a Mexican” can square it.

        • B.E.Vickroy

          Boatrocker — As usual a comment with many points to [try to] answer. Re; the facts about Operation Wetback …. the point I was making is that in spite of the problems [OK, injustices] involved, the people in the heavily Hispanic city honor the man who instituted it. And, having spent many a pleasant hour in Chula-Juana’s library, concerts in the park events – I know how many of those folks feel about current [well, about 5 years ago] border security efforts. You surely know that some very unsavory types hang out on both sides of any border … and make life very difficult for the honest citizens. And they welcome the protection provided by a secure border That is the point I wanted to make – these folks know better than most the deleterious effectS of illegal in-migration. [And you do know about the whole Drug Cartel ‘thing’ …another powerful reason for border SECURITY. Re: Eisenhower’s comments about ‘military-industrial-complex.’ Amen on that! I would add Education to that equation , and [this will surprise you], a corporetized religious structure …. and in case you didn’t know, JESUS didn’t like -religion- in those days and left warnings about what to expect in our days. – Re: the timing and reasons for our entry into both world wars. The plain fact is that wi/o the manpower, manufacturing, and funding from the US, both wars would have been won by Germany. Yes, I know that the Russian front was an important factor, but again, without the materials and $$ from the US, they would not have been as effective. Re: “holding back….profiteering…..etc” I’m sure that profiteering did go on, but the ‘holding back’ was mostly due to Isolationism very prevalent in the US Please see the link below for more about the non-intervention mind-set within our leaders and people. Europe has been entangled in wars for century upon century, and our early leaders wanted no part in coming in on one or the other side “entangled”. So, I believe that the remnant of that prudent resolve was one reason for holding back before entering. Another is, as I understand, because of the equally powerful policy/opinion to not keep a “standing army”, at the onset of both wars we were very unprepared. Plenty of books detailing that. And the Lusitania and Pearl Harbor attacks made it politically possible/necessary for POTUS/Congress to enter the wars. Re: “Trashing the UN” no point in debating that … right and wrong enough to make your point AND mine. But as for my questioning my relationship with JESUS because of man’s failure to find peace/economic equilibrium – NO WAY, NO HOW! I’ll spare you the details, but my ‘relationship’ with Him is on a firm basis of personal EXPERIENCE. Nuff said. Re: “….I new…. real nice FOR AN MEXICAN” Now you stepped in it!!!
          For your information, [and you might have guessed it if you had read his LATimes commentary,] Jesse was the smartest man I have ever known[Mex or Anglo] . I LOVED him and only our mutual age/health issues kept us from marrying. enough.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_non-interventionism#No_entangling_alliances_(19th_century)

  2. John Penley

    1. ARKANSAS ASPHALT
    Like Rodney Dangerfield, Arkansas gets no respect, at least in terms of regional insults. In the 1960s and earlier, Texas oilmen apparently “found conditions in Arkansas particularly primitive,” according to a quote in DARE, and referred to roads made of logs laid side by side as Arkansas asphalt. Another ironic Texas term is Arkansas dew, meaning a sudden heavy rain (check out even more regional idioms for heavy rain here). In Oklahoma, diarrhea might be known as Arkansas travels, while in Southern California, an Arkansas fire extinguisher is a chamberpot.

    • boatrocker

      Yet I actually can sit down, munch popcorn,
      watch and respect a Rodney Dangerfield movie.

      • B.E.Vickroy

        OMG ! I wonder if there is any state that doesn’t have a collection of “Little Audrey”-like jokes [she just laughed and laughed because……punch line] The reason I’m so amazed at the yahoo reaction is that I was born in California, and lived there for most of my 80 years, so the Arkansas jokes are new to me. [did you hear the one about the little old lady from the Ozarks? ][that’s me]
        But living side-by-side with many wonderful 1st and 2nd generation Latinos, whose communities and very culture are colonized by MILLIONS of illegal in-migrants, I [and they] know that this is no laughing matter.
        But along lines more in keeping with the ability of some to communicate, you’re probably familiar with ‘LAND OF FRUITS AND NUTS’ jokes about CA, but if any of you folks need some ammunition to discuss [in your own very special way] a serious issue, here are a bunch of knee-slappers that will entertain you, while others give sincere consideration to a serious issue.
        http://www.jokes4us.com/miscellaneousjokes/worldjokes/californiajokes.html
        And with tears in my eyes at the memory of a much-loved compadre, who was no stranger to jokes and innuendo because of his defense of both the America that he served in two wars, and the wonderful Mexican culture that nurtured him. And BTW, all of his 5 daughters are more right-wing than I am [hard to do] and far more outspoken about the “blankety-blank aliens who fill their children’s schools and bully them because they aren’t Chicano-enough.” And those who pander-to the rich elites on both sides of the border in order to make a quick buck, come in for much stronger language BLANKETY-BLANKETY-BLANK !
        http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/pub/Immigration/EffOnMinorities/Laguna.html

        • B.E.Vickroy

          My goodness, will this old lady never stop? Just one more, honest. My dear friend Jesse Laguna took me to the DON DIEGO VFW in San Diego’s BARRIO LOGAN. [a looong way from Ark] Most impressive are the pictures of Medal winners that adorn the walls of their meeting hall.
          Just reading the short bio on each picture makes you know what a REAL HERO is. Unimaginable courage and daring! I venture that your jokes would dry up in your throats, when looking at HERO after HERO. And though you might not realize it, when you denigrate an issue that affects them and their families so keenly, you dishonor their service.
          Though I haven’t been there for some time, I would guess that a fair number of vets would be wearing a red MAGA hat. The issue of illegal immigration is neither new nor academic to them. And standing tall under fire is not fearful to them – they’ve seen REAL bullets. These website links have some good sound effects.
          http://www.dondiegopost7420.org/
          http://www.dondiegopost7420.org/82nd-airborne-honor-guard.html

  3. Enlightened Enigma

    I still say that another 50 year moratorium on any more immigration would be great for America. We did it once before from the 1920s -1960s, then the flood gates opened in the 80s…enough.

    • B.E.Vickroy

      Enlightened Indeed! But the cries of “WE * ARE * A * NATION *OF * IMMIGRANTS” [martial drum roll ] would ring out from corporate, academic , social, and religious America. [the fact that past generations have cut immigration to a trickle – and the benefits derived from that “rest period” will disappear in the din.] This brings to mind something that Thomas Paine wrote in the Intro to “COMMON SENSE” : “… a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason” Though Paine was discussing Royal Kingship’s hold on the minds of men, as well as the economic and military power over them — these words seem to me to well-describe the current state of affairs on Immigration and the ideas and myths that surround it. The word itself has become almost a Holy Icon to define what it means to be American. And as for the last part of his statement about “time making more converts than reason” I fear that time may be running out, to curb/control our generation’s – wrong, long-thought-right – issue. The plain fact is that we cannot let in the entire population of the world’s oppressed/endangered people who want to come here. By so doing, we would so irretrievably alter the nature and substance of our nation, the it will not be a haven of freedom, but a place to be feared and escaped from. Enigma — Thanks for you comments. As you can tell from my monopolizing this thread, I have a sense of urgency about this issue – which affects every part of our national and personal life. I’ll probably ‘shuffle-off’ before the problem becomes too intense, but fear for my children and theirs. It’s still “on my watch”. See the link below to re-read Paine’s pamphlet.
      https://www.learner.org/workshops/primarysources/revolution/docs/Common_Sense.pdf

  4. Stan Hawkins

    I was downtown Asheville this afternoon running some errands. I could not find a place to park near city / county plaza. Wanda (Greene) May have given parking spaces away to all her beloved, but I digress.

    There were plenty of no parking spaces and many reserved spaces for the local civic Government gentry. As I double parked hoping to catch someone exiting, I noticed a curious looking fellow walking around with a meter looking device. He was not in uniform (think under cover) but he was writing parking tickets left and right (think law enforcement). It seemed I was in a vortex of government control over “space” (think borders). I moved on to avoid his watchful eye (think border guard).

    Then it hit me. Asheville considers it’s public spaces as their property (think borders) and they are hell bent on policing parking (think guarding) with maximum revenue in the budget. Now, just think if we can turn our southern border into a similar revenue producing bonanza we can solve this problem lickety split.

    I am sure there are times when drivers have to drop off there family members (think separate) because they cannot find a place to park. Occasionally cars get towed (there are warning signs about $125 tow) because they overstay their allotted time (think over stayed visa) or have parked illegally. What do we call an illegal parker in Asheville? I guess we would just call them an illegal parker.

    It seems like Asheville would be more receptive to accepting all comers who enter the fair city and accommodate their parking. Wouldn’t business owners appreciate more consumer traffic? Perhaps folks have traveled a great distance and would just like a respite.

    I’m curious, just how many signs are in Asheville that have the word NO written on it? That seems awful to have so many ordinances and have people walking around enforcing them. Oh well.

    • B.E.Vickroy

      Stan — Age ago, when I was 8, and my father was stationed nearby in the Navy, our family lived for one summer in Asheville. I recall warm summer rain, blackberry patched, swimming hole, CHIGGERS, and friendly, helpful people. After many more years, I’m finding a semblance of those things here in the Ozarks [CHIGGERS & TICKS, oh my] I take your comparison to border security issues in your everyday life [clever]. Truth to tell, everything in our natural, physical, and social infrastructure are impacted by unrestrained – unsustainable immigration. But maybe the most damage that is done is to how we feel about ourselves as a nation and as a people. Too easy to blame and too easy to resort to angry self-defense. Hmmm … do you mean that there is something wrong in considering our borders as ours? The federal mandate to ensure the integrity of our borders is meant to be in the behalf of we citizens. “Meant to be” has many hidey-holes and loop holes for greed, corruption, and downright evil to morph the that constitutionally required mandate into a creature that does not resemble its intent – to secure border integrity and regulate a population at assimilatable levels. The Melting Pot doesn’t work with too many new comers. And the matter of legal/illegal is a whole ‘nother thing. Well, summer she is icumen in … and there is always tomorrow to hope for.

    • Peter Robbins

      Maybe start calling them “illegal toddlers” so people would understand the treatment they deserve?

    • B.E.Vickroy

      Peter — the link you provide goes to Washington Post, which requires paid admittance — OMG entrance requirements to access their site! WaPo is almost always opposed to EFFECTIVE measures to prevent illegal in-migration.
      Without benefit of reading the article, do I take it from your question that by whatever terminology used to describe illegal in-migration, the effect/impact [plus/minus] is pretty much the same?
      Borrowed from an online source :– “Why terminology is important. Carefully defined terminology enables people in a particular field to communicate clearly. A common understanding of terms allows people to communicate ideas more rapidly with less need for lengthy explanations. This requires a common understanding of important terms”
      When the media and officialdom restrict which words may/may not be used, they ensure more misunderstanding and less constructive communication.
      The terms under discussion – legal, illegal, immigrant, migrant, alien – all require common understanding in order to prevent costly [as in enacting law or regulations] consequences. When a particular term is clouded-over with emotion/PC strictures, CONSTRUCTIVE communications are at risk.
      And one of those consequences is found in the workforce. One example: 40% of the illegal workers are engaged as Brickmasons, blockmasons, and stonemasons; Similar percentages for many other areas of employment. Roofers, Painters, Carpet layers, and so on and on. These jobs are all work that Americans WILL & WANT to do.
      And as long as the provisions of the 1984 immigration law [the one that thought giving amnesty to 3 million illegals would stem more of the same] which required/promised work-place enforcement, as long as these important measures are labeled as ‘un-American, racist, inhumane, and even longer stretch – un-Christian – no progress will be made and the work that Americans will do, want to, and must do will continue to be collateral damage to what has become a permanent ‘tin-can’ kicked around from election to election.
      Reference:
      https://immigration.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000845#countries

      • Peter Robbins

        Apologies about the paywall. I thought Wapo gave people a few articles free, but maybe that policy has changed.

        The story I linked to was about the treatment of children in border detention facilities. It identifies the affected population with this sentence, fairly early in the story, in what journalists call the nut graf: “The little girl is among the multitude of immigrant children who have been separated from their family as part of the Trump administration’s ‘zero tolerance’ policy, meaning any adult who crosses the border illegally will face criminal prosecution.” In subsequent references, the children are called “immigrant children” or simply “children.”

        I see nothing inaccurate or misleading or confusing in the way this story follows the AP style rules, nor in any other story where out-of-towners have suddenly become deeply offended by Xpress word usage. So, your advice, while appreciated, is not really needed. Here in this part of the mountains, we have a saying: if it ain’t broke, don’t write no letters to the editor. Or something like that.

      • Peter Robbins

        Here’s another story about how the President’s “zero tolerance” policy is breaking up families — this time in the New York Times. Note that the headline kicker does use the words “illegal immigration,” but nowhere did the newspaper find it necessary to use any terminology at odds with the AP stylebook to achieve accuracy or clarity. Readers can judge for themselves. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/17/us/immigration-deported-parents.html?.

        • B.E.Vickroy

          Peter – strike 2 – the NYT also will not allow reading wi/o pay. But I found a reprint in another paper. And you are right, the story had no need for any other terms than those used, for the picture to be understood, as presented. And, while this story is heart breaking [as is often the case when government agencies don’t perform as promised – the VA, for instance] the article goes on to state that the laws pertaining to children and adults is different. One point of interest is that a pattern has developed over time, of adults falsely claiming familial relationships in order to game the system. In some cases the children released into the custody of those adults have been victimized. * reference: ” Others have admitted to posing falsely with children who are not their own, and Border Patrol officials say that such instances of fraud are increasing.”
          Another paper’s story gives less emotion and more information. * “The Trump administration isn’t changing the rules that pertain to separating an adult from the child. Those remain the same. ….. (Illegal entry is a misdemeanor, illegal re-entry a felony.), and thus illegal entrants are treated differently, and this requires different treatment for minor children” [Flores Consent Decree, 1997] Reference:
          https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/05/illegal-immigration-enforcement-separating-kids-at-border/

          And as to your other comments, it is natural to resent “outsiders” from butting in with letters/comments in your local paper. And as to “advice, while appreciated, is not needed”, point taken. Please excuse the intrusion. BTW the “not broken, don’t fix it” saying is used even among “low-landers” in coastal California, a good many of whom in escaping the results of a very BROKEN system, might end up in your lovely hills. My escape and 3 of my adult children have landed us in the Ozarks. [a slice of heaven!] Fair warning: at the present, NC’s illegal immigrant population is only in the thousands [ 342,000] [ CA’s is over 3millions], so you folks don’t feel the heat, YET.

          • Peter Robbins

            So we are agreed. Your advice on newspaper style is neither needed nor helpful. But don’t run off thinking anyone here resents you for it. In this part of the mountains, our language may seem rough and our ways stubborn, but we show hospitality to strangers, for we might could entertain angels unawares.

          • B.E.Vickroy

            Peter — What an lovely olive branch! Truth to tell, I’m ashamed at how I monopolized this discussion thread…..not V-E-R-Y obsessive about this issue, — yes?no? – That’s for dang sure! As for “running off…..”, only if I get a jet-pack on my walker [what a picture that makes! ]

            And if I may impose, still more …. I have been trying to find a news story about a veterinary student – FALLON BLACKWOOD – who perpetrated a very cruel hoax on horse owners in 3 states. [over 50 horses] Her court appearance [in NC] was to be June 11 … and no new stories can be found, since the original stories some months ago. Since the story would be ‘local’ to you, have you seen anything of it in your news? I know this is waywayway off point of discussion and will understand if you don’t respond. :}
            http://www.witn.com/content/news/Alabama-vet-student-charged-in-Eastern-Carolina-horse-scam-479012493.html

  5. boatrocker

    Sorry, maybe it’s that conscience thing, but I’m having trouble letting this one go.
    For the ‘crime’ of sneaking in such that eventual citizenship may happen for
    at least their children via the proper channels, blaming parents for their children being locked up like wild animals in concentration camps, blaming the Dems, Ms. Kirjsten Nielsen at first denying that this was even happening before being confronted with evidence,

    well guess what? Now you can hear the anguished screams of children being forcibly taken from their parents via primary source! You really want to turn up your speakers/phone for this one, as these

    ‘criminals’ are really wailing like they did back then in good ol’ Bible times when ‘nations and laws’ was more important than ‘suffer the children’.
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/listen-to-children-who’ve-just-been-separated-from-their-parents-at-the-border/ar-AAyP6Bj

    Enjoy, if you dare, and praise Jeeeeeezuz.
    This s#%& really makes me question those red hats as they are the new Brown Shirts.

    • B.E.Vickroy

      Boatrocker — Not knowing how to respond to such a collection of opinion wrapped in anger and seasoned with half-truths and pseudo facts … I searched what for me is, a source of guidance – the BIBLE – and obviously that is what I base my arguments on. Proverbs is replete with the wisdom/foolishness of arguing with one whose opinion does not appear to be open to another viewpoint. I will not cite these sources, as it will be counterproductive. I believe, you don’t – OK.
      But if we can agree that millions of illegal in-migrants is not a healthy/wise thing for any sector of our national life – and, that being the case, we have the right/duty to set and enforce rules/laws about who and how many may enter — if we can agree on these, we might have the basis for productive debate.
      Turning to statistics as another source I find useful/instructive. At the time of the 1986 immigration law, which posited that if we gave full amnesty [road to citizenship similar to legal immigrants] to the 2 to 3 million illegal immigrants, that it would discourage more illegal entry.
      The numbers side-by-side are interesting: 1986 – 2.9 million; 1996 – 5 million; 2000 – 8.46 million; 2016 – 11.78 million. Amnesty has not worked.
      The policy of previous administrations was to give a court date to all those who claim to be a family unit and release, pending the court appearance to adjudicate whether or not they may remain. Over time, this proved to be unwise/ineffective due to an increase in the number of people who claim familial relationships in order to ‘game’ the system. This resulted in a number of children being released into the hands of an adult who was not only NOT a family member, but would go on to harm the child [drug-mule, sex-worker]. The law requires that people who are entering after having been deported, be treated as felons, and any minors with them to be held separately. That being the case separating ALL minors from adults is the only workable policy.
      Which brings us to today. Since bringing minors along as a virtual ‘free pass’ has become the norm, the sheer numbers require a different approach. Fair warning was given that the new administration would have “zero-tolerance” for ALL illegal entrants, and treat ALL illegal entrants as criminal. But the tide of minors has only increased [encourage by the very folks who are now screaming about injustice/inhumane policies] Plain fact is that had they not come, there would be no separation, no being expelled. That decision was made by adults in behalf of minors, not by any United States policy/official.

  6. boatrocker

    OK then. I don’t ask anyone here to bend to my primary source facts.

    But if you unconditionally support a Trump policy of kidnapping kids,
    keeping them apart from parents in latter-day Japanese interment camps,
    quote a book of made up fairy tales to justify it,
    well, by your own logic, there’s going to be a lake of fire somewhere for you soon.
    Immigrant brown skinned Middle Eastern born Jeeezuz isn’t happy right now, and he told me so.
    I’ll be happy to cite a Bible or two in order to source to suit my needs as even the Devil quotes Scripture
    to suit His needs.

    You should physically visit Asheville one of these days vs. trolling.
    PS how did the screams of detained kids sound for a
    primary source?

    • B.E.Vickroy

      Here we go again — I’m not sure if writing from outside of Asheville area qualifies as ‘trolling’, but I HAVE visited your beautiful area about 74 years ago. Not up-to-date on current conditions, but for my many years as an ARID So.Californian, your beautiful GREEN mountains have been the benchmark for beauty in my mind. Does that un-troll me?
      Re: “unconditional support of kidnapping kids….” Here is a link to the “cages’ used in President Obama’s day. Your unconditional ‘thing’ apply here? http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/06/18/photos-obama-used-same-so-called-cages-to-detain-child-border-crossers/
      The reality is that family detention— is not new. It existed during George W. Bush’s presidency and expanded dramatically under President Obama. In my previous comment I told why the ‘catch and release’ policy for ‘family units’ has been made impossible because of illegals ‘gaming the system’.
      Link to images of 2014 holding centers: [ “Although [Texas] detention centers had been used long before [2014], that year the Obama administration made them key to its immigration policy. ”
      https://us-east-1.tchyn.io/snopes-production/uploads/2018/05/kidsprison.jpg?w=900
      Link to conversation between an immigration lawyer and Obama. When the lawyer lodged a complain against ‘detention camps’ for the hundreds of illegal border-crossers, Obama said, ” I’ll tell you what we can’t have, It’s these parents sending their kids here on a dangerous journey and putting their lives at risk.” Of course, the media wasn’t swamped with tales of the horrors perpetrated on innocent families by a president who could do no wrong in their eyes. It is the monster Trump who is the target of their outrage.
      http://www.businessinsider.com/zero-tolerance-border-crisis-immigration-trump-obama-detention-centers-2018-6

      • B.E.Vickroy

        Boatrocker — one FINAL [?] comment in response to: “PS how did the screams of detained kids sound for a primary source?” In my years as a Montessori teacher [THE BEST PLACE IN THE WORLD] I have heard many screams. “No, Mommy don’t leave me ….Mommy where are you?…..Mommmeeee!” If one were to record some of those screams, a case could be made for the injustice perpetrated on children by their parent. Just saying that recorded screams are not reliable “source materials”. And it is probable that some screaming arose from frightened children in the Obama-era centers. And Obama’s comment to the immigration lawyer is as true today as it ever was. Parents put their children in this situation.

          • B.E.Vickroy

            And yet again —
            I agree. ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that encourages open borders is beyond gross, it is EVIL as it plays out in the lives on both sides of the border.
            -1- Open to drugs — where is the outrage at the little 8 year old Los Angeles girl who was killed by stray bullets from gang warfare? Drugs=Gangs. Gross?
            -2- Open to drugs — where is the outrage over the hundreds of thousands of our youth whose lives have been destroyed by drugs; brought by the ton across criminally open borders?
            -3- Open to millions of illegal workers who STEAL [through unfair wages paid to desperate people] the work of blue-collar Americans. Where is the outrage over the economic chaos this brings to millions of Americans?
            -4- Kept Open by the elite, greed-driven class of people on both sides of the border. PUSH people out through corrupt and venal practices. PULL them in through equally corrupt and venal actions. Outrage?
            -5- Kept Open by the media-driven hysteria over who is responsible for enforcing border security and who is responsible for Pushing desperate people into the Pulling, welcoming arms of greedy/corrupt employers. Gross?
            -6- AND Kept Open by the ‘industry’ , which has sprung up of providing phony documents [identity theft] to those millions caught in the PUSH-PULL maelstrom. Caused by #s 1-5
            -7- Kept Open on the backs of those whose lives have not only been disrupted by the PUSH-PULL syndrome, but but in the crushed hearts of bereaved parents and family when their loved one falls under the wheels of this juggernaut. Like for instance, the little 4 year old Mexican boy who smothered in a truck-trailer filled with illegals, abandoned by a cowardly driver. 17 human beings died that day.
            EXCERPT from my letter to La Prensa San Diego in 2004
            “…..I’ve pointed my angry finger of blame at politicians, hypocritical churchmen, and greedy employers. But there is blame enough to go around. Each of us who remains silent or allows the argument to be sidetracked into a race-baiting boneyard. We also deserve to hear that little boy’s last gasps and the little girl’s cry for her Mommie, as we smugly label those who seek a solution to be racists. The little boy and the little girl were different races, but they are both dead, and neither set of parents needs a special day to observe their deaths.
            http://www.laprensa-sandiego.org/archieve/september17-04/elforo.htm

  7. Peter Robbins

    One last story. This one describes, without using any of the terms against which the AP Stylebook recommends, how badly the President has mangled things when it comes to immigration enforcement and separating families. The story does use the word “alien,” but only when quoting the President’s most recent Executive Order (which he said earlier the same day he didn’t have authority to issue). That’s okay under the style rules, so no foul. Enjoy, everybody. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/06/trump-executive-order-border-separations/563303/.

  8. boatrocker

    Allegations of abused children as young as 14 from a Staunton, VA child detainee prison include
    (but full investigations cannot be conducted until child advocates are actually granted physical access):

    -beatings
    -racial taunts for Latino children
    -being stripped nude
    -bags placed over heads of teens
    -solitary isolation with no beds
    -taunts of Latino children to take their own lives
    -detainee children are forced to change other detainees’ diapers
    -being handcuffed to chairs
    -1 hr recreation time
    -no access to basic hygeine

    How so very Jeeeezuzy. American prisoners in state and federal prisons are not treated this way.
    As for Guantanamo Bay, possibly.
    Inhumane.
    Barbaric.
    Disgusting.
    Stomach turning.
    Nuremberg Defense-like ‘just following orders!’

    Again I ask, who supports this and what kind of monsters cover for it?
    Especially as the POTUS finally caved and signed an executive order to
    rescind it. just yesterday.
    Sad empty justifications on this thread, especially from anyone old enough to have lived through WWII.

    May I offer an in-character Trump like Tweet?

    WEAK APPEASING not strong Flip Floppy Trump caved and showed their belly as over 70% of legal Americans across party lines felt this policy was awful yesterday. DIDN’T WIN. LOST. LOSERS!Those who supported this policy in thought or actions UNPATRIOTIC- lock them up lock them up. HUMANITY WON though now only difference is we at least put kids together with their parents in our internment camps. Small victory but WINNING so much tired of winning.

  9. boatrocker

    Aw crap I forgot about allegations of forcibly shooting detainee kids under the age of consent up with ketamine, a psychotropic drug (and horse tranquilizer) for behavior modification purposes without parental consent.
    Prison officials call it a ‘chemical straightjacket’.

    Children.

    Children.

    Sounds MKULTRA to me, but maybe I just haven’t read the right Breitbart “News” sources cited here.

    • B.E.Vickroy

      B – You list a series of allegations from a lawsuit & cite as “primary source”[see link below]
      But some FACTS gleaned from the suit’s verbiage are instructive.
      Timeline for ‘Doe’s detainment :
      — AUG 5//15 – sent to detention in San Antonio [Baptist care facility]
      — JAN 10/16 – sent to facility in NYC.
      — MAR 24/16 sent to general unit of VA facility [lawsuit defendant]
      — APR 15/16 moved to “secure” unit of VA facility. Doe remains at this unit to this date [date suit was filed OCT 4/17]

      So, without verifying the truth of the allegations, it is undeniable FACT that all but 9 months of Doe’s travails [B4 lawsuit] were at the hands of another president – O not T

      link to lawsuit John Doe v Shenandoah Valley Juvenile Center
      https://www.wileyrein.com/assets/htmldocuments/Shenandoah%20Valley%20Complaint.pdf

      • boatrocker

        Nuremberg Defense again is it?
        I pack a lunch to go all day for humane treatment of young humanspawn.

        • B.E.Vickroy

          B – Your previous comment, [quote — “Allegations of abused children as young as 14 from a Staunton, VA child detainee prison”] seems to give the impression that the list of claimed atrocities are being committed against youngsters on the border TODAY and that all those CLAIMED atrocities should be laid at the feet of the monster Trump. [quote “Trump policy of kidnapping kids”]
          —-Please acknowledge that President Obama was [the monster] at the helm when the person bringing those claims was first caught crossing illegally, and brought to the VA facility that you reference in you comment.
          —-BTW you have not responded to my post [quote “asking if we can agree that millions of illegal in-migrants is not a healthy/wise thing for any sector of our national life – and, that being the case, we have the right/duty to set and enforce rules/laws about who and how many may enter”] Can you answer that question without slipping into references to Nazis? I won’t hold my breath.
          —-And FINALLY , I speak from my own experience having lived with and studied this issue for 50 years. I have spent my own LIMITED money and my time helping immigrants … and especially those with children. The editor of La Prensa San Diego knew my work and we agreed on many issues. I lived all of my childhood and adulthood with and among dear dear Mexican Americans. They and their problems are more real to me than you can imagine. I get the impression that your information and outrage are gathered from a media that is often biased [as an example of that, do you recall anything the current hysteria over children at the border when Pres. Obama was doing the same thing?] So, this is the end of this exchange, on my part. Though I feel sure you will have some tried and true references to what you have been taught [and apparently inflexibly believe] is the [sinister,selfish,inhumane]motive behind a desire for border security … and after the Amnesty in 1986 failed to curtail illegal in-migration, and many efforts along the way to today have failed. Putting the blame for children being held, where it belongs – on their parents is long overdue. adios

          • Peter Robbins

            Which Trump administration position on family separation are you trying to defend — the one that said we’re not doing it; the one that said we have to do it; the one that said we should do it, even though we have better and cheaper options; the one that said we were doing it, but we’re not doing it anymore because we love the kids; the one that said Obama did it, too, just not as much; the one that said we’re shocked, shocked to find there’s gambling going on; or the one that said I DON’T CARE, DO U?

          • B.E.Vickroy

            Peter — For starters….. Question; what are some of the “BETTER AND CHEAPER WAYS” to enforce immigration laws [enacted by our Congress], and ensure border integrity? [which, to clarify, handling people who come across the border wi/o permission – in the tens of thousands WEEKLY, – requires that they be held to sort out their claims – and a 1997 law says that children cannot be held in the same facility as adults.] Please list these BETTER ways to handle this part of the problem.

            Re: “HAVE TO DO IT” Yes, I do support this method because the mindset on both sides of the border that anyone can come anytime they want ..” It Is Their Human Right,” after all, forces our hand. That fixed-idea has been created and nurtured over time by DECADES of lax preventative methods, well-intended measures, which too often backfire with consequences that make things worse, or measures deliberately intended to obfuscate things, which, as a result, are deduced to be too difficult, too complex to handle. And the can is kicked down the road to yet another CRISIS to be “handled” by yet another sapless Congress. The the open-border mind-set becomes stronger and almost an “unwritten law” – a “force of nature” – a “human right”. And as a consequence, national sovereignty becomes meaningless.

            So, YES, though it is harsh, after decades of being “reasonable”, this method becomes necessary — both as a deterrent to future WAVES of border-rushers, and as a way to handle those Tens-of-thousands WEEKLY in the best way possible. Perfect? No. But, I ask again, which methods you think would serve the purpose better?

            Re: the motto on Mrs. T’s jacket – I can’t explain how inexcusably tone-deaf that is. She surely knows that every thing she does and wears will be examined by the media. And though maybe trendy and edgy, ” I DON’T CARE, DO U? ” should not be in her wardrobe, let alone be worn at this time. inexplicable

            And finally I am not Trump, nor is he the nation … a nation of immigrants, as we often hear. But Trumpisms aside, the issue at hand should be border security and how to handle it in today’s climate. And to free [legal] IMMIGRATION from the burden of ILLEGAL IN-MIGRATION and make it meaningful/beneficial again.

            I’m sorry to have missed a few of your questions … but have as usual gone on long enough already. saludos

    • B.E.Vickroy

      Phillip …. what is the headline on that article? I can’t read WaPo wi/o payment [no can do] but sometimes can do a Google News search on a headline and find the same story re-printed in another paper.

      But I did find another story in my search for the WaPo story, which tells about some families who are thinking twice about crashing the border because of the zero-tolerance, and they fear being separated for any period of time from their children. Which is the hoped-for effect of “zero tolerance”.
      A man from El Salvador—“You leave with the intention of going to the United States, where you can improve your life and that of your sons,” he said, flanked by his two boys, Axel, 9, and Steven, 3. “But as things stand today, it’s difficult, because if you get caught, they take your kids away. I think I’m going to stay here, in Mexico, and establish myself.” https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration-mexico/in-mexico-trumps-child-separations-trigger-wrenching-decisions-idUSKBN1JG06K

      And, as my friend Jesse Laguna often said – “Most people think that Heaven is a wonderful place and hope to enter there. BUT even Heaven has entry requirements”. Another of his sayings, which perfectly describes the effect of individual stories when multiplied by millions. “In every avalanche, each beautiful snowflake pleads innocent”.

      • Phillip Williams

        Ma’am, the headline is “Mexican kids held for months as punishment for border-crossing” – the details I was referring to were 1) the date of the article’s publication and 2) the number and tone of the comments….I am not a Post subscriber, but had no trouble opening that particular article…

    • B.E.Vickroy

      Phillip — One point that I saw was the conflating of data for asylum-seekers with data for –“80% of **those that are coming here illegally ** never show up for court and are never deported.” Apples & Oranges.

      Two separate groups, with differing dynamics. Mixing stats on these 2 groups makes for more confusion and anger. In addition to these confusions is the increase in the number of asylum-seekers.[often found to be a way to ‘game’ the system.]

      Add to these confusions is the sheer number of illegals [adults with children & unaccompanied minors] who are rushing the border each day. How to deal effectively with these huge numbers is a major part of the problem, not evil intentions by one political party, as is widely opined and believed. And BTW immigration laws require detainees who have previously been deported to be treated differently than new detainees, including those with children. More complexities piled onto confusion and misunderstanding. And all exacerbated by a media seeking sensation above all else.
      “American immigration courts have the highest failure to appear rates ….. U.S. immigration courts are not functioning right, in the interests of the United States as well as the interests of the people who appear before the courts. The findings are that over the last 20 years, 37 percent of all litigants who were free pending trial failed to show up for their hearings….. with 542,000 backlogged cases today, a 300 percent increase over the 186,000 backlogged cases in 2008….. ….From the 2,498,375 foreign nationals outside detention during their court proceedings, 1,219,959 were ordered removed, 75 percent of them (918,098) for failing to appear.” [ 4/16/18 report by the Center for Immigration Studies]

      Another source: “Ninety percent of the mostly-teen illegal immigrants flooding over the Mexico-U.S. border won’t show up for their immigration court hearing, meaning at least 135,000 of the youths will simply vanish into the country this year alone” [ House Judiciary Chairman, Rep. Bob Goodlatte] — Goodlatte estimated that 150,000 of the youths will cross the border this year, 10 times last year’s number, and virtually all are claiming to be crime victims in their home countries.

      The logistics of sorting-out claimed family relationships and claims of dire situation requiring asylum, combined with a seriously polarized nation, will practically ensure that whatever is DONE, it will not be enough, and may even make matters worse. But, just DO SOMETHING band aide. feel good laws and policies are just more of the SAME OLD SAME OLD.

      • Phillip Williams

        Yes Ma’am….the Goodvibes Bandwagon du Jour…..this week it has been the border. And some figure that “open borders” will fix everything.

        So what if a few human traffickers, sex slavers, drug mules, and assorted other “coyotes” get across? There aren’t any of those types anyhow. I mean, are we just that afeard of toddlers?? Didn’t you know all of these kids are under 10 years old??

        And better that kids who arrived at the border unaccompanied just be let go – surely they can find their folks in the States without being detained.

        And those who arrive with adults who may not be their parents, and who may have actually kidnapped or otherwise coerced the children into coming with them, hoping they’d be a ticket into the States…meh…those are the minority – better that 1 or 2 of them wind up as companions for pedophiles or become prostitutes-in-training than to inconvenience the majority of them by even attempting to sort anything out. After all – we ought to become a Nation of feelings instead of a Nation of laws.

        And of course you know they are kept in CAGES like dogs all day long – they get maybe an hour in the exercise yard – you saw the PICTURES din’t cha?? Maybe they’ll even get marched off to the showers….I mean, Joe Scarborough and Michael Hayden said it, so it must be true…Next we’ll be seeing those stacks of bodies ready for burning, or mass burial – and perhaps the Border Patrol will have the presence of mind to at least salvage their jewelry and shoes and pull any gold teeth they may have.

        But worry not, certain folks with their incessant jibes and gambols and flashes of merriment are wont to set the table at a roar – and those repeated incantations that include references to the outdoors, other people’s song lyrics, and that clever, intentional misspelling of the Name of Jesus – this will surely bring us all together and put us on the same wavelength.

        • B.E.Vickroy

          Phillip – OMG …… can you hear my laughter clear from Ark? Sometimes more can be CLEARLY conveyed with some well-crafted sarcasm than with all the data-heavy, BORING, arguments. But in my defense, you do know that for every decade over 60 one multiplies the words used to convey even so simple a phrase as PLEASE PASS THE SALT. So, all my mega-wordy responses are due to age …… so glad to be able to find something to blame other than myself. …….Remember that the first rule in J. Pierrepont Finch’s handbook for success [wi/o trying] is to FIND SOMEBODY TO BLAME. Apparently too many today are reading/opining/reacting from old JPF’s book. [it’s SOOO easy, and one does need exercise, after all] …. which finally REALLY? Yes, FINALLY – a word of wisdom from Ashleigh Brilliant —” Some people can find all the peace of mind they want in a good satisfying conflict.” Thanks for rounding this can of worms up with some brilliant satire! To “improve your mind” here is a link to some of Brilliant’s POT SHOTS.
          https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.humor/qZCbWQRpCi4

          • Phillip Williams

            Thank you kindly, Ma’am.. I can already tell that I like you!

          • Phillip Williams

            Your reference to J. Pierrepont Finch reminds me of a poster one of my pals kept on his bulletin board – it said: “I didn’t say it was your fault. I said that I am going to blame you.”

          • B.E.Vickroy

            Phillip — we’ve strayed far afield from the primary subject of this text … The AP’s Style Book … ending with Ashleigh Brilliant’s Pot Shots. Thank God for folks who can express our feeling/thoughts/ideas in a humorous way. [as your comment illustrates] “a Nation of feelings instead of a Nation of laws.” … on point! laugh to keep from crying.
            Brilliant’s books got me through some crazy-making times in my life

  10. boatrocker

    Aw fake Gawwwd- I didn’t want to check back in but much like
    Johnny Cash’s
    “Like a fiend with his dope, and a drunkard with his wine,
    a poster has their lust for MAGA hats and their lyin'”.
    (Dark as a Child Dungeon)
    I haaaaaad to see how kids in cages are justified.

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